Cinquanta seeks to test track team competition for Olympics

[janetfan]

It
Meanwhile the wood-pushers, even though they play only one game per day, or at most two, are utterly exhausted at the end of a week or ten days and are just begging for it please to be over (trust me on this. )

I will trust you on this one
But what is a "wood pusher" - and would you be one of them at a chess tournament?

Do you know where the competitions bewteen - um....Kasparoff and "Big Blue" (or whatever the name of the computer was that he played against?)
Was it true that the computer was being secretly assisted by a grand master or two without Kasparoff's knowledge?
Thanks for any infos

 

[Medusa]

Do you know where the competitions bewteen - um....Kasparoff and "Big Blue" (or whatever the name of the computer was that he played against?)
Was it true that the computer was being secretly assisted by a grand master or two without Kasparoff's knowledge?
Thanks for any infos

I heart Kasparov! If he had been a figure skater, I would have made a Kasparov banner at some time. (wasn't the name of the computer Deep Fritz?) Plus Kasparov is sexy. Probably only because he is really smart (I dig smart men) and, duh, brave!

Ahh, completely off topic post. I should be sleeping, but I have a horrific stomach ache. :disapp:

 

[janetfan]

I heart Kasparov! If he had been a figure skater, I would have made a Kasparov banner at some time. (wasn't the name of the computer Deep Fritz?) Plus Kasparov is sexy. Probably only because he is really smart (I dig smart men) and, duh, brave!

Ahh, completely off topic post. I should be sleeping, but I have a horrific stomach ache. :disapp:

I don't know or remember about "Deep Fritz" or "Baby Blue Bomb" or whatever the computer's name was. Or how the tournament turned out. I think Kasparoff won one and lost one against the computer. Not sure if there was a third match.
I seem to remember Kasparoff accused the tech controllers for the computer's team of cheating. Sound familiar
Hope you feel better soon.
Please avoid eating watermelon seeds and chocolate candles.

 

[Mathman]

But what is a "wood pusher" - and would you be one of them at a chess tournament?

A wood-pusher is a bad chess player -- he is not really playing the game, he is just pushing wood around the board.

A "fish" is a wood-pusher who gets suckered into playing for money, especially in Central Park. Speaking of Bobby Fischer, when he was a teenager he used to hustle for quarters at the Manhatten Chess Club. I never beat him (knight odds).

Do you know where the competitions bewteen - um....Kasparoff and "Big Blue" (or whatever the name of the computer was that he played against?)

Here are the complete games, on the IBM site.

http://www.research.ibm.com/deepblue/watch/html/c.shtml

In 1994, Kasparov squared off against the IBM program called "Deep Thought" (a play on "Deep Throat." ) Kasparov won handily.

Two years later, the new program was called Deep Blue. Kasparov lost the first game -- the first time a computer had ever beaten a world champiopn. But Kasparov rallied and won the match, 4-2.

The rematch was in 1997. This time Deep Blue won 2 games. Kasparov won 1, and there were three draws.

Deep Fritz was a competitor of Deep Blue. An early version of Fritz beat Blue in the early 90s. A decade later, after IBM lost interest in chess-playing proigrams, Fritz drew with Kramnik in 2002, drew with Kasparov in 2003, and finally beat Kramnik in 2006.

Interestingly, the newer versions of chess programs are pretty much all the same. The improvement has come in the hardware. Chess computers can now analyze billions of positions per second, so they don't really have to "think" much any more.

Was it true that the computer was being secretly assisted by a grand master or two without Kasparoff's knowledge?

No. At that time Kasparov would have crushed any other (human) grandmaster.

 

[Mathman]

PS. Here is the five-time World Champion, playing the same opening (the Sicilian Defence) that Kasparov used in games 1 and 3 of the 1996 match.

It's MK's move.

 

[janetfan]

No. At that time Kasparov would have crushed any other (human) grandmaster.

