Error in Communication 2732 ? (Pairs age)

[jan.zilka]

I believe there is an error stated in Communication 2732, page 2, section c) statement, that limits men in pair skating by age 21:

The Communication says:
"For the ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships ...must not have reached the age of ... twenty-one for Men in Pair Skating and Ice Dance competition."


Proposal 45 in Las Vegas' Council said that:

Proposal 45 [ACCEPTED] (pg. 27): ISU Council - Change maximum age limits for junior pair skaters to less than 21 for women, and less than 23 for men. Change maximum age limits for junior ice dancers to less than 21 for both partners. (Current age limits in both disciplines are less than 19 for women, and less than 21 for men.) A maximum age gap of 7 years would be allowed between partners in both disciplines. Increase age limits for novice competitors (see below).

New wording shall be now:
Rule 108, paragraph 3:

b) In International Junior Competitions and ISU Junior Championships a Junior is a Skater who has met the following requirements before July 1 preceding the event:

i) has reached at least the age of thirteen;

ii) has not reached the age of nineteen for Women and Men in singles competition; and

iii) has not reached the age of twenty-one for Women and the age of twenty-three for Men in Pair Skating. A maximum age gap of 7 years is allowed between the two partners.

iv) has not reached the age of twenty-one for Women and the age of twenty-one for Men in Pair Skating and Ice Dance competition. A maximum age gap of 7 years is allowed between the two partners.

...and so on.

Anyone here to let ISU representatives to know that this error in the Communication 2732 needs to be fixed?

BTW check my calculator with porposal 45 on and off to verify the effect.

ISU Categories Calculator – Krasobruslení Brno

krasobruslenibrno.cz

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Are they talking only about age gaps for junior pairs? Apparently, since there are a number of senior pairs partnerships with age gaps over 8 years.

 

[lariko]

I think Berulava is 22... lol. Could it be a Berulava rule?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

It was a rule designed to assist young juniors whose female partners were affected adversely by the new age limit rule for ladies. By increasing junior pairs men's age limit, it allowed such affected teams to still be able to compete instead of splitting or having to wait around 2 or more years only able to compete domestically. Sadly, the rule has mostly helped young senior pairs men with young senior female partners to return to juniors and scoop up junior medals after more than a year's experience already in seniors!

 

[jan.zilka]

Current wording:

3. Age Limits for Single & Pair Skating / Ice Dance

a) In International Senior Competitions, ISU Senior Championships and the Olympic Winter Games, only Skaters may compete who have reached atleast the age of seventeen before July 1 preceding the Events.

b) In International Junior Competitions and ISU Junior Championships aJunior is a Skater who has met the following requirements before July 1 preceding the event:

i) has reached at least the age of thirteen;
ii) has not reached the age of nineteen for Women and Men in singlescompetition; and
iii) has not reached the age of twenty-one for Women and the age oftwenty-three for Men in Pair Skating. A maximum age gap of sevenyears is allowed between the two partners.
iv) has not reached the age of twenty-one for Women and the age oftwenty-one for Men in Ice Dance competition. A maximum age gapof 7 years is allowed between the two partners.

Source:
INTERNATIONAL SKATING UNIONCONSTITUTION
and
GENERAL REGULATIONS 2024
as accepted by the 59th Ordinary Congress
June 2024

URL:

https://isu-d8g8b4b7ece7aphs.a03.azurefd.net/isudamcontainer/CMS/Corporate-Site/Sports-Rules/Figure-Skating-Rules/Constitution-and-Special-Regulations/2024ConstitutionGeneralRegulationsFINAL0359870001741256957-1125.pdf

Or is it no more valid after the extraordinary a few weeks ago? I have not found anything that would discard this document. Am I wrong?

 

[lariko]

It was a rule designed to assist young juniors whose female partners were affected adversely by the new age limit rule for ladies. By increasing junior pairs men's age limit, it allowed such affected teams to still be able to compete instead of splitting or having to wait around 2 or more years only able to compete domestically. Sadly, the rule has mostly helped young senior pairs men with young senior female partners to return to juniors and scoop up junior medals after more than a year's experience already in seniors!

