Isn't taping the judges prohibited?

[hurrah]

Who got superior scores on skating skills after falling on jumps? Look at Yuna's PCs scores and GOEs at SA compared to TEB and judge for yourself. If not for her short program scores, Yuna would not have passed Rachael when she made errors, so how are her GOEs making up for falling on two jumps? Besides, Yuna received 10 points in GOEs as early as 2007 when she was not such a heavy favorite and did not have as many transitions.

I agree though that all scores were a bit inflated at the Olympics but that was for skaters in all disciplines.

I think her short program score, particularly the GOE part, usually determines that she will win even if she makes two mistakes in the long program.

 

[yunasashafan]

I think her short program score, particularly the GOE part, usually determines that she will win even if she makes two mistakes in the long program.

Well that's a different story. Having a bad long does not negate the stellar short you did a day or two ago. Besides, that would be the case if she was competing in a weak field. When was Yuna's GOE score that much higher than a clean Mao or, recently, Joannie/Miki? At the Olympics, the difference between Mao and Yuna's GOE was 3 points, now tell me that was not deserved just by comparing the speed, equal height in combo jumps and flow out of the jumps.

Same applies to difference in PCs between clean performance in the top group.

 

[hurrah]

Well that's a different story. Having a bad long does not negate the stellar short you did a day or two ago. Besides, that would be the case if she was competing in a weak field. When was Yuna's PCs score that much higher than a clean Mao or, recently, Joannie/Miki?

GOE + PCS in her short that gave sllightly less than 5 point lead over Mao at Olympics, and given that she could comfortably expect to get +2 GOEs on every element she succeeded in and get high PCS even if she made a mistake or two because PCS doesn't suddenly fall, she knew she could win with two mistakes. And I don't think Mao had been getting such high PCS for few tournaments. Anyway, it was the GOE, not PCS.

I'm sorry, I really have to go now, but I enjoyed a rational discussion we had.

 

[yunasashafan]

GOE + PCS in her short that gave sllightly less than 5 point lead over Mao at Olympics, and given that she could comfortably expect to get +2 GOEs on every element she succeeded in and get high PCS even if she made a mistake or two because PCS doesn't suddenly fall, she knew she could win with two mistakes. And I don't think Mao had been getting such high PCS for few tournaments. Anyway, it was the GOE, not PCS.

I'm sorry, I really have to go now, but I enjoyed a rational discussion we had.

Yeah, I noticed that and amended my post accordingly. Still, the reason she gets those GOEs is that she is adding more to the jumps, so it's totally deserved, IMHO. Just like a double axel is worth so much more than a double Lutz, even though it has only half a revolution extra (same for 3A to 3Lz). It's a completely different approach to the jump. I wish Mao would bring back the transition-packed version of her program. Then we'd have a duel . Nobody else compares at this point, except maybe Joannie.

I enjoyed the discussion too

 

[Bennett]

Something like she was disappointed that she didn't get gold but is happy with getting the silver nevertheless? It was longer than that but that was the part that was highlighted in the news piece.

Mao is so super forward-looking, and even when people give her an opportunity to blame the situation, she never does.

Yeah, It was like she worked hard aiming for the Gold, so she feels disappointed, but is happy that she can bring Silver to Japan.

Then she says exactly the same thing in interveiws:
"As I come back to Japan, many people have said to me congratulations. Now I feel happy. It is good that I could get the medal. I am disappointed about my performance. Half happiness and half disappointment. I take this Silver as a step for the next stage and will work hard for Sochi. When I got the medal at the ceremony, I had a disappointing feeling because my goal was the Gold but I felt a little happy when I received Silver. (To get the Gold, I need) to become a consistent skater throughout the season. Right now I am doing my highest-level jump(s) that I am currently capable of, but I can increase the kinds of jumps and incorporate 3-3. I'd like to work hard on other jumps during the off-season after Worlds."
In Japanese
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20100302-00000525-sanspo-spo

 

[Ragil]

"Underrated"? She placed well considering her LP only had 4 triples completed. I don't understand the controversial "Mao deserved more" tone that seems to permeate this video at all. So much attention is being put on her completing two 3Axel jumps, and yes, while that is an amazing feat on her part, you can't overlook the elements that her program was missing, namely a 3Lutz, a3Salchow, and a 3toe. She only completed two 3Axels, one 3flip, and one 3loop, that's 4 triples, while the other top women (Kim, Rochette, Nagasu) completed 6 or 7 triples. What kind of sport is this when so many are only focused on one jump element? She didn't have a technically well-balanced LP. She and Japan should be very pleased with her silver medal.

