ISU releases official agenda with proposals for 2024: age limits, jump limits and more

[4everchan]

I just rewatched this program from last season:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU8o02_XZoc (Mozalev, My Body is a Cage)
What a wonderful program, full of choreography, almost no empty moment at all, such complexity... it should get the highest composition scores. It's so sad that a program consisting of nothing but the seperate elements and maybe one signature move will get the same scores.
So in that regard I agree with the sceptics. Taking out one jumping passage will not make a change if the general attitude does not change and the scoring does not get better. If judges in their heads still only reward jumps, reputation and being from the right fed and are not punished for that, no change in rules will matter.

that's always the issue. I sincerely believe that most of the times, the ISU made good rule changes. But, what the skaters and more importantly, judges, do with it is something else We will have to see.

I agree this program is much more interesting to watch than a lot of the programs we saw at Worlds this year. At the same time, only 3 quads attempted, one of them popped. This was early in the season I would suppose. My point, is that if the salchow attempt remained unsuccessful, I would imagine that some of the choreo before it would get nixed later on in the season...

This is the elephant in the room.... There is choreography plans made with most skaters.... but then, as the season progresses, coaches and skaters remove difficult transitions if the jumps are not successful enough... By the time we get to worlds : skate skate skate jump X4. then a step or choreo seq + 1 spin + skate skate skate jump X3 plus the other seq + 2 spins... Some skaters are a bit more original... for instance, Roman keeps his 3 spins for the end LOL

 

[Mathman]

ETA: And maybe I shouldn't comment, since I cannot imagine anything more boring and less athletic than a pure jumping tournament. I have not watched and cannot imagine the circumstances under which I would watch such a contest.

There is no accounting for what people will want to watch. On May 26 the Indianapolis 500 is expecting a live gate of 300,000, with fans spending up to $2500 for the best seats. They will see some cars going round and round a circular track for three hours. (Really fast!!! )

People like curling, i.e., shuffleboard on ice. I like curling. For real It is one of my favorite Winter Olym[pic sports. To see those sweepers brushing vigorously away at the hogline!

 

[azora0111]

negligence and cruelty towards minors is negligence and cruelty. It is also done in pursuit of choreography, flexibility and steps when it's done. If you think Japanese or Korean super-gliders are treated any differently...

I've been reading through your messages on this thread lots of things to think about. The health and well being of an athlete should always come before everything else no matter the accolades. I don't think that arguing about the Japanese or Korean athletes being treated differently is a constructive argument, quite honestly I do not think there is a single country not guilty of being cruel towards their athletes at times. I agree with a lot of your points on jumping its especially impressive and certainly the Russian girls(not women because they are children) have made the most strides and I love to watch them. But it must be considered that they are children and that in some sense they have negative implication towards empowerment, taking away from the accolades of adult women. Jumps such as quads are both empowering and disempowering in this essence. (its hard to explain in brief sentences.) I agree that greater protective efforts should be made by the ISU to protect its athletes. And you make a good point that jumps alone are not the singular cause of this abuse. In general strong opinions with good points and weak points as polite conversation should be!

 

[el henry]

There is no accounting for what people will want to watch. On May 26 the Indianapolis 500 is expecting a live gate of 300,000, with fans spending up to $2500 for the best seats. They will see some cars going round and round a circular track for three hours. (Really fast!!! )

People like curling, i.e., shuffleboard on ice. I like curling. For real It is one of my favorite Winter Olym[pic sports. To see those sweepers brushing vigorously away at the hogline!

I agree, which is why I hope I made it clear that it was for me, and my opinion.

Like others, I have no problems with feats of jumping derring do in well constructed programs. The landing of a perfect jump from a beautiful entry to the beat of the music: that is a "how did they do that" moment.

And if jumping derring do floats your boat, who am I to say no?

Jumping off, (see what I did there) what bothers me is, saying the following as absolutes for everyone:

1. Jumping is the only, the best, the ne plus ultra and alpha and omega of figure skating,

uh, nope

2. Jumping is the highest form of athleticism in figure skating and all those namby pamby other elements suck for air.

uh, nope

3. Jumping is the most exciting element of figure skating for anyone who would ever watch it, the one element that makes anyone and everyone's heart beat faster, fingers clench and toes curl

uh nope

And any proposal by the ISU that fights back against statements like these presented as absolutes is a good thing.

