59th ISU Congress: Watch and Discuss

[TallyT]

About the sponsorship/manufacturer logos being able to be displayed on the costumes themselves, I don't have a big issue with it if it's done like in Rhythmic gymnastics.

For context, in RG it is mandatory for gymnasts to have country-identifying appliques on their leotards (usually the flag or the coat of arms), and appliques showing sponsorships (usually the team sponsor). Some examples:

Arina Averina 2018 Hoop & Anastasia Simakova 2019 Rope

Nastya had one central applique on her chest (Russian coat of arms, not visible in the picture), one on her sleeve (Gazprom, Russian team sponsor) and one on her hip (MegaFon). Arina had both of her appliques next to each other on her left shoulder.

Stiliana Nikolova Ball 2023

A very unique take on the rules by Stiliana - Her flag is not an applique, but made from rhinestones (and that on most of her leotards). Underneath is an applique from Sasaki (manufacturer of rhythmic gymnastics equipment, personal sponsor).

In movement, most of these are so small that you don't notice them much, in my opinion, so something like this would be acceptable to me.

Fair enough, though I already have visions of something more like...


(and while the small ones you mention may be hard to see on many more complex costumes - which defeats the purpose? - they'd stand out rather more on many men's BlackIsTheNewBlack duds. Or Vera Wang. Just sayin')

 

[TallyT]

20 percent more for a spin or step sequence that is not even worth 4 points is pretty much dust... the total raise for 3 spins is less than 2 points... so really, if the change is welcomed because there is a recognition of the lack of balance between jumps and other elements, it's such a minor change that I don't see any problem doing this in the middle of the Olympic cycle.

And maybe if it does prove beneficial, they can do more to rebalance? I like.

 

[skatesofgold]

I don't understand how we're at the point where adults should be allowed to compete as juniors, but not vice versa anymore.

 

[Jeanie19]

I don't understand how we're at the point where adults should be allowed to compete as juniors, but not vice versa anymore.

It doesn't make any sense. And for juniors the age gap should be no more than 5 years.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I don't understand how we're at the point where adults should be allowed to compete as juniors, but not vice versa anymore.

17 year olds aren't adults. And adults have always been allowed to compete in Juniors - 18, 19, 20 and 21-year-olds are legal adults in most countries after all.

Not saying I'm in favour of the age raise to 23 for pairs men (I'm not really, but one alternative was allowing 16-year-olds to compete as Seniors in pairs, and that would be even worse, imo), but this is not the argument to be made.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

It doesn't make any sense. And for juniors the age gap should be no more than 5 years.

7 years has always been the maximum age gap in juniors, people just weren't forced to face that fact because there weren't age eligibility issues.

At least it's spelled out now, which means that proposals to change it can be made more easily now, as it's probably much easier to convince the congress to lower the age gap than to change the whole eligibility age again.

 

[Magill]

Fair enough, though I already have visions of something more like...
View attachment 8080

(and while the small ones you mention may be hard to see on many more complex costumes - which defeats the purpose? - they'd stand out rather more on many men's BlackIsTheNewBlack duds. Or Vera Wang. Just sayin')

I admit I have mixed feelings about it. As far as I would not care for small and discrete logos in the form of a tiny label or a small, well fitting parts of design (or a small logo of the manufacturer on the blades which actually is just fine for me) if it could help some skaters to finance their participation in the sport and bring about some more fancy and elegant costumes, I also expect a special section of What The Fabric annual award dedicated solely to the logoed ones with some very hard choices for the jury to make due to a fair abundance of deserving candidates
I also think that while sponsor logos are pretty normal for the sportswear in many disciplines, skaters already wear them on their jackets for practice and for Kiss and Cry. Would they then have to display both their costume and the jacket in some elaborate laid back pose while waiting for their scores, lol?
And last but not least - unlike in other sports, figure skating costumes should first and foremost fit the program and performance, and as such are a part of the presentation score, right? I guess, some costumes would go fine with a logo, but for some others it would make them look just ridiculous. Would then skaters try to make music choices to allow for better presentation of their sponsor logo? Would the judges - so famously sensitive to each and every detail- go unaffected by logos, or would a given sponsor name actually affect the score? For good or for bad? Like for an American designer - high GOE from an American judge but low from an Italian, and the other way round for Italian brands? Or some judges star-struck by Versace, Gucci or Armani vs a local small-country brand, just the way they go for some more powerful coaches names vs some less known or less favoured? They're just humans, right, so some sponsoring brand star-struck could be easily expected. Would we have then a costume-logo bias added to the fed, reputation and coach biases already present and infamous in this sport?

 

[Karoltyna]

And maybe if it does prove beneficial, they can do more to rebalance? I like.

