ISU releases official agenda with proposals for 2024: age limits, jump limits and more

[4everchan]

Replacing 3A with 4A is by far bigger reward for the risk than replacing another quad with a 4A because 4A has a ridiculously low BV. If he replaces 3A, he is immediately ahead of everyone else who can't do it and has to do 3A.

How many skaters do the 4a?

So you'd want the ISU to change the rules to favour one skater.

Wow.. so complaining that the ISU is penalizing IlIa and then asking them to favour him?

 

[lariko]

How many skaters do the 4a?

So you'd want the ISU to change the rules to favour one skater.

Wow.. so complaining that the ISU is penalizing IlIa and then asking them to favour him?

Sure, so more skaters could envision higher jumping content, particularly in juniors. They already rolled the clock back in women, where the wonderful golden era is now replaced by the same old, the girls outprincessing each other. At least give us some forward momentum in men, if women will be a bore fest for the foreseeable.

 

[Mathman]

Yes, of course. Spins are nice too.

Personally, I don' think we should be so quick to dismiss "mere choreography" from the equation.The performer has to have well-developed skating skills in order to master the intricate demands of a well-constructed program.

 

[Mathman]

I wish the proposed changes motivated skaters to do combinations like 4T+3T+3Lo again (Plushenko used to jump this back in the day). These satisfying combinations stopped being worth the risk in 2004 with the introduction of IJS. I want to see three multirotational jumps in a rapid succession, not X+1Eu+3S (or, even worse, X+2A+2A SEQ).

Sorry for getting a little off-topic.

Very much on topic. Thanks for the contribution.

 

[lariko]

Personally, I don' think we should be so quick to dismiss "mere choreography" from the equation.The performer has to have well-developed skating skills in order to master the intricate demands of a well-constructed program.

the leet skaters always have plenty of choreo, with 7 passes. And on the lower tiers, you will just have more empty space instead of a jump. I think it is a totally false assumption that the extra seconds will go to some awe-inspiring choreo that will blow one's mind away, instead of skating with their hands down. Neither cutting a pass can results in bigger or better jumps, because every jumping pass is an independent statistical test of pass/fail. So, we losing something cool, and win zip.

 

[Andrina]

Sure, so more skaters could envision higher jumping content, particularly in juniors. They already rolled the clock back in women, where the wonderful golden era is now replaced by the same old, the girls outprincessing each other. At least give us some forward momentum in men, if women will be a bore fest for

The golden era of fake quads, inflated scores for non-existent PCS, endless injuries, and eating disorders.

 

[4everchan]

The golden era of fake quads, inflated scores for non-existent PCS, endless injuries, and eating disorders.

Could have not said it any better....

 

[lariko]

The golden era of fake quads, inflated scores for non-existent PCS, endless injuries, and eating disorders.

And it is exactly the same now, only without quads and with Japanese/Koreans in place of Russians and double the hypocrisy. Again, losing things, not gaining anything worthwhile (unless you're really into the hypocrisy and backroom dealings that is). Gimme back the quads in women instead of fake triples.

 

[gkelly]

Suppose that the ISU decided to keep the "well-balanced free skate" with 6 or 7 jumping passes, as the final phase of a combined SP+FS event or as a standalone event.

And then also to introduce a brand new discipline called Ice Jumping.

What kind of rules would you like to see for an Ice Jumping competition? How long would the programs be and how many jumps would be allowed? Should it include music? Program component scores? Any technical elements other than jumps? What would be most fun for a fan to watch who loves jumps and is bored by in-between skating?

 

[AxelLover]

Gimme back the quads in women

I agree. Even though there were A LOT of things that I didn't like about Trusova's, Shcherbakova's and Valieva's skating, I have to admit these girls made the ladies' discipline super exciting to watch.

 

[4everchan]

Well... The four first jumping passes of pretty much everyone's LP was a jumping tournament. Really, what more do fans need?

 

[TallyT]

Well... The four first jumping passer of pretty much everyone's LP was a jumping tournament. Really, what more do fans need?

Look at the size of the audiences for everything other than Euros and Worlds (and they were down on a couple of years ago) for the men even more than the women. Yes, Malinin's jump fests attract lots of tiktok views and the parochial press - well, the ones that are even noticing, which still ain't many - are talking him up even more than Nathan Chen, but what use is it when fans just tick like and go and actually support another sport or entertainment? (and I now very much suspect it wasn't so much just the quads that made the Eteri girls a worldwide draw, it was even more the whole soap opera aspect. And the Lord of the Flies cut-throatness. Meanwhile in Japan/Asia it is still the well-rounded, art-as-well-as-technique skaters who are actually making new fans and keeping the old ones.)