IMO, of course.

 

[Mathematician]

I'm still waiting on the actual evidence that athletes who can only jump quads but are empty elsewhere in their skating standards are unfairly winning golds anywhere.

The ISU is adding a good rule to add variety and sophistication while killing gimmicks. It has nothing to do with Malinin or any elite Russian girl having any sort of unfair advantage at a gold medal.

I like your avatar.

I agree that the whole jumps versus choreography thing is somewhat off target. I would say that the "deep essence of skating" is not choreography, music, or in fact, aesthetic considerations at all. I believe that what makes figure skating figure skating, and not some other type of sport or entertainment, is the demonstration of blade to ice skills. Everything else is embellishment and add-on.

Sure, I pretty much agree actually. But the users earlier were specifically referencing choreo, it wasnt my decision to bring that up, and I took big issue with it and there have been zero counter points.

Lets talk taking skills then or other components. Who is winning with quads and terrible skating skills? Do Japanese/Koreans generally have better "blade work" than quadsters? Yea. Obviously? How would they not if thats what they work on more? Lines or edges arent the only part of SS; so is speed, balance, power, turns and flow, glide and control, and more... So are the general skating skills of non-quadsters better by even close to enough of a margin that they are unfairly losing placement in spite of their lack of quads and no other clear superiorities? What about StSq? And spins? Do we want to start analyzing who had the best spins? No. So there is still no argument and I havent seen a single counter point. Again if anyone wants to bite the bullet on someone like Shcherbakova or Akateva lacking in any category outside of jumps I'll shut up and not even try to argue back.

 

[Mathematician]

1. Jumping is the only, the best, the ne plus ultra and acme and alpha and omega of figure skating,
2. Jumping is the highest form of athleticism in figure skating and all those namby pamby other elements suck for air.
3. Jumping is the most exciting element of figure skating for anyone who would ever watch it

Ok but again who actually says this I literally dont know anyone who believes anything close to that

 

[el henry]

Ok but again who actually says this I literally dont know anyone who believes anything close to that

Well that's wonderful (truly, no snark) for you.

Allowing for the colorful (and might I say masterful and funny) language, it does not take searching through these boards or social media long to find, said as an absolute:

1. Jumps are the most athletic part of figure skating.

2. Jumps are what make figure skating a sport.

3. Jumps are the most exciting part of figure skating.

Which, presented as an absolute, is balderdash.

Of course, I speak as a devotee of the men's discipline. A little bit less for pairs, and much less for ladies, which I rarely watch. Not relevant for ice dance.

 

[Arigato]

Patrick Chan gets an A+ for skating skills, but he was not the tip top of the heap in terms of number and variety of quads presented (sorry Tracy Wilson, that's just a fact. Chan never did as many quads as Tim Goebel did back in 2002 while losing to Yagudin and Plushenko -- sorry, Tim Goebel fans).

Quantity was not her point.



On air at the 2002 Olympics, USA NBC:

Tom Hammond: "So Timothy Goebel, the quad king, long known for his jumping ability but often criticized for a lack of artistry. He's worked hard on it."

Well, hells bells, give the man a prize for "working hard" on something but never actually achieving it.

Scott Hamilton: "It's nothing for him, he's so gifted in the air!!"

The air? How about the ice, Scott. Remember ice?


Scott Hamilton: "He doesn't skate with the same speed as his Russian competitors, but what he does in the air is pretty amazing."

Stay in the air. Never land. No one will know a guy can't actually skate well. Give him gold!

 

[icewhite]

I'm still waiting on the actual evidence that athletes who can only jump quads but are empty elsewhere in their skating standards are unfairly winning golds anywhere.

The ISU is adding a good rule to add variety and sophistication while killing gimmicks. It has nothing to do with Malinin or any elite Russian girl having any sort of unfair advantage at a gold medal.



Sure, I pretty much agree actually. But the users earlier were specifically referencing choreo, it wasnt my decision to bring that up, and I took big issue with it and there have been zero counter points.