I think the Japanese are VERY PLEASED INDEED, and we don't need to be told that we should, thank you. Isn't it rather patronizing to assume that we are in total denial of what happened at the olympics or something? Have you really seen enough Japanese coverage of the Olympics and understood what they said about the competition?
The Japanese public understand why she lost, and they know she did less triples, ironically, thanks to our media report that some people on this board so detest. I personally think Mao could have deserved more GOEs on her triple axels (she only received 0.8 and 0.2), on the other hand I wish she also throws in a salchow and a lutz because I think she does have the ability to do these jumps. Hopefully that shall come eventually.

 

[Bennett]

I think that the placement was pretty straightforward to casual viewers. The one who had two clean programs won the event, the one with two visible mistakes but had two 3As came in the second, and another who made two visible mistakes and had no 3As came in the third. What some people didn't get may be the score gap between the winner and the rest; some explanations about the rules would help. Another area that may need explanations is that those who seemed to have nearly clean performances didn't medal (Mirai and Miki).

Eta: Mao served as the flag bearer in the closing ceremony. Hers was one of the handful medals that the country garnered, with Silver the highest. I am surprised that Russian president is outraged for garnering only 15 medals with only three gold.

 

[Figure88]

I think the Japanese are VERY PLEASED INDEED, and we don't need to be told that we should, thank you. Isn't it rather patronizing to assume that we are in total denial of what happened at the olympics or something? Have you really seen enough Japanese coverage of the Olympics and understood what they said about the competition?
The Japanese public understand why she lost, and they know she did less triples, ironically, thanks to our media report that some people on this board so detest. I personally think Mao could have deserved more GOEs on her triple axels (she only received 0.8 and 0.2), on the other hand I wish she also throws in a salchow and a lutz because I think she does have the ability to do these jumps. Hopefully that shall come eventually.

Why should she receive more GOEs? She cheated her landing by 2 footing one of her triple axel combos that the judges didn't give deductions for.

 

[sunny0760]

Why should she receive more GOEs? She cheated her landing by 2 footing one of her triple axel combos that the judges didn't give deductions for.

I am not an expert so just my opinion. I think Yuna's scores were a little overrated like many other competitors(including men, pairs, ice dancers) and Mao's were overrated too, more than Yuna's. Especially her PCS is very high. Her 3As have improved but still not a good quality, therfore about 0 GoE.(Some argue otherwise but still...) And I think generally overrated scores are worse than generally underrated scores for in case, what would they do if there are more challenging, better performances? Will scores get higher and higher? World record in figure is a little absurd.
I don't understand why the judges should be generous about URs, PRs, wrong edges and something like that. Clean programs deserve high scores but even with a few mistakes, if the skater does every other elements with better quality and they are more difficult, (s)he should win over a skater with a clean program which consists of easier elements.

 

[sunny0760]

I think the Japanese are VERY PLEASED INDEED, and we don't need to be told that we should, thank you. Isn't it rather patronizing to assume that we are in total denial of what happened at the olympics or something? Have you really seen enough Japanese coverage of the Olympics and understood what they said about the competition?
The Japanese public understand why she lost, and they know she did less triples, ironically, thanks to our media report that some people on this board so detest.

Sorry but I don't agree. Sadly, I suspect there is a lot of negative sentiment in Japan right now and, at least, a few of TV shows are responsible for that.
It's not that I don't trust your genuine intention but that, to me, it seems that some TV commentators are misleading their audience.
For a note, I have not watched many Japanese TV coverages so I want to believe many others are much more objective, fair, constructive and entertaining. My hope is on NHK.

http://blog.naver.com/ebisu03/40102071504

Meh... I could hardly say there are very objective, classy, informative comments in this clip. Some of the translation.
- They never said about Mao's mistakes and did not say a positive word about Yuna's performance.
- (the female host, in a sarcastic, derogatory tone, after showing scores) "Thanks to GoE, Yuna's score turned to be what we have never seen before. However, there seem to be voices saying that Yuna's GoEs are too high."
- They showed points and placements of Mao, Miki and Suzuki and Nagasu.(her being Japanese may have been a joke. Anyway, the host added, "Only her nationality is different, though.") After that, only the man on the left(how kind!) briefly mentioned Miki and Suzuki once or twice.
- (the man on the right) "It(judging?)'s also about the individual tastes. In my opinion, Mao, with 3A, is superior as a skater but Yuna is better as an actor. I feel one is doing a competition, the other is doing an acting."
- (the second man from right) "About the points, as the persons concerned may already know what Japanese people are worrying about, (we) should strongly demand the verification on whether this scoring (system) is right or not. Can not be silent in order to clear of the way of scoring. There will be Worlds soon."
- (the male host) "Mao was elegant and Yuna was super. What remains inside the heart is elegant."

