Olympians who won the LP but missed the gold medal

[Mathman]

IIRC - Janet Lynn. She, like a few others, bombed in the figures!

Janet Lynn was actually not bad at figures. In was just her bad timing that she had to go up against Trixie Schuba, the all-time Godzilla of ladies' compulsory figures. For instance at 1972 Worlds, Lynn was 3rd in figures + 1st in free skating -= bronze overall. Karen Magnussen was 2nd in figures + 2nd in free skating = slilver overall.

And Schuba was 1st in figures + 9th in free skating = gold overall.

The reason why was that scoring in figures among the top competitors was more spread out than the free skating, so even if you won the free skating part that did not give you much of an overall advantage when the two scores were combined.

At that same championship Toller Cranston came 1st in free skating + 9th in figures = 5th overall.

 

[4everchan]

Janet Lynn was actually not bad at figures. In was just her bad timing that she had to go up against Trixie Schuba, the all-time Godzilla of ladies' compulsory figures. For instance at 1972 Worlds, Lynn was 3rd in figures + 1st in free skating -= bronze overall. Karen Magnussen was 2nd in figures + 2nd in free skating = slilver overall.

And Schuba was 1st in figures + 9th in free skating = gold overall.

The reason why was that scoring in figures among the top competitors was more spread out than the free skating, so even if you won the free skating part that did not give you much off an overall advantage when the two scores were combined.

At that same championship Toller Cranston came 1st in free skating + 9th in figures = 5th overall.

I thought it was because figures were worth 70% or something like that.

 

[Mathman]

I thought it was because figures were worth 70% or something like that.

I think that "something like that" is a good way to put it. Wikipedia says:

"The results of both the men's and ladies' singles events were dominated by placements in the compulsory figures, which at the time were nominally worth 50% of the total score but in fact weighted more heavily than the free skating due to being judged using a wider range of marks."

I believe that the rules for combining scores were in flux during that period, and that the formulas were fairly complicated, involving things like how many judges placed a particular skater in a particular ordinal position on each figure separately, etc.

I do know that Peggy Fleming holds the all-time record score in the history of figure skating with 1970.5 points.-- whatever that means. But it's a useful fact to know when fans start bragging that their guy just scored 300 points. Heck, Peggy got that much for one figure.

 

[TallyT]

I do know that Peggy Flemming holds the all-time record score in the history of figure skating with 1970.5 points.-- whatever that means. But it's a useful fact to know when fans start bragging that their guy just scored 300 points. Heck, Peggy got that much for one figure.

I do rather like that...

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Denise Biellmann 1980. 1st in Lp but 12th in figures. 4th overall.

Oh damn - and she was 2nd in the SP too. To lose an Olympic medal (which would have been gold in any non-figures year), that sucks... figures suuuucked.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Odd one from the 1980's Olympics:.

Natalia Linichuk / Gennadi Karponosov were 1st in the Compulsory Dance and 2nd in the Free Dance.

Krisztina Regőczy / András Sallay were 2nd in the Compulsory Dance and 1st in the Free Dance. But I guess the scoring meant that the Hungarians came 2nd.

Figure skating at the 1980 Winter Olympics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mathman]

Odd one from the 1980's Olympics:.

Natalia Linichuk / Gennadi Karponosov were 1st in the Compulsory Dance and 2nd in the Free Dance.

Krisztina Regőczy / András Sallay were 2nd in the Compulsory Dance and 1st in the Free Dance. But I guess the scoring meant that the Hungarians came 2nd.

Yeah, the crucial determinant is that L&K scored 13 total "placements" to 14 for R&S. (lower is better). Although I never mastered the details, I think this has to of with how many judges placed each of the teams in first or second in each segment. Something like that. The OBO version of 6.0 had a somewhat similar feature.

The men's results were interesting, too, for people (like me) who are endlessly baffled by figure skating scoring procedures. Jan Hoffmann (1st in figures, 2nd in SP, 2nd in LP) scored a combined total of 189.72 points when the scores were combined. Robin Cousins (3th in figures, 1st in SP, 1st in LP) totalled 189.48.

So who won the gold medal? Cousins with 13 "placements" to 15 for Hoffmann.