I am sure you are right about that.
What I was referring to was a claim that Kasparov made after losing a game to Deep Blue. I seem to recall that he questioned some of the computer's moves - and suggested that a "team" of grand masters were monitoring every move and making some changes.
Did you ever hear anything like that? This may have been something I heard on talk radio years ago - so I have no idea if this was true or not.
Did you really play Bobby Fischer? Maybe you should have played him for nickles instead of quarters

 

[Kimmie Fan]

I think figure skating is the most mentally draining sport.
I can't think of another sport where the athlete is so exposed to pressure.
In the vast stage of ice arena, skater is all alone.
The entire arena, judges, cameras, tv viewers, internet audience are solely focused on every move the skater makes.
That is lot of pressure!

Yeah, boxing, cycling and others maybe more physically demanding, but they have opponents to which they can react against or focus on.
Skater doesn't face their opponent. Its just you.
There is no time out or coaching during the performance

And because the actual skating is so short in duration, there is that much more pressure to execute, perform at maximum, at the precise moment.
Just imagine if championship boxing was only 1 round. What if Tiger Woods only get 1 hole to decide the Masters?
There is no "time" to make a comeback in such scenario. You either get it done at that exact moment or you lose.

So I think FS is a unique sport that can't be really compared with any other sport.
The physical and mental demands that FS require has no equivalent, so any comparisons are moot.

 

[janetfan]

I think figure skating is the most mentally draining sport.
I can't think of another sport where the athlete is so exposed to pressure.
In the vast stage of ice arena, skater is all alone.
The entire arena, judges, cameras, tv viewers, internet audience are solely focused on every move the skater makes.
That is lot of pressure!

So I think FS is a unique sport that can't be really compared with any other sport.
The physical and mental demands that FS require has no equivalent, so any comparisons are moot.

I agree that there is a unique pressure in figure skating, especially at big events like the Olympics.
But there are many pressure packed situations that athletes in other sports face.
Imagine playing in the World Cup final. The game and overtime periods have ended in a tie and now come the dreaded penalty kicks.
A player only has one chance to make a shot that when executed properly will score every time. If he misses there is NO second chance or anyway to fix the error. There is a live audience - not of 16,000 like in figure skating - but a stadium with 80,000 fans watching. The TV audience is the largest by far in the world, probably 10 times bigger than for Olympic skating. To add to the pressure, an entire nation's hopes are focused on a player's penalty shot. Make it and you are a hero. Miss it and you will be reviled, (some have been beaten and even murdered after they return home). Thankfully Michelle and Sasha never faced such extreme pressure and fan reaction.
Then there is the Goalie to consider. It is no picnic for him either.
Given the choice, I would rather face the pressure of skating at the Olympics than having to take a penalty shot at the World Cup. But that is just me.
And I think your post is very good - but there are many pressure packed situations in sport. Serving out the last game for the Wimbledon Tennis championship has caused some of the greatest players in history to fold up and choke.
Lance Armstrong was once asked what it is like riding down a mountain in the Alps at speeds of 60 miles per hour. Slow down and you may lose the race. Crash at that speed and you could die. Lance answered" I try not to think about it."

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
Good post! Athletes are atheles or they wouldn't be playing all the games. I think some fans are worried about the ladies being too tired to compete and represent their countries in a Team Championship. I have full faith in the Men, Pairs and Dance showing up for this possible event. Miss Otis regrets the poor little girls are unable to show up. So bring on the 2nd tier Ladies and let's have a Team Championship at the Olys.

 

[Medusa]

So bring on the 2nd tier Ladies and let's have a Team Championship at the Olys.

But if there is a Team Championship, would they make it like the World Team Trophy? 2 men, 2 women, one pair and one dance pair? That would definitely help a nation like Japan, who have one alibi pair and one alibi dance pair so far. But would it be really fair?

 

[janetfan]

But if there is a Team Championship, would they make it like the World Team Trophy? 2 men, 2 women, one pair and one dance pair? That would definitely help a nation like Japan, who have one alibi pair and one alibi dance pair so far. But would it be really fair?