I hope they'll do. I'm tired with people stating that more rev in jumps is the only thing that makes fv progress and develop.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Fair enough, though I already have visions of something more like...
View attachment 8080

(and while the small ones you mention may be hard to see on many more complex costumes - which defeats the purpose? - they'd stand out rather more on many men's BlackIsTheNewBlack duds. Or Vera Wang. Just sayin')

The maximum size allowed for manufacturer marks is 30 cm^2, so about 5.5 cm x 5.5 cm, though the skaters are additionally allowed their name and ISU member identification on their costumes. That's not that big.

Gymnastics has the same size rule for manufacturer's logos, and additionally up to 1x 130 cm^2 for advertisements (and/or 2 x 90 cm^2). And country identification (name, FIG 3-letter code or flag) has to be at least 30 cm^2 big, with the coat of arms being able to be worn in addition.

For reference with a more simple leotard:

Because you are very right about appliques getting lost in very busy designs:

How many appliques can you find?

Though the coat of arms was used quite well as part of the design on these leotards in my opinion:

 

[Karoltyna]

I admit I have mixed feelings about it. As far as I would not care for small and discrete logos in the form of a tiny label or a small, well fitting parts of design (or a small logo of the manufacturer on the blades which actually is just fine for me) if it could help some skaters to finance their participation in the sport and bring about some more fancy and elegant costumes, I also expect a special section of What The Fabric annual award dedicated solely to the logoed ones with some very hard choices for the jury to make due to a fair abundance of deserving candidates
I also think that while sponsor logos are pretty normal for the sportswear in many disciplines, skaters already wear them on their jackets for practice and for Kiss and Cry. Would they then have to display both their costume and the jacket in some elaborate laid back pose while waiting for their scores, lol?
And last but not least - unlike in other sports, figure skating costumes should first and foremost fit the program and performance, and as such are a part of the presentation score, right? I guess, some costumes would go fine with a logo, but for some others it would make them look just ridiculous. Would then skaters try to make music choices to allow for better presentation of their sponsor logo? Would the judges - so famously sensitive to each and every detail- go unaffected by logos, or would a given sponsor name actually affect the score? For good or for bad? Like for an American designer - high GOE from an American judge but low from an Italian, and the other way round for Italian brands? Or some judges star-struck by Versace, Gucci or Armani vs a local small-country brand, just the way they go for some more powerful coaches names vs some less known or less favoured? They're just humans, right, so some sponsoring brand star-struck could be easily expected. Would we have then a costume-logo bias added to the fed, reputation and coach biases already present and infamous in this sport?

It's complicated with logos, I'm a new media lawyer, I drafted contracts concerning logos, in most sports the sportswear is strictly divided, like right arm for the international fed, left arm for country fed, some little place on helmet for personal sponsor and so on. I think I read an interview with Loena where she said that it's problem with sponsors, the display during warmup and k&c is not enough. She is active in sm, so she got a contract with chique sport, but she only gets free training clothes, no money. Maybe they should include costume designer in this label where they are naming the music during the transmission? I'm not sure how it's called in English. It would be a few seconds of display in tv and maybe some designers would be tempted?

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I admit I have mixed feelings about it. As far as I would not care for small and discrete logos in the form of a tiny label or a small, well fitting parts of design (or a small logo of the manufacturer on the blades which actually is just fine for me) if it could help some skaters to finance their participation in the sport and bring about some more fancy and elegant costumes, I also expect a special section of What The Fabric annual award dedicated solely to the logoed ones with some very hard choices for the jury to make due to a fair abundance of deserving candidates
I also think that while sponsor logos are pretty normal for the sportswear in many disciplines, skaters already wear them on their jackets for practice and for Kiss and Cry. Would they then have to display both their costume and the jacket in some elaborate laid back pose while waiting for their scores, lol?
And last but not least - unlike in other sports, figure skating costumes should first and foremost fit the program and performance, and as such are a part of the presentation score, right? I guess, some costumes would go fine with a logo, but for some others it would make them look just ridiculous. Would then skaters try to make music choices to allow for better presentation of their sponsor logo? Would the judges - so famously sensitive to each and every detail- go unaffected by logos, or would a given sponsor name actually affect the score? For good or for bad? Like for an American designer - high GOE from an American judge but low from an Italian, and the other way round for Italian brands? Or some judges star-struck by Versace, Gucci or Armani vs a local small-country brand, just the way they go for some more powerful coaches names vs some less known or less favoured? They're just humans, right, so some sponsoring brand star-struck could be easily expected. Would we have then a costume-logo bias added to the fed, reputation and coach biases already present and infamous in this sport?

If rhythmic gymnastics, also a heavily aesthetic sport with subjective, politically easily swayed scoring, can pull it off, then I think figure skating can too. It might take some time to get used to it, and not everyone will end up using this new opportunity, but if it helps skaters with funding, it's a step in the right direction.

