I really hate the disruption argument many people make. Incorrect technique is an error and should be penalized. Even though mistakes can be estherically pleasing doesn't mean they shouldn't be penalized. Other sports with judged competitions all hand out penalties for incorrect technique, even though the errors may still be esthetically pleasing. In fact, I was watching Caroline skate once with a friend and my friend asked if her difficult variation (read mule kick) gained more points. Because she thought the mule kick looked good, should it not be granted - GOE??
Championship Ladies FS
- Thread starter EWalker
- Start date
I really hate the disruption argument many people make. Incorrect technique is an error and should be penalized. Even though mistakes can be estherically pleasing doesn't mean they shouldn't be penalized. Other sports with judged competitions all hand out penalties for incorrect technique, even though the errors may still be esthetically pleasing. In fact, I was watching Caroline skate once with a friend and my friend asked if her difficult variation (read mule kick) gained more points. Because she thought the mule kick looked good, should it not be granted - GOE??
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I though that Rachael and also Christina Gao put on an exhibition of straight backward landing edges. Skaters that get a lot of underrotatons called on them tend to land all their jumps a few degrees short.
In Mirai;s case, I could see the underroations myself, but she does tempt fate (and an unsympathetic tech specialist) on most of her jumps. If she could take advantage of the spring and height that she gets on her jumps to get those extra few degrees of rotation, then she wouldn't put her scores in the hands of the skater gods (and we wouldn't have anything to argue about
)
Internationally, Rachael does not get much of a GOE boost on her non-jump elements, but she has the levels. As for PCSs, it is amazing how a strong seven-triple performance with a triple-triple boosts the choreography and interpretation scores.
Both of our ladies have a good shot at top six in Vancouver.
In Mirai;s case, I could see the underroations myself, but she does tempt fate (and an unsympathetic tech specialist) on most of her jumps. If she could take advantage of the spring and height that she gets on her jumps to get those extra few degrees of rotation, then she wouldn't put her scores in the hands of the skater gods (and we wouldn't have anything to argue about
)Internationally, Rachael does not get much of a GOE boost on her non-jump elements, but she has the levels. As for PCSs, it is amazing how a strong seven-triple performance with a triple-triple boosts the choreography and interpretation scores.
Both of our ladies have a good shot at top six in Vancouver.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
In my opinion, this point would be stronger if the CoP did not penalize some errors harshly and let others go with a wink.
A Lutz off the wrong edge is not a Lutz. Why should it get any points at all?
If you fall on a jump, that jump was not successfully completed. It should get 0 points (and -1 for the fall).
But the CoP does not do that. Instead, it gives out graded penalties for the severity of the error. "e" or "!" or anywhere from -3 to -1 GOE on a flutz, for instance.
So I think the "degree to which it disrupts the program" is quite a valid way of going aboput determining which errors are worse than others.
Did she think it deserved extra points because it looked good, or did she think it deserved extra points because it was a difficult variation?
The CoP is full of opportunities to get extra points with difficult but ugly variations.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
That is fair just as I don't think the judging is always so accurate.
Earlier, it was mentioned that Mirai is pretty, etc........
I want to say that I think Miki is one of the prettiest skaters I have ever seen.
I prefer Akiko's skating over Miki this season and think Akiko beat Miki at the GPF just like she beat her at Japanese Natls.
I am not favoring Mirai because I think she is pretty but because I think her skating is beautiful and superior to Flatt.
I also can't help but love the great spirit and joy Mirai brings to the ice. It is natural as opposed to so many others showing us choreographed smiles and fake dramtic expressions.
I'm just happy that Mirai goes to the Olympics!!! I don't care she got first or second. She'd been there before, so what's the big deal. It's nice to have both girls go into the olympics as US champion, which would boost their confidence.
I watched the vedios. Apparently Rachael had a slower tentiative skate and looked laboured, while Mirai had speed, joy and attack all the way. I do prefer Mirai's performance. Hopefully both girls pay more attention to their weaknesses in the following three weeks and have their skate of life in the olympics!
I watched the vedios. Apparently Rachael had a slower tentiative skate and looked laboured, while Mirai had speed, joy and attack all the way. I do prefer Mirai's performance. Hopefully both girls pay more attention to their weaknesses in the following three weeks and have their skate of life in the olympics!
So Janetfan disagrees with the judges. Why does that make you so angry? It's a forum, that's allowed. It's not like her so-called "prejudices" are based on any dislike for the person that Rachael is. From what I gather, she is arguing that even IF Mirai underrotated 3 jumps, the rest of her skating was so superior to Rachael's that she should have won. It's a valid argument. I agree. Rachael may land difficult jumps. But she does nothing else very well that I can see. The judges disagreed and I can definitely see their argument. But why can't we disagree?
