Replay Lounge 2025 NHK Trophy

[Sai Bon]

Haven't watched the men's FP or pairs FP, but from what I've seen and read (including an interview with Yuma after NHK), I'm sure nobody wants Yuma to get his shit together more than himself. He is acutely aware that Shun is hot on his heels and he needs to up his game. I'm thrilled for Shun - he's done incredibly well after his injuries. I think a healthy rivalry between them will have a positive effect on both.

 

[Marius]

Yuna'S FS is wonderful. My favourite ladies' program of the season.

 

[lariko]

It must be noted that NHK Trophy is the only international competition in Japan being broadcasted on primetime by one of its biggest broadcasters (the titular NHK).

The reason I give this context is because figure skating has limited broadcast in Japan and its continuously being chipped away to be put under streaming services or paid satellite TV. Meaning that for most Japanese people, the only casual exposure they have to international competitive figure skating is NHK Trophy. The videos we enjoy here or on Twitter / Youtube don't reach casual Japanese people.

Viewed by this lens, Shun is lowkey a nobody. This is his first NHK Trophy assignment, and he's never been on Nationals podium. While Yuma was aiming to become the first Japanese man to win his 3rd consecutive NHK Trophy, a feat that hasn't been done by any of Japan's male stars, and a very neat headline to tie this one competition in a bow for casual viewers who don't/can't watch figure skating anywhere else.

Is Yuma still the better skater overall? Yes. Can his win be justified? Also Yes. But if this competition had been on another GP, it's close enough for another result to probably shake out, under the current rules.

I see the 2 point gap as a warning to Yuma to get his shit together. On a different ice, there are many other interests that would love to cannibalize his scores and reputation, if he continues to make mistakes on a jump layout that should have been comfortable for him.

I feel that in basically any other GP Sato would have won, because he was clean and his tech was higher with PCSs not that much lower than Kagiyama's. That's if the simple calculation that Sato will get into GPF with 28 points and it's bad to start Kagiyama on 13 is not factored in. I think if Kagiyama started earlier and had already had 15 points, Sato would have won even in Japan. I don't think this qualifies as a conspiracy, really, where judges are outright bribed/it's easy to see a 'block' in judging, but more of a group think that delivers an expected/more desired result for the perceived common good. I mean, we all know Sato was better, except a bit lower in glide department. But he also has better aestetics on ice than Kagiyama with more pleasing bearing and higher jumps, and this time better spins.

 

[rabidline]

I feel that in basically any other GP Sato would have won, because he was clean and his tech was higher with PCSs not that much lower than Kagiyama's. That's if the simple calculation that Sato will get into GPF with 28 points and it's bad to start Kagiyama on 13 is not factored in. I think if Kagiyama started earlier and had already had 15 points, Sato would have won even in Japan. I don't think this qualifies as a conspiracy, really, where judges are outright bribed/it's easy to see a 'block' in judging, but more of a group think that delivers an expected/more desired result for the perceived common good. I mean, we all know Sato was better, except a bit lower in glide department. But he also has better aestetics on ice than Kagiyama with more pleasing bearing and higher jumps, and this time better spins.

Basically yes. Yuma is the better skater, but Shun was the better competitor at NHK. It could have gone the way Ami Nakai won vs Kaori at GP France: the better competitor over the weekend wins over the better skater. But like there was an argument for Kaori to win over Ami, here there's also an argument for Yuma to win over Shun.

Yuma will have a chance to stop the bleeding soon though. Siao Him Fa on European ice next.

 

[lariko]

Basically yes. Yuma is the better skater, but Shun was the better competitor at NHK. It could have gone the way Ami Nakai won vs Kaori at GP France: the better competitor over the weekend wins over the better skater. But like there was an argument for Kaori to win over Ami, here there's also an argument for Yuma to win over Shun.

Yuma will have a chance to stop the bleeding soon though. Siao Him Fa on European ice next.

I favor SHF in this match up, but SHF had his own troubles in recent seasons, so it's hard to say who could win. On the balance, I believe Sato is a better skater than Kagiyama, since he has more pluses (and always did) and only one small disadvantage versus Kagiyama. Hopefully, he can also bring one more quad as season progresses and his injury heals, and reorder the Japanese male skating. Kagiyama will be a really solid number 2 if he leaves only two quads and doesn't go for the third in his layout. It will always guarantee Japanese men 3 spots.