By the way, this was the event where the scandal erupted alleging that king-maker coach Carlo Fassi had engineered a swap whereby Annett Potzsch of East Germany would be given the gold medal over American Linda Fratianne, in exchange for Fassi's skater Cousins to win ahead of East German Hoffmann. (Fratianne's coach Frank Carroll never got over it to his dying day.)

In the previous Olympic cycle. Dorothy Hamill had been advised by USFS bigwigs that if she wanted to win the 1976 OGM, she would have to switch coaches to Fassi, which she did. Fassi left her coachless at 1976 U.S. Nationals (where, distracted, she was out-skated by a youthful Fratianne) because Fassi had to rush away to attend to his other Olympic hopeful, John Curry. Hamill was so mad that she decided to pitch Fassi for the Olympics and stick with her interim cioach but the USFSA wouldn't let her, thus giving Fassi a twofer at the 1976 Olympics.

Annett Potzsch, by the way, was coached by (the late) Jutta Müller, who also coached Katarina Witt to Olympic gold. Potzsch later married Katerina Witt's brother, and in 2000 their daughter won the German pairrs title with partner... Robin Szolkowy. Jutta Muller's daughter, Gabriele Seyfert, was Olympic silver medalist in 1968 (Peggy Fleming gold).

And that is all I know about the small world of East German figure skating back in the day.

 

[Skater Boy]

Janet Lynn was actually not bad at figures. In was just her bad timing that she had to go up against Trixie Schuba, the all-time Godzilla of ladies' compulsory figures. For instance at 1972 Worlds, Lynn was 3rd in figures + 1st in free skating -= bronze overall. Karen Magnussen was 2nd in figures + 2nd in free skating = slilver overall.

And Schuba was 1st in figures + 9th in free skating = gold overall.

The reason why was that scoring in figures among the top competitors was more spread out than the free skating, so even if you won the free skating part that did not give you much of an overall advantage when the two scores were combined.

At that same championship Toller Cranston came 1st in free skating + 9th in figures = 5th overTrall.

TRixie was very very lucky too. Yest amazing at figures but had it been the ordinal system she would NOT have won gold. Life had been about timing and when you skated. Trixie changed skating and because figures was boring to watch it became less and less important to competitive skating eventually being phased out all together.

 

[Skater Boy]

But Yuzu did it when it really counted. Which is part of why he is still the megastar and is labelled the GOAT all the time. But none of which has much to do with what @Mathman asked in the first place.

And @Mathman I had a thought... Medvedeva actually didn't win the free in 2018, did she? She and Zagitova got exactly the same score (now that's a freaky coincidence) and Zagitova took gold because she eas awarded just a fraction more in the short.

Evgenia did win the freeskate on the tie breaker not that it really makes a huge difference. Maybe she got a small gold medal?

 

[Mathman]

Trixie changed skating and because figures was boring to watch it became less and less important to competitive skating eventually being phased out all together.

Yeah, figures were not very entertaining from an audience perspective, and so in the television age that segment of the competition wasn't even shown. This led to situations where the TV audience was left baffled at the scoring results, when it seemed clear (to the audience) that one skater was skating rings around the other in the free skate, not realizing that the opposite had been true in the compulsory figures.

Personally, I am glad that a few tapes of Schuba doing figures have been preserved. Far from boring, they were eye-popping and beautiful -- it was incredible that the number 1 lady could be SO far ahead of whoever was second, third or fourth best in the world at this discipline.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

By the way, this was the event where the scandal erupted alleging that king-maker coach Carlo Fassi had engineered a swap whereby Annett Potzsch of East Germany would be given the gold medal over American Linda Fratianne, in exchange for Fassi's skater Cousins to win ahead of East German Hoffmann. (Fratianne's coach Frank Carroll never got over it to his dying day.)

In the previous Olympic cycle. Dorothy Hamill had been advised by USFS bigwigs that if she wanted to win the 1976 OGM, she would have to switch coaches to Fassi, which she did. Fassi left her coachless at 1976 U.S. Nationals (where, distracted, she was out-skated by a youthful Fratianne) because Fassi had to rush away to attend to his other Olympic hopeful, John Curry. Hamill was so mad that she decided to pitch Fassi for the Olympics and stick with her interim cioach but the USFSA wouldn't let her, thus giving Fassi a twofer at the 1976 Olympics.