Ice dance was affected worse, with plenty of seniors coasting in juniors turning the entire JGP into a mockery of actual juniors. But since Metelkina/Berulava got the most negative publicity, the delay in implementation could be because Metelkina is 19 and Berulava is 22, so technically they are still junior eligible.

 

[saine]

Someone probably copied and pasted from the wrong document, they would've had to have a vote at Congress to change the age back.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Ice dance was affected worse, with plenty of seniors coasting in juniors turning the entire JGP into a mockery of actual juniors. But since Metelkina/Berulava got the most negative publicity, the delay in implementation could be because Metelkina is 19 and Berulava is 22, so technically they are still junior eligible.

Hmm, apparently no fed was advocating to assist any ice dance teams on the bubble. The sport is and has always been backwards and messy in how they operate. Metelkina/ Berulava need to pick a lane, in seniors preferably, and stay in it. Their success in slaying juniors prompted another senior level competitive team to return to juniors for 2025 junior Worlds, just to beat the younger teams and cop a medal. The point is, this is NOT the purpose for which the rule was implemented.

 

[lariko]

Hmm, apparently no fed was advocating to assist any ice dance teams on the bubble. The sport is and has always been backwards and messy in how they operate. Metelkina/ Berulava need to pick a lane, in seniors preferably, and stay in it. Their success in slaying juniors prompted another senior level competitive team to return to juniors for 2025 junior Worlds, just to beat the younger teams and cop a medal. The point is, this is NOT the purpose for which the rule was implemented.

Ice dancers did it en-masse last season to the point it was hard to tell if we are watching worst of seniors or best of juniors.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Ice dancers did it en-masse last season to the point it was hard to tell if we are watching worst of seniors or best of juniors.

No, they didn't, and certainly not more than the pairs teams.
Of 108 Ice Dance teams that competed internationally last season, 8 would not have been eligible under the old age rules (7.4%). Of these 8 teams, only 2 had previously competed as Seniors either nationally or internationally (Gauthier/Thieren and Wolfkostin/Chen), and only one of these teams simultaneously competed as Seniors (Wolfkostin/Chen, who did one Challenger (withdrew after RD) and Sr Nationals).
Of the 24 JGP medals (including JGPF), 8 were won by "Senior" teams (33.3%), and they made up 24% of competitors at Jr Worlds (6 out of 25). Two of the top 5 (gold and silver) and 4 out of the top 10 (1st, 2nd, 8th and 9th) would not have been Jr-eligible under the old rules.

In comparison, the pairs numbers:
16 out of 52 internationally competing Jr pairs would not have been Jr eligible (30.8%). Of these 16 pairs, 6 competed previously as Seniors internationally and 5 continued competing as Seniors internationally at the same time as competing as Juniors.
5 out of 15 JGP medals were won by "Senior" teams (33.3%), and they made up 45% of the field at Jr Worlds (9 out of 20). 4 out of the top 5 (all but 3rd) and 5 out of the top 10 (plus 9th) would not have been eligible under the old rules.

 

[lariko]

No, they didn't, and certainly not more than the pairs teams.
Of 108 Ice Dance teams that competed internationally last season, 8 would not have been eligible under the old age rules (7.4%). Of these 8 teams, only 2 had previously competed as Seniors either nationally or internationally (Gauthier/Thieren and Wolfkostin/Chen), and only one of these teams simultaneously competed as Seniors (Wolfkostin/Chen, who did one Challenger (withdrew after RD) and Sr Nationals).
Of the 24 JGP medals (including JGPF), 8 were won by "Senior" teams (33.3%), and they made up 24% of competitors at Jr Worlds (6 out of 25). Two of the top 5 (gold and silver) and 4 out of the top 10 (1st, 2nd, 8th and 9th) would not have been Jr-eligible under the old rules.

In comparison, the pairs numbers:
16 out of 52 internationally competing Jr pairs would not have been Jr eligible (30.8%). Of these 16 pairs, 6 competed previously as Seniors internationally and 5 continued competing as Seniors internationally at the same time as competing as Juniors.
5 out of 15 JGP medals were won by "Senior" teams (33.3%), and they made up 45% of the field at Jr Worlds (9 out of 20). 4 out of the top 5 (all but 3rd) and 5 out of the top 10 (plus 9th) would not have been eligible under the old rules.