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Akiko and Mirai are for some reason given no slack by the judges. At SC, Akiko's SP layout was:
3lz-2t --> "e" call and -2 GOE
3f --> -2 GOE again (wasn't that bad)
2a -->
in the LP:
3lz-2t-2lo --> "e" and -1.80 GOE
2a-3t< --> popped the axel into a single, -.06 GOE
3lo --> popped
3f
3lz --> "e" and -3.0 GOE
3lo-2a seq
3s
So in the GPF Akiko changed her jump layout.
SP:
3f-2t --> no edge call, 0.40 GOE
3lo --> UR but not a jump you can get an edge call on
2a
LP:
3f-2t-2lo --> no edge call, no negative GOE
3t-2a seq --> no downgrade
3lo
3f
3lz --> "!" call, -1.80 GOE
3lo-2a seq
3s
Akiko won bronze at the GPF, so I believe what she did was smart. What Mirai should do if she wants to stop letting the judges screw her over.
current layout:
3lz-2t-2t --> "!" call, would be "e" internationally, but smart move changing the 2lo to a 2t after getting the 2lo UR at SC
2a-3t --> UR on the 3t, also got a UR call on the 3t at CoC
3f
3lz --> no edge call at nats but UR
3lo-2a seq --> smart move after her 3lo-2t was UR at SC (the 2t)
2a
3t --> UR here, not usually a problem
new layout she should use so the judges won't bring her down:
3f-2t-2t --> no "e" call
3t-2a seq --> no UR on 3t, can get good GOEs
3f
3lz --> if it's not in combination she has a better shot of not getting an "e" call
3lo-2a seq --> like she's already changed it, good move
2a
3t
If she does this, she will just eliminate many ways the judges can dock her. Ashley, Akiko, and that little girl Kanako all do sequences and I think it's a good idea now that 3-3s are being downgraded left and right. Also, why do two lutzes if after the edge call it will be worth less than a 3loop? She should do two flips and only one lutz. If she finds a way to get around what the judges are sometimes brutally calling her out on, they won't be able to do it and she should do better.
Sorry, but you have no understanding of CoP if you (and Janetfan) think it's allowable to UR 3 jumps and win anyway based on spins and spirals.
Look at the protocols and you can see where Mirai lost points by URing.
IF SHE HAD ROTATED ALL HER JUMPS, MIRAI WOULD HAVE WON.
But Mirai did not rotate all her jumps, and she lost about 15 points in the process, so she did not win.
Get over it.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2007
Gotta say. I don't really like rachels skating. She is so unrefined... Body lines and positions are a mess. I loved mirai out there, still has jump issues but body lines and positions are much nicer.
I do not feel Rachel should get the high pcs she does. Just my opinion
I do not feel Rachel should get the high pcs she does. Just my opinion
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2009
I definitely agree. Mirai skated with more joyful "abandon" and in that way was much more pleasurable to watch. Rachael may be consistent, but when Mirai nails it, she nails it hard.
Good luck to them both :agree:
I accept that Mirai under-rotated her jumps. (I guess Frank Carroll is questioning the call on two of the jumps but I'll go with the judges for now.) I accept that is the reason she did not win. However, I think Rachael should be penalized more harshly than she is for having awful spins and awful just about everything except for jumps. If CoP doesn't do that then I wish it would.
AND YOU CAN SHOUT AT ME IN ALL CAPS ALL YOU WANT but I think this discussion is interesting and I'll continue to have it no matter how many times you tell me to "get over it."
PCS scores are pretty much geared to the Skating Skills mark. When a skater is able to land 7 triples in a clean FS and achieve high levels (L4 and L3) in the non-jump elements, the SS mark is going to be pretty high, and her other component marks will be near or at the same level.
I just don't understand how Rachel gets L4 or L3 in spins and spirals. But if someone wants to explain it to me, great.
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2008
One thing that hurt Ashley alots was, her habit of 2 footings the jumps. She had great speed, high and rotation, but somehow she always seem to have the "lazy" free leg that always slightly touch down or brush the ice. These -GOE cost her the second Olympics spot, as well as the fall on the 3Lz. She should have done the 3lo and avoid the edge call.
Marai, she sould have score higher. Her PCS mark should be at least 2-3 points, higher than Flatt. The order of PCS mark should have been 1) Nagasu 63-64 range 2) Wagner 62+ and 3) Flatt 59-60. Her 2A+3T, second jump was underroated, but her 3Lz looks clean.
As for Flatt, she won it fair and square, and deserve her high TES score, but highest PCS mark on both short and long. come on!!
Marai, she sould have score higher. Her PCS mark should be at least 2-3 points, higher than Flatt. The order of PCS mark should have been 1) Nagasu 63-64 range 2) Wagner 62+ and 3) Flatt 59-60. Her 2A+3T, second jump was underroated, but her 3Lz looks clean.
As for Flatt, she won it fair and square, and deserve her high TES score, but highest PCS mark on both short and long. come on!!