 

[Nadia01]

Meh... I could hardly say there are very objective, classy, informative comments in this clip. Some of the translation.
- They never said about Mao's mistakes and did not say a positive word about Yuna's performance.
- (the female host, in a sarcastic, derogatory tone, after showing scores) "Thanks to GoE, Yuna's score turned to be what we have never seen before. However, there seem to be voices saying that Yuna's GoEs are too high."
- They showed points and placements of Mao, Miki and Suzuki and Nagasu.(her being Japanese may have been a joke. Anyway, the host added, "Only her nationality is different, though.") After that, only the man on the left(how kind!) briefly mentioned Miki and Suzuki once or twice.
- (the man on the right) "It(judging?)'s also about the individual tastes. In my opinion, Mao, with 3A, is superior as a skater but Yuna is better as an actor. I feel one is doing a competition, the other is doing an acting."
- (the second man from right) "About the points, as the persons concerned may already know what Japanese people are worrying about, (we) should strongly demand the verification on whether this scoring (system) is right or not. Can not be silent in order to clear of the way of scoring. There will be Worlds soon."
- (the male host) "Mao was elegant and Yuna was super. What remains inside the heart is elegant."

What I find very funny and absurd about their attitude is that had Yuna been a Japanese skater competing with another Japanese skater (Mao), Mao's 3As would've been forgotten, overshadowed by Yuna's victory, and the media and everyone else would forget all about Mao and say "Hurray!" to Yuna.

I also love how the woman says "some voices". Who do they belong to? Some random casual viewers on the streets of Tokyo?

 

[Figure88]

Actually, what I find even more ironic is that the Japanese didn't make any big fuss about Takahashi losing Lysacek as Plushenko did. Didn't Takahashi attempt a quad and his fall was the only reason he placed third? But they seem to make such have a big deal about Mao losing to Yuna. Is it because Yuna is Korean?

 

[Figure88]

I am not an expert so just my opinion. I think Yuna's scores were a little overrated like many other competitors(including men, pairs, ice dancers) and Mao's were overrated too, more than Yuna's. Especially her PCS is very high. Her 3As have improved but still not a good quality, therfore about 0 GoE.(Some argue otherwise but still...) And I think generally overrated scores are worse than generally underrated scores for in case, what would they do if there are more challenging, better performances? Will scores get higher and higher? World record in figure is a little absurd.
I don't understand why the judges should be generous about URs, PRs, wrong edges and something like that. Clean programs deserve high scores but even with a few mistakes, if the skater does every other elements with better quality and they are more difficult, (s)he should win over a skater with a clean program which consists of easier elements.

Well, coming into the Olympics, Yuna's seasons best was about 20 points higher than her competitors, so the result at the Olympics is very consistent with how judges were scoring everyone all season in 3-4 competitions. Maybe, since her competitors were overscored in that they made mistakes and still end ended with a FS score of 130+, this pushed up Yuna's score even higher.

 

[Bennett]

For a note, I have not watched many Japanese TV coverages so I want to believe many others are much more objective, fair, constructive and entertaining. My hope is on NHK.

Yeah, NHK was fine.

In the selection of the day's competitions, they broadcasted performances of like top 5 or 6 finishers plus Suzuki Akiko. The commentators had a lot of genuine praises for each skater.

Then as a recap, they showed three Japanese ladies (IIRC, they were edited and cut) and ended with Yuna's entire performance to appreciate it again. I don't think they did so for Evan's in the men's event. I think that they did so primarily because it was a good performance for the audience to enjoy. Additionally, because they had already shown Mao in tears of disappointment and regret about her own performance, I think it was a sensitive, considerate way to end with Yuna's performance that went so well and with which the skater was happy, rather than repeating Mao's performance again that had rather a sad ending (Now that Mao is happy and cheerful, it would feel different. But on that night, she looked really heartbroken.)

Nadia01, there are numerous Yuna fans in Japan.

 

[Nadia01]

Yeah, NHK was fine.