 

[Mathman]

I feel that in basically any other GP Sato would have won, because he was clean and his tech was higher....

Was it really, though? In the LP Kagiyama's base value was 86.70 to Sato's 84.61 (but the fall squelched Yuma's chances). In the SP, Shun won the tech base value battle, by doing a 4Lz(q) to yuma's 4S -- but the most important difference was Kagiyama getting zeroed out on a spin.

 

[Sai Bon]

Was it really, though? In the LP Kagiyama's base value was 86.70 to Sato's 84.61 (but the fall squelched Yuma's chances). In the SP, Shun won the tech base value battle, by doing a 4Lz(q) to yuma's 4S -- but the most important difference was Kagiyama getting zeroed out on a spin.

Shun was also getting level 3s on his spins and steps. I think that's actually an improvement - I think he used to get level 2s sometimes.

 

[skylark]

Finally watched the women's FS and wow. I was blown away, emotionally engaged with Loena Hendrickx and Sofia Samodelkina's programs; they both took me on a beautiful heartfelt journey. After those 2 programs, Sakamoto's skating just seemed empty with a lot of speed and arm waving. Yuna Aoki's skating is beautiful too but didn't take me away.

And the Pairs FS (always my favorite) was just disappointing, to have the result be so clearly manipulated. But then afterwards, I found myself returning to one program again and again ... Surprise! It was to Emily Chan and Spencer Akira Howe's Ghost Story. They both seemed more engaged and connected with each other ... which always gives the audience a treat, because again, C/H took me on an emotional journey. I often have felt Spencer was playing to the audience. But on this occasion, he and Emily both were giving their all to each other, and thus giving something special for the audience to be part of.

I noticed that even when Spencer had Emily on his shoulder toward the end of the program, he couldn't look at her face because she was above his head, but I still felt that wonderful connection between them, with his smile. Emily's subtler responses were just as wonderful.

I can only respond to figure skating programs that make me feel something, and this FS filled that emotional space.

P.S. The pairs FS is still up, on Peacock. Give Emily and Spencer another look-see! It's really something special.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yagiyama 3loop and 3axel were underrrotated in my opinion - VIDEO below.

Those jumps are sufficiently rotated, you're looking at something very strangely to think otherwise.

We don't need different tech calls to explain that he deserved to lose. It's usually the inflation of GOE/PCS for one skater compared to another that creates these results.

 

[Arigato]

This week he missed whole spin element in Short Program AGAINST clean program of Shun Sato

You and I have a different idea of what clean is. Sato had negative GOE and a q call on element #1 in the SP. 4Lz. That is not clean. Furthermore, it's not as if Sato hasn't had a problem with that 4Lz in the past. One can easily scan his past performances with a 4Lz using Skatingscores.com

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Note that, their head being from Speed Skating, during her tenure at the Japanese federation, she also allocated 70% of resources to Speed Skating and only 30% on Figure Skating (which may be one of the causes of the Japanese relative weaknesses in Pairs and Ice Dance)

Interesting. That's probably the case overall re how the ISU manages revenue. I'll bet a higher percentage of funding is allocated to speedskating and a lower percentage to figure skating, despite figure skating bringing in the most revenue. A huge reason why figure skating needs to separate from the ISU and manage its own separate sport! But the organizational structure and politics of the ISU are so entrenched and set in stone, that is unlikely to happen.

Figure skating advocates historically shot themselves and figure skating in the foot when they didn't try to organize separately, but faultily thought they needed to beg to join the ISU, a group set up by and for speedskaters in the late 1800s. SMH! This historical reality explains so much about the ongoing problems that challenge the sport of figure skating.

European bloc judging was definitely huge in figure skating for decades. We all know about the 2002 Olympic pairs tit-for-tat judging scandal. There may yet be a quid-pro-quo that operates today in more subtle ways. There could be some backroom dealmaking. Politics, favoritism, and judging based on status, perception, and reputation still exists in the sport, and factors into final results to some degree, especially for major competitions. All skaters can do is skate their best and hope that the judging is as fair as possible. Still, many factors are involved, including health of skaters; condition of the ice and of their boots; camera angles; federation politics; ISU judging politics; and the makeup of judging panels from event-to-event.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

But on this occasion, he and Emily both were giving their all to each other, and thus giving something special for the audience to be part of.