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
Levels are all about how many revolutions a skater holds the spin and how many positions she can get into. A good chreographer/coach can insure that a skater gets those levels. Of course it is up the the skater to make sure they are holding the spin for long enough and getting into the positions with ease.
Racheal's spins are rather slow and some of her positions are not very pretty. This is addressed in the GOE or grade of execution. But in Racheal's (and most skaters cases) as long as the skater is not visibly struggling with the spin and they make it look reasonably easy, they will get a positve GOE. Plushenko has the same issues, but manages to get the levels and positive GOEs in many cases.
A skater like Mirai or Alissa gets the high levels and very good GOE's, but honestly the difference is not enough.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
I am over whatever it is you are imagining .
I have seen the LP several times and agree with Carroll. The urs were bogus.
I only see one not three. In fact, it is easy to see Mirai had the cleaner jumps.
It is only a matter of watching as opposed to be being a blind follower of Speedy's "expert" tech caller.
Earlier this season Jenny Kirk said the same thing, and I take her word over most posters at GS. Listening to Scott call the program he only mentioned one possible ur - the last jump. Scott also said Flatt had a messy jump too. So they each had a less than stellar jump. For the rest of the jumps Mirai's were better.
Despite the fact that their pcs were a virtual tie I found Mirai superior in most of the pcs. I did not think it was a tie or even close. Far from close actually.
This is just a major and total difference of opinion. I feel OK knowing many other fans here feel the same way.
Chuck is right, it is time to get over it. I will support both Ladies in Vancouver but will naturally enjoy Mirai's skating more.
I do hope they both can skate well and enjoy their Olympic experience. I suspect Mirai will have another one in 2014 but doubt that Flatt will so I particularly hopes she enjoys it.
I admire Rachael, think she is a terrific and accomplished young lady. I am just not a fan of her skating.
You have to understand that there are technical requirements not only for the jumps but for all the other elements as well. The technical team determines the level of difficulty for each non-jump element, and then the judges decide how well the element was performed by assigning Grade of Execution (GOE) ranging from -3 to +3.
Rachael's 3 spins were rated L4, L4 and L3 because she included all the positions and rotations required to reach those levels. Her spiral was rated L4 because she performed all the necessary positions required and held them for the length of time prescribed. She didn't get high GOE (mostly 1s and 0s) on the spins and spiral, but she didn't receive any negative GOE, either; unless there is a huge bobble or fallout, no penalty is called for. You may not like Rachael's spin and spiral positions compared to Mirai's, but then Mirai gets much higher GOE (mostly 1s and 2s and a few 3s) on those elements than Rachael does, so the scoring is quite equitable.
Rachael's footwork section was rated L3 (which is difficult to get) and in this area, she got higher GOE (mostly 2s) than Mirai (who also got L3 but mostly 1s in GOE) because Rachael had more turns and more continuous movement of the head and upper trunk than Mirai did.
Thanks for this too. I'll watch out for this next time - especially Rachel's footwork. I don't really enjoy Rachel's footwork that much but I guess from the perspective of CoP it is stronger than Mirai's. I respect CoP for trying to come up with an objective way to judge all of these elements. And I actually like that it dings for URs. and especially Flutzes. I just am torn about whether the sport is better off with it. I personally like what it's done to the footwork sequences. I know some say it's become too frenzied but I like it. I don't like what it's done to spirals. I really think that precious few skaters can do three positions nicely. Mostly it creates an ugly moment in usually otherwise good programs. The only way for that too change is if only skaters with bodies like Sasha's and Alissa's get into skating. But then figure skating wouldn't be figure skating. One of the things I've always liked about figure skating versus ballet and even versus gymnastics is that women with vastly different body types can excel at figure skating.
I think Rachel's program would be a lot better if she weren't forced to do spirals that make her look like she's hurting. And she's not the only one.
The fact is you are NOT a technical specialist. You are not a figure skating professional (most if not all of the techs are former skaters or coaches or both, and all have received extensive training as tech team members). You do not have access to the camera angles and replay capabilities that the technical team does. Your opinion as to whether the jumps were UR is irrelevant.
The fact that ISU tech teams for the past two years have found Mirai's programs full of URs lends further credence to the USFS tech team's assessment.
If US Nationals was an exhibition, then Mirai might well deserve a first placement. But US Nationals is a figure skating competition and there are technical rules and standards that must be met. Mirai is a lovely skater, but technically, she doesn't meet the standard when it comes to her jumps.
As for Frank Carroll's complaints about the URs, of course he will complain. He complained about Evan's score in the men's competition as well. But Carroll is hardly an unbiased observer. He wanted Mirai to regain her US Championship under his tutelage because that would be a feather in his cap. So of course he's going to gripe. That doesn't make him right.
You don't see Mirai saying she was robbed----because she knows she wasn't.
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