He'd probably win even without the help of those hyper-inflated PCS's. His jumps are that efficient. He doesn't need the ISU to change the rules specifically to boost his competitive rankings.

 

[gkelly]

Well... The four first jumping passes of pretty much everyone's LP was a jumping tournament. Really, what more do fans need?

Not Alina Zagitova's .
Not my favorite skater, but I did enjoy that she started her programs with the parts that I found more interesting.

I'm sorry that the ISU's response to overloading on second-half jump bonuses was to make the programs more cookie cutter, discouraging more variety of program structure.

 

[Mathman]

Suppose that the ISU decided to keep the "well-balanced free skate" with 6 or 7 jumping passes, as the final phase of a combined SP+FS event or as a standalone event.

And then also to introduce a brand new discipline called Ice Jumping.

Thay have tried this, isn't that the case? Top Jump contests under various sets of rules. Have these turned out to be successful in terms of fans/audience interest?

 

[Mathman]

Not Alina Zagitova's .
Not my favorite skater, but I did enjoy that she started her programs with the parts that I found more interesting.

I'm sorry that the ISU's response to overloading on second-half jump bonuses was to make the programs more cookie cutter, discouraging more variety of program structure.

That's a good example. Some people liked the skating in the first half, others liked the flurry of jumps at the end. I think the original intention of the ISU was to prevent programs from beconming too cookie-cutter (skaters were putting all their hard technical content into the first two minutes). The backloading bonus was intended to give skaters an incentive to spread out highlight elements, make them more sensitive to the rise and fall of the music, etc. Zagitova's performance showed that this was wishful thinking on the part of the ISU. If they had not beat a hasty retreat I think we would have seen more and more skaters channeling Alina until everyone was doing it and we were back to square one in terms of varied programs.of nicely placed jumps, taking the rise and fall of the music into account, etc.

Nowadays every skater saves his or her top-valued element to place at the 2:01 minute mark. (Sometimes they are off by couple of seconds and lose the advantage).

No matter what the ISU comes up with, clever skaters and coaches will figure out a way to squeeze as many points as possible out of it. One of the more humorous examples was when the SU emphasized "use of the full body" as a bullet point for step sequences. Every skater started cruising down the ice bending up and down from the waist and boobing their heads as if bobbing for apples. Look how I am involving mywhole body!

 

[Mathman]

the leet skaters always have plenty of choreo, with 7 passes. And on the lower tiers, you will just have more empty space instead of a jump. I think it is a totally false assumption that the extra seconds will go to some awe-inspiring choreo that will blow one's mind away, i

I agree with that. Adding or subtracting a jumping pass is not guarenteed to result in better choreography of in more admirable demonstration of skating skills. It will also not result in better jumps -- or in worse ones. That is why i am not terribly exercised over the proposal that the ISU is comsidering.

I do think, thpugh (I might be wrong) that the skaters themselves will appreciate having a little energy left over to devote to a more vigorous step sequence and to moves in the field that there just isn't any time for.

 

[Mathematician]

Things that stood out to me after going through this entire thread:

1. I seem to be the only one who really doesnt like the re-addition of somersaults. Just an obvious grasp for tiktok clips over a mundane gimmick. I dont want it. Let the dopamine addicted tiktokers watch basketball or something.

2. Pairs age gaps should be limited to 5 years for juniors, in my opinion. 7 years isnt ludicrous but I want less. Its a step. The 13-23 proposal is egregious and honestly suspicious (borderline criminal).

3. I dont think the quad changes are targeting Ilia. I dont see the evidence for that claim. Like others have said its been in the thoughts for a long time. I dont mind the quad changes in general. A total 0 for a fall is pushing it IMO but I dont feel too strongly about it.

4. This entire debate about "x-games" versus choreography is only describable, from my perspective, with adjectives that would probably get me banned; simply put I find it extremely... stupid and dishonest on both sides.

Anyone who claims that impressive jumps on their own are an equal to the traditional deep essence of skating just doesnt even like figure skating. Its not honest at all to take the position that "its opinion" and everyone has their "own preferences" or that its equal in its own way because its "exciting" or "evolutionary". Sorry but nobody wants to see the most athletic ballerina's extensions and soft landings as an isolated athletic feat without any musicality, at least, not as an organized prolonged interest (maybe for tiktok clips, as aforementioned in my first point, which this sport should NEVER fall to). Its just not a thing no matter how much you hide and crutch with subjectivity. If Bazyluk jumped as she did now, with her current choreo, however that represented her at artistic maturity, I wouldn't even be that impressed. Jumps could be the beautiful petals of skating but choreography and delicate expression is the nectar itself.