Lets talk taking skills then or other components. Who is winning with quads and terrible skating skills? Do Japanese/Koreans generally have better "blade work" than quadsters? Yea. Obviously? How would they not if thats what they work on more? Lines or edges arent the only part of SS; so is speed, balance, power, turns and flow, glide and control, and more... So are the general skating skills of non-quadsters better by even close to enough of a margin that they are unfairly losing placement in spite of their lack of quads and no other clear superiorities? What about StSq? And spins? Do we want to start analyzing who had the best spins? No. So there is still no argument and I havent seen a single counter point. Again if anyone wants to bite the bullet on someone like Shcherbakova or Akateva lacking in any category outside of jumps I'll shut up and not even try to argue back.

Off topic:
It's not just about golds. Why have this very complicated system when all that matters are your hardest jumps?
And Shcherbakova had for instance superficial, bad gliding. But Levito has a very similar style and she gets overscored like her because people (judges) find that style balletic and feminine and want it in figure skating. Akatieva I don't really remember.

Many of the Asian skaters do not just have edges, but are also very fast and often they have rather clean and fast steps and turns. Not all of them have complex programs though. There are such and such.

 

[Mathman]

On air at the 2002 Olympics, USA NBC:

Tom Hammond: "So Timothy Goebel, the quad king, long known for his jumping ability but often criticized for a lack of artistry. He's worked hard on it."

Well, hells bells, give the man a prize for "working hard" on something but never actually achieving it.

Scott Hamilton: "It's nothing for him, he's so gifted in the air!!"

The air? How about the ice, Scott. Remember ice?


Scott Hamilton: "He doesn't skate with the same speed as his Russian competitors, but what he does in the air is pretty amazing."

Stay in the air. Never land. No one will know a guy can't actually skate well. Give him gold!

Um... what point are you trying to make? Goebel did three quads includong a quad Salchow in combination. He had improved quite a bit in performance skills by 2002, and in fact his Gershwin routine was quite tolerable on the second mark. Yagudin was better and got gold. Plushenko was also batter than Goebel and got silver. Goebel was not as good as either Yagudin or Pliushenko, but better than everyone else. He got bronze. What's the beef?

Patrick Chan was outstanding in skating skills. He had a fine quad toe. But he is not the first person we list when we talk about the great quadsters that the sport has seen. Again, this seems to me to be quite a commonplace and non-controversial observation.

 

[TontoK]

Well, let me heat things up again, since the thread seems to be petering out...

While I really want everything from everybody, I tend to value athleticism more in men and artistry more in women.

 

[Mathman]

3. Jumping is the most exciting element of figure skating for anyone who would ever watch it, the one element that makes anyone and everyone's heart beat faster, fingers clench and toes curl.

Here is the first figure skating jump I ever saw that made my toes curl.

Michelle Kwan 1996 Worlds SP - Romanza Eurosport

www.youtube.com

 

[Mathman]

I tend to value athleticism more in men and artistry more in women.

If only I had your courage I would give you a like.

 

[Arigato]

Um... what point are you trying to make?

Learn to skate. Period. If all people do is gather up speed to set up a jump, not much skating is going on.

 

[Mathman]

^ By the way, that 2002 Men's Olympic event played a role in the development of the IJS. When the ISU was experimenting in 2002 and 2003 with the question of how to assign point values for various elements, they tested their systems in practice judging againgst what actiually happened. In one of the preliminary versions the Code of Points had Goebel as the winner. (Yagudin had planned two quads, but bailed on the second).

Well, this was clearly wrong, so the Code of Points had to be adjusted to make sure that it would work as intended in the future. I guess they are still working on it.

 

[el henry]

Well, let me heat things up again, since the thread seems to be petering out...

While I really want everything from everybody, I tend to value athleticism more in men and artistry more in women.

So do I.

Which is why I value spins, blade to ice skills, mastery of choreo and intricate step sequences in the men.

Great athletic achievements all, and the athletic equal of any other elements the men may perform .

 

[TontoK]

So do I.

Which is why I value spins, blade to ice skills, mastery of choreo and intricate step sequences in the men.