Fun fact - Rhythmic gymnastics also allows writing on the apparatus, so you end up with gems like this:

You can't really read it well, due to the movement of the ribbon, but the writing spells out all of the Olympic games she has been to - Atlanta 1996, Sydney 2000, Athens 2004 and Beijing 2008. She used this ribbon only once - At her last Olympics.

 

[TallyT]

The maximum size allowed for manufacturer marks is 30 cm^2, so about 5.5 cm x 5.5 cm, though the skaters are additionally allowed their name and ISU member identification on their costumes. That's not that big.

Gymnastics has the same size rule for manufacturer's logos, and additionally up to 1x 130 cm^2 for advertisements (and/or 2 x 90 cm^2). And country identification (name, FIG 3-letter code or flag) has to be at least 30 cm^2 big, with the coat of arms being able to be worn in addition.

For reference with a more simple leotard:

Because you are very right about appliques getting lost in very busy designs:

How many appliques can you find?

Too many though I am happy to admit that this is probably personal taste and neither the ISU nor the skaters have to pander to my sense of the funny/bathetic. But, as I remember my Aged Relatives saying ominously, is it just the Thin Edge of the Wedge? (Probably, but that won't be known for goodness knows how long...)

Though the coat of arms was used quite well as part of the design on these leotards in my opinion:

I will also admit I find most gymnastics costumes ugly, so... can't judge whether the logos make them uglier.

It will be interesting to see how other countries (like the Japanese, with their different aesthetic senses but also more sponsors) take to the idea.

 

[Magill]

If rhythmic gymnastics, also a heavily aesthetic sport with subjective, politically easily swayed scoring, can pull it off, then I think figure skating can too. It might take some time to get used to it, and not everyone will end up using this new opportunity, but if it helps skaters with funding, it's a step in the right direction.

Fun fact - Rhythmic gymnastics also allows writing on the apparatus, so you end up with gems like this:

You can't really read it well, due to the movement of the ribbon, but the writing spells out all of the Olympic games she has been to - Atlanta 1996, Sydney 2000, Athens 2004 and Beijing 2008. She used this ribbon only once - At her last Olympics.

I am no expert on rhythmic gymnastics but my impression is they use music strictly as a background sound and while keeping to the "rhythm" of it, they do not even pretend to actually "dance" to it, conveying slightly more complicated moods and emotions, telling stories or impersonating characters from famous movies or great literature. This is a huge difference to me, actually translating also to costume requirements and impressions for the viewer.That's why I said certain programmes might be okay with a logo, but some others could just look ridiculous when enhanced by a logo close-up in a moment chosen randomly by a camera operator
As for RG being also infamous for blunt favouritisms and "politically" swayed scoring, I am not sure if I find it a convincing argument to actually take after them

 

[lariko]

I don't understand how we're at the point where adults should be allowed to compete as juniors, but not vice versa anymore.

Far lesser stakes for public relationships and far less liability involved, due to the lower profile of juniors. Basically, they had been pushing all the problems/criticism they were facing into junior division lately, hoping that will keep it quieter. Young athletes' abuse? Let them stay in juniors. Dope at the Olympics? Look, they all go juniors from now on. Pairs look iffy with a guy that's uncomfortably old for his barely teenage partner? No worries, they will now be in juniors!

 

[TontoK]

As a man who gives not two hoots about costumes unless they are truly clownish, I don't care if they have a small sponsor logo if it helps pay the bills.

Acknowledging that I roll my eyes at discussions about hair and makeup, why not seek sponsors there, too? "I'm Jane Smith, and I'll be skating to Carmen. My makeup is by Revlon." (Revlon is a makeup company, isn't it?)

 

[saine]

As a man who gives not two hoots about costumes unless they are truly clownish, I don't care if they have a small sponsor logo if it helps pay the bills.

Acknowledging that I roll my eyes at discussions about hair and makeup, why not seek sponsors there, too? "I'm Jane Smith, and I'll be skating to Carmen. My makeup is by Revlon." (Revlon is a makeup company, isn't it?)

The hair/makeup would be more for social media. I've gotten a few 'get ready with me' recommended on Instagram, so that's where they'd get the engagement. Having athletes recommend products that work in competition environments should be big.

I'll add nail polish to it too. If Anthony Paradis had a recommendation for a top coat that would survive a free skate without chipping, I'd buy it.

 

[gkelly]

7 years has always been the maximum age gap in juniors, people just weren't forced to face that fact because there weren't age eligibility issues.

At least it's spelled out now, which means that proposals to change it can be made more easily now, as it's probably much easier to convince the congress to lower the age gap than to change the whole eligibility age again.