So skaters shouldn't be able to jump quads and win without choreo, obviously... but the issue for me is that I dont know when this has ever really happened... Its a total strawman. The only supposed examples are Malinin and Trusova, and:

Malinin's choreo is not amazing but its in no world below average across all male competitors. He has unproblematic choreo, its exciting and gives personality and its totally reasonable for him to settle with artistic acceptability in the pursuit for athletic excellence. He does have energy and its by no means empty. I suppose Dikidzhi is an example of genuinely poor choreo with good scores just from tech, which I dislike, but he definitely wouldnt actually win anything internationally anyways (maybe a bronze if the stars were his that day? with a 4A?), and he didnt even win in Russia so its not really a point.

Trusova gets hated on so bad for literally zero reason. At this point there is nothing left that I get worked up over on this forum (not even the Kamila case - not invested anymore) but this persisting slander really takes my patience. She had one "bad" program (Cruella) and guess what, she lost the gold off PCS on that program because she didnt get every jump perfect across the tournament, exactly as everyone says it should be and as it happened. So where is the problem? Her Frida had good choreo, so did her Appassionata and Romeo & Juliet. She is not an icon of bad choreography at all. People just singled her out because her tech was revolutionary while her choreo wasnt, but at worst her choreo was average like Malinin (I think much better but that isnt the point) and no worse, and because of that she isnt OGM. Everyone liked her so naturally the "non-conformists" had to slander her entire career over one experimental free skate to fight in (and basically invent totally) some imaginary war of skating philosophy in their head.

Literally who are these people arguing against? I dont know. Did Shcherbakova have bad choreo? Is someone going to bite that bullet? Akateva? I hope someone does because I wont even try to argue back - I'll just give you a like in impression with your dedication. I shouldnt continue name dropping but you guys arent even arguing against a strawman at this point its some completely nonexistent phantom of the imagination that nobody is even trying to defend. I dont understand.

Quads might be a bit overpowered with falls, and like I said the changes could be great to make quads "riskier" and reward artistry/other delicate elements more. But the point is that the vast majority of "quadsters" have good choreo and spins and what ever else anyways. And those that didnt paid the price historically. Theres just no evidence supporting that this argument should even exist in the first place.

 

[skatesofgold]

Why is this board so condescending towards those who like jumps the most?

Also, I'd go to say that the problem with figure skating right now is the coverage in general. In the past, even though I was a kid, I felt like I knew the international skaters (Gordeeva and Grinkov, Baiul, Petrenko, Witt, etc.). Now, I don't. NBC's coverage is seriously lacking. I don't think any amount of artistry or decreased emphasis on jumps will increase the popularity. Whatever happened to fluff pieces about international skaters? Was that ABC's and CBS's thing? Like even Weir's love for all things Russian didn't help. And it's like NBC used to do fluff pieces on international gymnasts.

 

[4everchan]

Not Alina Zagitova's .
Not my favorite skater, but I did enjoy that she started her programs with the parts that I found more interesting.

I'm sorry that the ISU's response to overloading on second-half jump bonuses was to make the programs more cookie cutter, discouraging more variety of program structure.

I will give you that... Alina's jumping tournament was in the last two minutes of the program... Watch it again... It's jump after jump after jump.. this is why, it better work because when it didn't, it was a disaster... Should I share worlds 2018's LP ?

 

[TallyT]

Firstly, I think it's fair to remember that even if we don't admit or even recognise it, everyone views these proposals and pretty much everything officiadom, the judges etc do, through the lens of 'how will it affect my favourite competitors' (unless you don't actually have favourites competing at the minute, like, well me, there are some I like, like a lot, but there's no one I'm that invested in even enough to remember what their programs are. I'm hoping that changes when the juniors start coming up the ranks.) Objectivity is a furphy in sporting fandom and that is right and good and natural. So many (not all, I'm not alone in not having 'em) comments are subjective that way. Again, right and good and natural.

Malinin won't be harmed by these proposals, but it's natural that his fans, who want him to be the Next Superstar since... ummm... the last one who proved not so much to be, want the rules to be canted towards his strengths. As will those with the next candidate for superstardom.

Why is this board so condescending towards those who like jumps the most?

It's not. It's one way to like the sport. But it's not the only, or right, or modern, or 'true' way, because there's no such animal. And if more folk on this board prefer to like a balance, that's just another way to like.