Seems like very similar numbers to me. 33.3% for medals won for both disciplines, while it was won by only 7% (ID) participating versus 31% (pairs) participating. 4/6 senior teams ended in top ten in ID in JWC, and 5/9 teams in pairs ended in top 10 in JWC. In both disciplines, seniors hogged. It's a ridiculous situation. 20-somethings should not be competing against 13 yos. Plus, you are not counting those who wouldn't have stayed in juniors under old rules because it would stand out so much, but now with way older competitors being there, it looks perfectly legit, changing the whole point of juniors into a holding tank for teams from countries who already have leading senior teams so no incentive to even go senior. Imo, it's just a bad unintended consequence and if they roll the upper age limit back, I wouldn't mind because it protects more skaters that way. Sure, some pairs or dance will have to sit it out but by now that ripple effect of the lower age limit should have disappeared. They should not encourage the creation of teams with a 22 yo man and a 16 yo woman.

 

[4everchan]

I personally had no problem with the ice dancers using the new rules to remain juniors. However, for pairs, I did.
The top two teams in pairs had no business competing at junior worlds. No business. To me, it's a question of level. If the "seniorish" dancers compete or competed in seniors, they would be far away from the podium... it's not the case with "seniorish" pairs team who actually won big medals and placed high enough at senior events.

 

[lariko]

Ice dance is by far a bigger discipline though. So, it feels more unfair to me.

 

[4everchan]

Ice dance is by far a bigger discipline though. So, it feels more unfair to me.

I understand (I think ) what you mean... in the sense that it may have taken away spots from younger teams as the discipline is deeper in terms of young talent. But, in the long run, the younger teams who didn't get a spot last year, will certainly be able to make their way to competition, as they grow up and develop skills. Pairs are indeed a smaller discipline, so in that sense, perhaps that the "senior" skaters didn't take away from the younger teams in terms of participation. However, when watching the events, my issue was the extreme gap between the Senior pairs and the baby pairs in terms of levels, performance, elements and confidence. The baby dancers were more or less able to achieve, with way less quality, the same lifts and twizzles... but the baby pairs were nowhere near triples jumps and throws and harder lifts. This is where I feel that having these much older experienced teams, who medal at big Senior competition, not conducive to a great junior event. The seniorish dancers were much closer in level to the average junior ice dancer than to the top senior ice dancers, which isn't the truth with pairs.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Seems like very similar numbers to me. 33.3% for medals won for both disciplines, while it was won by only 7% (ID) participating versus 31% (pairs) participating. 4/6 senior teams ended in top ten in ID in JWC, and 5/9 teams in pairs ended in top 10 in JWC. In both disciplines, seniors hogged. It's a ridiculous situation. 20-somethings should not be competing against 13 yos. Plus, you are not counting those who wouldn't have stayed in juniors under old rules because it would stand out so much, but now with way older competitors being there, it looks perfectly legit, changing the whole point of juniors into a holding tank for teams from countries who already have leading senior teams so no incentive to even go senior. Imo, it's just a bad unintended consequence and if they roll the upper age limit back, I wouldn't mind because it protects more skaters that way. Sure, some pairs or dance will have to sit it out but by now that ripple effect of the lower age limit should have disappeared. They should not encourage the creation of teams with a 22 yo man and a 16 yo woman.

20-somethings were always at competitions with 13-year-olds. And not just in Juniors either, it's not been that long since 13-year-olds could compete on the Senior GP.

Genuine question, but is a team comprised of an 18 or 19-year-old and a 21-year-old a more Junior team than a team of two 19-year-olds? Or another team of, for example, a 19- and 17-year-old, who age out of Juniors two years earlier, all because the woman is the older one?
I didn't agree with raising the upper age limit for men in pairs, exactly because of the age difference that would be allowed. But in Ice Dance, if anything, increasing the age limit for women to the same age as men encourages forming partnerships close in age, as they get to stay in Juniors for the same time now as teams with a two-year age gap (Of course, in favour of the man).