No, I don't think it is fair at all. I would like 2 skaters and 2 teams. But if bigger federations wanted to use some subs that doesn't bother me. Or does that might seem unfair?

 

[Mathman]

However you set it up, the countries with the best skaters are going to have an "unfair" advantage over other teams.

Like in gymnastics, there are are only three or four national teams who are actually in the medal race. That's just the way it is, if you think of the Olympics as a contest of nations instead of a contest of athletes.

I think a good format would be one SP/OD and one LP/FD in each of the four disciplines, with different skaters doing the two parts. Or (time permitting) two in each, then take the better of the two scores.

Then there should be an "all-around" individual champion. Someone like Yamaguchi/Galindo, who would have to do a ladies singles program, a men's singles program, a pairs program, and a dance program.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But if there is a Team Championship, would they make it like the World Team Trophy? 2 men, 2 women, one pair and one dance pair? That would definitely help a nation like Japan, who have one alibi pair and one alibi dance pair so far. But would it be really fair?

I think it should be for all the skaters in the Olympics, but I would leave that up to Cinquanta since it is his baby - maybe with some good input from others on how it should run.

There is also an award for individuals in this. Is there not? Just thinking of Gymnastics.

 

[Mafke]

but I would leave that up to Cinquanta since it is his baby

Never has the term 'spawn of Satan' seemed more appropriate.

 

[janetfan]

Never has the term 'spawn of Satan' seemed more appropriate.

:chorus:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Never has the term 'spawn of Satan' seemed more appropriate.

Who would bear the child? :chorus:

 

[greengal5874]

I think that this could be fabulous for the Oly if held AFTER the individuals. Some skaters that just missed out on a medal (4th place, etc.) or had a meltdown would be given one last chance to redeem/prove themselves and possibly get an Oly medal. I really think that it could drive them- I bet there would be some standout performances!!!

I also think that in due time (by 2020 at latest) China, Italy, etc. will have caught up in terms of filling a reputable Team. If this is in the Oly, they WILL start working on their areas that are lacking.

I really think that this will increase performance values, the level of skating, and hopefully FANS in the long run. I think it is a fabulous idea. I wouldn't even mind if the short/long had to be drawn out of a hat! Ha!

 

[Mafke]

I'm just not feeling any love for this idea (if it's just another SP/LP fest with exactly the same style of high-risk move skating as before). IT means more skating but less variety and I can't see it attracting any fans.

On the other hand, I'm trying to think of ways to make it interesting.

Since pairs and dancers already compete in teams I see no need to include them here.

Had someone had the idea 25 years ago, I think three member teams in a three stage competition (with any team fielding one or at most two skaters for any segment and each skater has to appear in at least one).

1. figures (two skaters do one figure each or one skater does two)

2. fixed program (with very specific required elements and scored more according to excellence of execution rather than ugly 'difficulty')

3. freer program (shorter than the LP with some limits on jumps and changes of position in spins to make it different from the individual competition)

Today maybe I'd go for four member teams (two men, two ladies each). With a compulsory round (again based on execution rather than point getting features) and a freer program that's still obviously different from the individual competition.
Maybe one man and one lady can skate in each section.

 

[Kimmie Fan]

I really like the idea of team medal competition.
First week of the Olympics is singles competition.
Then toward the end of second week is the team competition.

In the interest of time and suitable rest for skaters, team competition would probably be limited to "one round" of free skate.

As for the makeup of the team, I think each team should have at least 1 representative in each discipline.
Strategy comes into play for the "5th member" of the team. That skater/couple is at the discretion of the nation. For example, Japan would probably pick a female skater, China would pick a pairs team.

As for points distribution, there should be equal distribution of points for all discipline.
For example, 1st place receives 10 points. 2nd - 8, 3rd - 6, then 5,4,3,2,1.