Yes. In their sp at Trialeti Cup, they were also both emoting. It probably helps that their programs are repeats from prior seasons. It was necessary for them to bring back earlier programs, though, due to a slower season start because of Spencer's military athlete program commitment. It's nice to see Emily more visibly expressing her emotional commitment. I would guess that being in love and happy has enhanced her ability to outwardly express on the ice more of her inner passion.

 

[lariko]

Was it really, though? In the LP Kagiyama's base value was 86.70 to Sato's 84.61 (but the fall squelched Yuma's chances). In the SP, Shun won the tech base value battle, by doing a 4Lz(q) to yuma's 4S -- but the most important difference was Kagiyama getting zeroed out on a spin.

Yes, because Sato's second quad is Lz versus S and he showed 5 landed quads across two programs versus Kagiyama's 4, plus his both 3A were in combinations, while Kagiyama landed only one 3A in a combo. In short, Kagiyama didn't demonstrate an ability to produce a spin of a high level when he is landing a quad, while Sato did. On the other hand, Sato didn't demonstrate an ability to produce level 4 step sequences while landing quads. But neither did Kagiyama since his StSq in the short was also level 3. I am sure people who love their angles can also take a look at Kagiyama rotations, and I have an inkling that his 3As and 4Ts will be q at least sometimes. One thing that I do not see Sato demonstrating is the confident command of all triples as he is not using 3F. So, question mark there.

 

[Marius]

Yes, because Sato's second quad is Lz versus S and he showed 5 landed quads across two programs versus Kagiyama's 4, plus his both 3A were in combinations, while Kagiyama landed only one 3A in a combo. In short, Kagiyama didn't demonstrate an ability to produce a spin of a high level when he is landing a quad, while Sato did. On the other hand, Sato didn't demonstrate an ability to produce level 4 step sequences while landing quads. But neither did Kagiyama since his StSq in the short was also level 3. I am sure people who love their angles can also take a look at Kagiyama rotations, and I have an inkling that his 3As and 4Ts will be q at least sometimes. One thing that I do not see Sato demonstrating is the confident command of all triples as he is not using 3F. So, question mark there.

Sato has had problems with edge calls on the Flip in the past. Also, personally I don't think his Lutz does take off from an outside edge, but that's a problem Yuma has too.
I honestly don't think Yuma's win here was outrageous.

 

[lariko]

Sato has had problems with edge calls on the Flip in the past. Also, personally I don't think his Lutz does take off from an outside edge, but that's a problem Yuma has too.
I honestly don't think Yuma's win here was outrageous.

Nobody said it was outrageous.

 

[rabidline]

European bloc judging was definitely huge in figure skating for decades

It's still quite influential now, depending on where you want to look. Men's in particular for the last quad.... But Ilia makes for a very good distraction from all that.

 

[noskates]

Just mark me down as someone who thoroughly enjoyed Yuma's programs - both of them. Sato doesn't affect me the same way in fact (heresy) I find his skating sort of boring. In the final analysis, it's who moves me and makes me want to keep watching the program again and again. The nitpicking over particulars is just getting more and more annoying. The average figure skating fan, I'll bet, would agree with me.

And Spencer and Emily have always been one of my favorite pairs teams. He is so emotive and so fun to watch. I think injuries have held them back in the past couple of years. They do seem to be improving with each competition and I'm looking forward to seeing them at Nationals this year.

 

[jersey1302]

Ok so I’ll just say some of my thoughts on all categories here while not rambling for a 5000 word essay lol..

Ice Dance

Welcome back Shibs! 7 plus years away from competition really showed. Also in saying that.. I thought they skates really well for being away for TWO OLYMPIC CYCLES..not 1. That’s crazy. I think basically we saw how the sport has changed and they haven’t caught up yet too. Not to mention elements that they’ve never competed like a choreo step and one foot step sequence. Huge learning curve. I’ll leave that there.