Great athletic achievements all, and the athletic equal of any other elements the men may perform .

I get you, but that's not what I'm talking about it terms of my personal preferences.

And it's not just about jumps. I like big, flashy moves like Ilia's raspberry twist thing. And that glorious extended butterfly/aerial move of Adam's. And a huge death drop where you're not quite sure the guy is going to get around, like Brian Boitano in his prime.

 

[Mathman]

Who is winning with quads and terrible skating skills?

Nobody is winning with terrible skating skills. On the other hand, nobody (men) is winning wothout a quad, either. Everything in due measure.

The recent world championship LP is instructive, I think. If we look at the top 5, Malinin did 6 quads and got 1st, Fa did 4 quads and got 2nd, Kagiyama did 3 quads and got 3rd, Britschgi did 2 quads and got 4th, and Brown did 0 quads and got 5th.

Uno had a disaster of a skate and was out of the picture.

In program components, Malinin got low 9s, which is about what he deserved. Fa got mid 9s, which he deserved, Kagiyama got slightly higher mid 9s, which he also deserved. Britschgi not so strong, but OK in the mid 8s -- no quarrel there. Brown about the same as Kagiyama -- that was right, they were both outstanding. The Spanish judge gave Brown 10.00, 9.75 amd 9.75, which the other judges felt were too high. But then again he also gave 9.00, 8.75 and 8.75 to Brotschgi, so it seems to be just a case of generous judging.

So, what's the problem.?

Well, people might point to the fact that the differences between TES and PCS were 37, 25, 17, 9 and -8.5 for the top five. In other words the bigger the gap between a skaters TES and his PCS, the higher on the [podium he rises. Is there anything here to make us think that the "balanced program" concept is slipping out of balance?

Or we could look at it like this. Here are the number of TES points that the top 4 got for their quads, versus how many points they got for all other technical elements combined, including spins, footwaork and lesser jumps (such as a paltry triple Axel combo).

Malinin: quads 94, everything else 43
Fa: quads 57, everything else 59
Kagiyama: quads 47. everything else 64
Britschgi 26, everything else 68

Well, at least Fa was well-balanced between quads and everything else on the tech side.

By the way, the Assistant Tech Specialist was Terry Kubicka, the only skater ever to perform a legal backflip in Olympic competition.

Of course the ISU proposals under consideration do not address this issue -- if, indeed, there is anything that needs addressing.

 

[el henry]

I get you, but that's not what I'm talking about it terms of my personal preferences.

And it's not just about jumps. I like big, flashy moves like Ilia's raspberry twist thing. And that glorious extended butterfly/aerial move of Adam's. And a huge death drop where you're not quite sure the guy is going to get around, like Brian Boitano in his prime.

Well, big flashy moves, to my mind, are part of the artistry "canon". I am not trying to be argumentative, just personal definitions, which we all have .

llia's "raspberry" variation on the butterfly kick as well as Andrew's variation, as well as Adam's. I adore a good butterfly. Jason's Russian splits are nothing if not big and showy. (as are Tomoki's) Hitch kicks (again Andrew, I'm trying to think of anyone else who has done them, I love hitch kicks). Is anything more showy than Jun's Ina Bauer? And the list goes on....

 

[TallyT]

Talking about the jumping competitions, I think that development is perfect right now.

As @Mathman pointed out, it's not new, it's been tried and failed. The Russian ones may be more successful because at the minute their juvenile jumpers are trendy there (and jumping competitions mask their immature artistry better?)

Well, let me heat things up again, since the thread seems to be petering out...

While I really want everything from everybody, I tend to value athleticism more in men and artistry more in women.

I do not for one minute see why, if we are going to call someone a real champion and one of the best of the best, they should - both men and women - be expected to have both in abundance. And why the athleticism can't be beautiful and the artistry powerful. Not for everyone of course, some people just aren't artistic and some are, but can't manage the big jumps. But hey, let's not try and discount those few who can do it all.

The ISU and their judges made a point for some years of favouring the quad royalty, pretending artistry where it wasn't and handwaving skating skills with dodgy PCS. And then some people wondered why they lost millions in revenue last year.