If the maximum age for pair men is increased, and the minimum junior age in general remains the same, then it would be possible to have 8- or 9-year gaps within the new junior age rules. So setting a cap on the age difference prevents that. Although those teams would have longer to wait before the girl is senior eligible after the man ages out of juniors, so not likely to form as long-term partnerships anyway.

I also think that while sponsor logos are pretty normal for the sportswear in many disciplines, skaters already wear them on their jackets for practice and for Kiss and Cry. Would they then have to display both their costume and the jacket in some elaborate laid back pose while waiting for their scores, lol?

That probably depends on what the sponsor wants, in exchange for their sponsorship. I'd expect more visibility should be tied to more money.

And last but not least - unlike in other sports, figure skating costumes should first and foremost fit the program and performance, and as such are a part of the presentation score, right?

Only subconsciously. There's nothing about costumes in the program component guideliens.

I guess, some costumes would go fine with a logo, but for some others it would make them look just ridiculous. Would then skaters try to make music choices to allow for better presentation of their sponsor logo? Would the judges - so famously sensitive to each and every detail- go unaffected by logos, or would a given sponsor name actually affect the score? For good or for bad? Like for an American designer - high GOE from an American judge but low from an Italian, and the other way round for Italian brands?

I doubt most judges care one way or another. For those few who do, it wouldn't be much different than however judges' personal taste in costumes might already subconsciously affect their scores.

I am no expert on rhythmic gymnastics but my impression is they use music strictly as a background sound and while keeping to the "rhythm" of it, they do not even pretend to actually "dance" to it, conveying slightly more complicated moods and emotions, telling stories or impersonating characters from famous movies or great literature. This is a huge difference to me, actually translating also to costume requirements and impressions for the viewer. That's why I said certain programmes might be okay with a logo, but some others could just look ridiculous when enhanced by a logo close-up in a moment chosen randomly by a camera operator

Do camera operators randomly choose to shoot closeups of logos on rhythmic gymnastics costumes while the performance is in progress?

For television, the producers make more of these decisions than the individual camera operators.

If there is some reason for producers to highlight specific logos (either because the sponsor paid them to, or because focusing on a logo supports a particular human interest narrative the broadcaster is pushing), there should be plenty of time for such closeups off ice, or at worst while the skater is getting on or off the ice.

 

[Magill]

Do camera operators randomly choose to shoot closeups of logos on rhythmic gymnastics costumes while the performance is in progress?

For television, the producers make more of these decisions than the individual camera operators.

If there is some reason for producers to highlight specific logos (either because the sponsor paid them to, or because focusing on a logo supports a particular human interest narrative the broadcaster is pushing), there should be plenty of time for such closeups off ice, or at worst while the skater is getting on or off the ice.

What I meant is that close ups and slow mo in FS are decided depending on the content of the program - pose, element etc. I doubt it would change and any one would take into account logos when deciding upon these things. So from this pov it would be random. I am not sure if the close up on a logo at a peak of some high drama enacted on the ice would actually serve the presentation purpose well but opinions may vary, just like on any other subject.
BTW, same as on judges' biases affecting scores, our opinions seem to differ consistently so let's just agree to differ

 

[Mathman]

The first time I remember discussions of Vera Wang skating dresses was for Nancy Kerrigan in 1992. There was some flack around the issue of whether it was fair for the super-elite and rich (not that Kerrigan herself was personally rich) to use top designers when the commoners had to do their best with whatever they could find off the rack.

Wang, a former skater herself , did it as a favor to Kerrigan’s coach, whom she knew personally. In an interview with People Magazine she later reflected,

“[Designing figure skating dresses] is not for the faint of heart. If one strap were to break, or if the beading on the sleeve gets caught when they turn, their whole Olympics is over. That is how serious it is. It’s absolutely nightmarish!

“I understand the physics,” she said. “I think people are fooled by the nature of the costumes and the ease and the musicality and the choreography. It is an extreme sport.”

https://brad.photoshelter.com/image/I0000Uel_xZojU.M

Michelle Kwan required freedom above all. No fabric close to her neck, no excess fullness in the skirt or around the hips.

https://people.com/thmb/ni6UAfdsd7N...kwan-435-7cea22277aa346d0851ce50d0010a29a.jpg

 

[Karoltyna]

What I meant is that close ups and slow mo in FS are decided depending on the content of the program - pose, element etc. I doubt it would change and any one would take into account logos when deciding upon these things. So from this pov it would be random. I am not sure if the close up on a logo at a peak of some high drama enacted on the ice would actually serve the presentation purpose well but opinions may vary, just like on any other subject.
BTW, same as on judges' biases affecting scores, our opinions seem to differ consistently so let's just agree to differ

If european tv did too many closeups on the logos, the broadcasting authority would punish them, we have strict regulations on showing commercial content. Skaters speaking about their sponsors would also be risky.