Taschlers.. loved the matrix.. very creative, original, cool.. their rd..is pretty good if they weren’t siblings lol. Music choices were questionable. lol

The Italians, had a much better outing, minus the mistake in the rd on the twizzles. They looked a bit faster than last event, Charlene didn’t look as stiff, they skated nice but they still left me feeling a bit empty. Their skates were fine, they were good. Not sure what else to say so that’s probably not a great thing if I’m being left with nothing to say.

Lilah and Lewis have come to rock out with the fans. They’re very aware of their strengths and have leaned hard into
It. Are their skating skills marks maybe a bit high.. yeah probably but then again they’re doing everything at 40 km/hr on the ice for. 4 min as well lol and that’s skill haha. They’ve just completely nailed it with both dances, all the choreography that uses the musics nuances with their feet is so difficult to do and they make it look so easy. Both programs are so much fun to watch and is clearly resonating with the judges as well. Their opening combo lift starting from nothing and her almost pair like throw dismount while still holding his hand is brilliant. I’m along for the ride and I’m gripping the handle bars. Lol

Pairs

Sui/Han .. still need a lot more time. Their two lifts on their free skate, almost came to a halt and one almost didn’t go up at all. , it still looks like they’re thinking during their program, it’s laboured, etc. regarding their scoring.. I think it’s much too high right now. If any other paid that was new and skated exactly like they are I can guarantee you they’d be a minimum of 9 points less. Curious to know what others think.

Nagaoka/Moriguchi were soooooo great to watch. They look so good, they skate so nice together, their lifts are fantastic, fast, sturdy, great twist and throws, they need to work on the execution of elements to gain that valuable GOE. If they figure that part out, they will be knocking on that Olympic podium particularly if others fall. Also I e said this on my YouTube channel and pod previously.. I hate pairs jump sequences.. this was the 1/1000 that I was very ok with.

Women
Sofia get a medal, she looked great. Loved seeing Leona back and on the podium ..barely. Kaori was queen.. the end. lol. Sarah Everheardt needs to really work on settling into her program. She looks too technical focused meaning all I see her is thinking about next jump and element. The choreo is just moves she’s doing because she’s supposed to. Give her time to grow, experience will come around in the next few years. I think she’s being scored fair. Ive read a lot of online opinions about her getting stiffed.. I don’t see it. Second year senior is real tough especially when you come onto first year and surprise everyone.. expectations rise and sometimes they rise too high to be realistic.

Men

Jimmy if you’re going to skate to it’s raining men and ymca.. you better give it all to me.. and I didnt feel it. He looked kind of awkward or questioning if he should be doing this lol. I felt it was more exhibition program than a competitive free skate at this point.

 

[sisinka]

I agree. I can't believe that Kagiyama have a perfect technique if he falls so much and so predictably. He either doesn't have enough height in a jump to complete rotations or have some other problem, like controling his speed on entry. I think it's the lack of height in a jump that results in unders/falls on otherwise pretty jumps.

Seeing that it's Kagiyama who was pegged as Uno's successor to the title of the first man in Japan, they simply can't start him with second place in home GP, particularly since Sato started with gold. If Sato beats him in the final... now he has a chance to grab the crown. In juniors, Kagiyama had to fall 3 times for a clean program with approximately the same tech to beat him. For clean Sato to beat him, two falls probably will be enough, but he didn't fall twice.

Well, so you suppose it is the tactic. I get the point.

Me personally I would rather like to believe that it was lack of good camera's angles.

But @lariko's mention caused that I tried to remember moments, when national number 1 lost to his colleague...
There were few in past. And it didn't meant the lost chance for medals in future.

It must be noted that NHK Trophy is the only international competition in Japan being broadcasted on primetime by one of its biggest broadcasters (the titular NHK).

The reason I give this context is because figure skating has limited broadcast in Japan and its continuously being chipped away to be put under streaming services or paid satellite TV. Meaning that for most Japanese people, the only casual exposure they have to international competitive figure skating is NHK Trophy. The videos we enjoy here or on Twitter / Youtube don't reach casual Japanese people.