This is wild, I had no idea the drama that centred around Fassi and the 1976/1980 Olympics.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Going back a bit further...

Ronnie Robertson was 1st in the LP in the '56 Olympics (2nd in figures), ending up with silver overall, sandwiched between the two Jenkins brothers in an American sweep!

Figure skating at the 1956 Winter Olympics – Men's singles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mathman]

This is wild, I had no idea the drama that centred around Fassi and the 1976/1980 Olympics.

I should say that, although it is certain that Carlo Fassi was an influential coach, suspicions of political wheeling and dealing were only alleged, never proved. Sonia Bianchetti, then chair of the ISU's figure skating division, and with no ax to grind, was a particularly vocal defender of the on-ice results of the 1980 Olympics.

Bianchetti herself, of course was later expelled from the ISU altogether for supporting the World Skating Federation and advocating various reforms within the ISU, especially regarding judging.

Frank Carroll, on the other hand was so distraught that he vowed then and there never again to invest his emotional heart and soul in his work as he did for Fratianne. But he broke his vow when Christopher Bowman came along.

 

[Mathman]

Going back a bit further...

Ronnie Robertson was 1st in the LP in the '56 Olympics (2nd in figures), ending up with silver overall, sandwiched between the two Jenkins brothers in an American sweep!

Figure skating at the 1956 Winter Olympics – Men's singles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The killer was the 1968 Olympics (men) where American Tim Wood lost the gold medal when a judge mistakenly held up the wrong card on one of his figures and the rules did not allow a correction.

Here is Wood's own description, from an interview with the SkateGuard blog.

"Q: You actually lost the 1968 Olympic title to Wolfgang Schwarz on a technicality. Can you explain what happened?

"A: They actually all thought I had won. Back then, at the Olympics the factor of scoring was ten and the factor was twelve at Worlds. You had a smaller margin you could give to someone if you were judging. The Canadian judge Ralph McCreath wanted me to win but he mismarked me and realized he made a mistake but it was on paper and you couldn't change it back then. He went to the referee Josef Dědič and there was nothing he could do. I lost the Olympics by one judge by one tenth of a point."

And so Wolfgang Schwarz became Olympic champion -- and went on to a career in human trafficking, twice serving prison terms for for kidnapping

In the same interview Wood speaks about figures with the same excitement and reverence that we use nowadays in gushing about free skating.

"Wood: [In figures, that 1968 Grenoble Olympics was the highlight of my career. There were] thirty six figures (in six groups) and you had to practice all thirty six... and I did for four to five hours a day for ten years.., The left backward change loop and the left backward paragraph loop were the ones everyone feared. I worked especially hard to make sure my left foot was strong. Guess what we ended up having to do at the Olympics?

There were nine judges, they'd just made ice and I had to do the very first figure. No pressure there! Whatever happened out there on that figure, I could do no wrong. It was like somebody did it with a protractor. I just got in a groove and couldn't get out of it. It was really a once in a lifetime experience at the right time. When I finished, the audience was clapping and then I turned at judges and all nine judges were clapping. That just never happened!"

 

[gmyers]

Yeah, the crucial determinant is that L&K scored 13 total "placements" to 14 for R&S. (lower is better). Although I never mastered the details, I think this has to of with how many judges placed each of the teams in first or second in each segment. Something like that. The OBO version of 6.0 had a somewhat similar feature.

The men's results were interesting, too, for people (like me) who are endlessly baffled by figure skating scoring procedures. Jan Hoffmann (1st in figures, 2nd in SP, 2nd in LP) scored a combined total of 189.72 points when the scores were combined. Robin Cousins (3th in figures, 1st in SP, 1st in LP) totalled 189.48.

So who won the gold medal? Cousins with 13 "placements" to 15 for Hoffmann.

By the way, this was the event where the scandal erupted alleging that king-maker coach Carlo Fassi had engineered a swap whereby Annett Potzsch of East Germany would be given the gold medal over American Linda Fratianne, in exchange for Fassi's skater Cousins to win ahead of East German Hoffmann. (Fratianne's coach Frank Carroll never got over it to his dying day.)