Also, Ice Dancers have never had any issue with staying in Juniors until they aged out, especially if they thought they still had unfinished business. Virtue/Moir were considered to be really young in their first GP season, when they were 17 and 18/19. In 2023/24, before the age change, of the 96 internationally competing Jr Dance teams, 24 were in their last Junior season (25%).
It was unusual in pairs, though, you're right about that. Pairs used to move up to Juniors, and stay there, as soon as the female partner turned 15, especially if they were competitive at the Senior level. But that was pre-COVID and pre-Russian ban, so the situation in pairs was very different.

 

[lariko]

20-somethings were always at competitions with 13-year-olds. And not just in Juniors either, it's not been that long since 13-year-olds could compete on the Senior GP.

Genuine question, but is a team comprised of an 18 or 19-year-old and a 21-year-old a more Junior team than a team of two 19-year-olds? Or another team of, for example, a 19- and 17-year-old, who age out of Juniors two years earlier, all because the woman is the older one?
I didn't agree with raising the upper age limit for men in pairs, exactly because of the age difference that would be allowed. But in Ice Dance, if anything, increasing the age limit for women to the same age as men encourages forming partnerships close in age, as they get to stay in Juniors for the same time now as teams with a two-year age gap (Of course, in favour of the man).

Also, Ice Dancers have never had any issue with staying in Juniors until they aged out, especially if they thought they still had unfinished business. Virtue/Moir were considered to be really young in their first GP season, when they were 17 and 18/19. In 2023/24, before the age change, of the 96 internationally competing Jr Dance teams, 24 were in their last Junior season (25%).
It was unusual in pairs, though, you're right about that. Pairs used to move up to Juniors, and stay there, as soon as the female partner turned 15, especially if they were competitive at the Senior level. But that was pre-COVID and pre-Russian ban, so the situation in pairs was very different.

If ID stay in juniors until they are 21, we will get to see fewer teens competing in JGP. Personally, I admire the ardor younger teams bring to the ice in juniors vs super-mastery (which I don't really understand very well). Anyway, I am all for more teen teams in juniors, and guys in their twenties can go to seniors.

 

[lariko]

Also, I understand it is important for them, but as a viewer the same teams skating both jr and seniors is really boring because how many times can you see the same programs in one season.

 

[4everchan]

If ID stay in juniors until they are 21, we will get to see fewer teens competing in JGP. Personally, I admire the ardor younger teams bring to the ice in juniors vs super-mastery (which I don't really understand very well). Anyway, I am all for more teen teams in juniors, and guys in their twenties can go to seniors.

I understand where you are coming from, as I know you have been a great fans of younger skaters all the way through and it is a lot of fun indeed discovering these new, fresh and talented teenagers with so much joy for skating and competing. As figure skating fans, we are indeed privileged. I watch a lot of sports and there is absolutely NO way to watch younger swimmers, divers, speed skaters, tennis players in their junior career. Once in a while I will read that so and so is a junior world champion from Canada and be, never heard about them, never seen them compete, ok... let's wait a few years until they reach senior circuit and finally see what they are like... This may not make it better for you, because it doesn't fix the figure skating system the way you'd like it fixed... but trust me, we are lucky to even be able to watch these kids.

 

[lariko]

I understand where you are coming from, as I know you have been a great fans of younger skaters all the way through and it is a lot of fun indeed discovering these new, fresh and talented teenagers with so much joy for skating and competing. As figure skating fans, we are indeed privileged. I watch a lot of sports and there is absolutely NO way to watch younger swimmers, divers, speed skaters, tennis players in their junior career. Once in a while I will read that so and so is a junior world champion from Canada and be, never heard about them, never seen them compete, ok... let's wait a few years until they reach senior circuit and finally see what they are like... This may not make it better for you, because it doesn't fix the figure skating system the way you'd like it fixed... but trust me, we are lucky to even be able to watch these kids.

well, we all know what our junior hockey champions are like now... unfortunately.

 

[4everchan]

well, we all know what our junior hockey champions are like now... unfortunately.

ugh... don't bring those up... that's the ones we do not want to watch....