Viewed by this lens, Shun is lowkey a nobody. This is his first NHK Trophy assignment, and he's never been on Nationals podium. While Yuma was aiming to become the first Japanese man to win his 3rd consecutive NHK Trophy, a feat that hasn't been done by any of Japan's male stars, and a very neat headline to tie this one competition in a bow for casual viewers who don't/can't watch figure skating anywhere else.

Is Yuma still the better skater overall? Yes. Can his win be justified? Also Yes. But if this competition had been on another GP, it's close enough for another result to probably shake out, under the current rules.

I see the 2 point gap as a warning to Yuma to get his shit together. On a different ice, there are many other interests that would love to cannibalize his scores and reputation, if he continues to make mistakes on a jump layout that should have been comfortable for him.

That is interesting point of view. And information which non-Japanese people cannot know.

You and I have a different idea of what clean is. Sato had negative GOE and a q call on element #1 in the SP. 4Lz. That is not clean. Furthermore, it's not as if Sato hasn't had a problem with that 4Lz in the past. One can easily scan his past performances with a 4Lz using Skatingscores.com

4lutz is very difficult, it was executed well with exception of small underrotation. Level 3 in spins is loss of points, if you want to take it as a mistake, OK.

As to GOE - judges MUST go down with GOE (-1 to -2) when "q" is called. After landing 4lutz, Shun got +1.73 points of GOE from judges, which is between GOE 1 and GOE 2, so they quite liked the execution of the jump. Finally Shun got -0.82 points of GOE.

 

[sisinka]

Those jumps are sufficiently rotated, you're looking at something very strangely to think otherwise.

We don't need different tech calls to explain that he deserved to lose. It's usually the inflation of GOE/PCS for one skater compared to another that creates these results.

There is a difference saing:
- "I don't see it."
- "I don't care."
- "It is not there."

I think most of us are fine with first two sentences.
You used something similar to the third sentence. So I will try to explain my thoughts.

My posts will have TWO PARTS. Thanks to videos I have to use more posts. If you don't want to read some kind of technical notes, overjump to part 2 immediately.

PART 1 (1/3):

Sorry for not precise vocabularies, in Czech it goes much more easy.

In past I listened to Technical Specialist's description of finished rotations. How I understand the situation, Technical Specialists are looking at take-off arc of the jump and comparing it with moment when blade touches the ice in landing (position of the body and boot / blade is important, as it must be the same - TURNED in the same position / direction / angle in both take-off arc and moment of landing).

One of signs of "problematic and suspicious" landing is for example - not fluent landing, scratching the ice, ice spread, land on toepick and turn another degrees, ...

So coming back to Yuma's 3flip + 3loop combination.

Landing position of 3flip - the moment when toepick touches the ice. If we would take this position like take-off arc of 3loop, yes, rotation would be enough. But realise that if THIS would be true, how much pre-rotation he would get then - it would be almost 3/4 of rotation since he gets into the air. Which is not typical for Yuma.

Now look at other skaters performing 3loop as the second jump - Alina Zagitova and Juhnwan Cha. And watch their moment of landing of the first jump VERSUS take-off arc of the second loop jump.



Do you see it? In their case it is very nicely visible that body and blade position in moment of landing of the first jump is not the same like body and blade position in take-off arc of the second loop jump. You can see it very well because they create some trajectory before they start with 3loop. So where will you start to count full three rotations of loop jump from? Definitely NOT from the position of toepick touching the ice of lutz.

In Yuma's case he is doing the loop jump very quickly after the first jump, creating very short take-off arc of loop. In his case it is indeed difficult to find take-off arc and position of body / blade which would be compared to landing moment.

But I will give another note. Watch Yuma - in what moment he gets at the full blade after flip. Because loop is the edge jump, right, you start from the blade. Yuma lands 3flip on toepick and then he starts turning while going on the blade. Watch his body position and blade position in moment when being on full blade AND compare this to his position while touching the ice with his toepick in loop landing. There is indeed lack of 3 full rotations.

And another note. Watch Yuma's knee action. Watch moment when he pushes into the knee, that's when the pre-rotation of the jump starts. Once again watch Alina and Juhnwan with pushing into the knees - it happens while they are in their take-off arc for 3loop. Full three rotations since this moment till landing moment in Yuma's case? No.

...