In the previous Olympic cycle. Dorothy Hamill had been advised by USFS bigwigs that if she wanted to win the 1976 OGM, she would have to switch coaches to Fassi, which she did. Fassi left her coachless at 1976 U.S. Nationals (where, distracted, she was out-skated by a youthful Fratianne) because Fassi had to rush away to attend to his other Olympic hopeful, John Curry. Hamill was so mad that she decided to pitch Fassi for the Olympics and stick with her interim cioach but the USFSA wouldn't let her, thus giving Fassi a twofer at the 1976 Olympics.

Annett Potzsch, by the way, was coached by (the late) Jutta Müller, who also coached Katarina Witt to Olympic gold. Potzsch later married Katerina Witt's brother, and in 2000 their daughter won the German pairrs title with partner... Robin Szolkowy. Jutta Muller's daughter, Gabriele Seyfert, was Olympic silver medalist in 1968 (Peggy Fleming gold).

And that is all I know about the small world of East German figure skating back in the day.

I mean this whole thing about delegitimizing the win of AP and saying LF lost only because of corruption. Who would have motive to do that? Big mystery. lol

 

[Mathman]

I mean this whole thing about delegitimizing the win of AP and saying LF lost only because of corruption. Who would have motive to do that? Big mystery. lol

That actually is not entirely just a rhetorical question. What IS the motive for wuzrobbing when you come up on the short end.

When Tara Lipinski beat Michelle Kwan at the 1998 Olympics Frank Carroll was very careful to take Michelle aside and explain to her the exact skating points on which Tara performed better that day. He didn't want Michelle to go forward wallowing in bitterness about unfair judging, poisoning her outlook on life forever.

 

[SmileHappy34]

I like this thread.
I like the word wallowing.
I like that Frank pulled Michelle aside and told her the reasons not Linda. Yet he allowed over loss.

I like fans wallow over scores the skaters should receive .

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Even though we're talking about the Olympics, the first thought that came to my mind was Mao winning 2010 Worlds without winning the SP or the LP.

 

[TontoK]

I think that "something like that" is a good way to put it. Wikipedia says:

"The results of both the men's and ladies' singles events were dominated by placements in the compulsory figures, which at the time were nominally worth 50% of the total score but in fact weighted more heavily than the free skating due to being judged using a wider range of marks."

I believe that the rules for combining scores were in flux during that period, and that the formulas were fairly complicated, involving things like how many judges placed a particular skater in a particular ordinal position on each figure separately, etc.

I do know that Peggy Fleming holds the all-time record score in the history of figure skating with 1970.5 points.-- whatever that means. But it's a useful fact to know when fans start bragging that their guy just scored 300 points. Heck, Peggy got that much for one figure.

This was even before my time, if you can believe it, but I think the marks used to actually count in the score, rather than just being proxies for placement ordinals.

Example: If the first-place skater scored 5.8's in the free skate, and the second-place skater scored 5.7 and 5.8, then the placement is clear, but the actual marks are very close together. There's very little differential in the score.

But in figures, the first-place skater might score 5.5 and the second-place skater might score 4.8. Again, the placement is clear, but the score differential is much more massive.

And by all accounts - there's not even a hint of dispute that I've ever seen - Trixie Schuba was lightyears ahead of her contemporaries in figures and she could build up a huge score lead in figures, and weather a 7th-place free skate with ease and pocket the gold.

 

[Mathman]

This was even before my time, if you can believe it, but I think the marks used to actually count in the score, rather than just being proxies for placement ordinals.

Example: If the first-place skater scored 5.8's in the free skate, and the second-place skater scored 5.7 and 5.8, then the placement is clear, but the actual marks are very close together. There's very little differential in the score.

My impression is that the rules were quite complicated back then and changed from year to year. Tim Woods' analysis that he lost the OGM because one of the judges was confused about whether the "factoring" rule was 10 (like at Worlds) or 12 (whether carried over from previous Olympics or rushed into place for the current one) us quite intriguing to me.

Maybe our resident historian-encyclopedist gkelly (or gkelly's grandmother) can help us understand all the ins and outs.