In the selection of the day's competitions, they broadcasted performances of like top 5 or 6 finishers plus Suzuki Akiko. The commentators had a lot of genuine praises for each skater.

Then as a recap, they showed three Japanese ladies (IIRC, they were edited and cut) and ended with Yuna's entire performance to appreciate it again. I don't think they did so for Evan's in the men's event. I think that they did so primarily because it was a good performance for the audience to enjoy. Additionally, because they had already shown Mao in tears of disappointment and regret about her own performance, I think it was a sensitive, considerate way to end with Yuna's performance that went so well and with which the skater was happy, rather than repeating Mao's performance again that had rather a sad ending (Now that Mao is happy and cheerful, it would feel different. But on that night, she looked really heartbroken.)

Nadia01, there are numerous Yuna fans in Japan.

I know there are Yuna fans in Japan, and I know there are Japanese fans who love the sport, rather than just one particular skater.

But the media coverage has been ridiculous. I find NHK to be very fair in general, but other TV stations haven't been as fair. Implying that Yuna won only because ONE judge OUT OF NINE gave her high GOE, etc. is outrageous.

I've never hidden my preference -- I like Yuna the best among ladies, and I like Brian & Daisuke among men, and S/Z & P/T for pairs. (Don't care about ice dance)

But that doesn't mean if Yuna made mistakes and lost to clean Mao I would go around and make groundless allegations about how Mao cheated or how Mao bribed judges, etc. The entire thing is ridiculous and disrespectful.

Ultimately I watch skating not b/c I like a couple of skaters, but because I love the sport. I've been watching it since I was twelve. There have been times when I was heartbroken because my favorite skater didn't win (Michelle @ Nagano & SLC), but even though Tara & Sarah's skating style just ain't my thing, I would never claim that Tara and Sarah bought out the judging panel and so on b/c they did skate the best at the Oly.

It's difficult for me to see the amount of disrespect and rudeness heaped upon a skater who had two clean performances and won the competition fair and square over others who made visible mistakes. Even if the target were Patrick Chan, who I do not like, I wouldn't feel comfortable w/ people accusing him of bribery or corruption.

 

[qoo]

Actually, what I find even more ironic is that the Japanese didn't make any big fuss about Takahashi losing Lysacek as Plushenko did. Didn't Takahashi attempt a quad and his fall was the only reason he placed third? But they seem to make such have a big deal about Mao losing to Yuna. Is it because Yuna is Korean?

Because Yuna has been doing similar programs of the same jumping layout every year... but her scores just keep rising after each competitions this past couple of years. At the same time, Mao's second triple loop of her 3-3 was constantly downgraded for not such an apparent reason(most of them looked rotated to me) and she couldn't even attemp it this season. It's as if they tried hard to lower Mao's value.. and the exact opposite has been true for Yuna.

On the contrary, considering the fact that Daisuke being seriously injured, getting broze was such a great accomplishment!

 

[woshisunnya]

Because Yuna has been doing similar programs of the same jumping layout every year... but her scores just keep rising after each competitions this past couple of years. At the same time, Mao's second triple loop of her 3-3 was constantly downgraded for not such an apparent reason(most of them looked rotated to me) and she couldn't even attemp it this season. It's as if they tried hard to lower Mao's value.. and the exact opposite has been true for Yuna.

On the contrary, considering the fact that Daisuke being seriously injured, getting broze was such a great accomplishment!

Disagree.
I looked both Yuna & Mao's Lp this year and last year. Yuna's Lp is very different from last year not only for jump layout but also the whole program structure. The skating flow in this year's lp is very different from last year and the music as well. It seems very easy for Yuna to change to 3LZ3T and correct her edge on Flip to make sure it will not marked a "!" or "e" anymore. But i am very expressive by the changes in her programs this year. For Mao, She used last year's Lp as the Sp music which I think is a very good program (IMO the music is more suitable as a SP than the Lp), but the choreograp isn't change a lot. As the Lp, the music is same type, the program structure is similiar as last year as well. Actually, I am quite surprise that they choose two similar types of music as Sp and Lp this year. I don't know, it seems that Mao was only considerd about the 3A the past season and didn't think other things that much.

 

[Figure88]

Because Yuna has been doing similar programs of the same jumping layout every year... but her scores just keep rising after each competitions this past couple of years. At the same time, Mao's second triple loop of her 3-3 was constantly downgraded for not such an apparent reason(most of them looked rotated to me) and she couldn't even attemp it this season. It's as if they tried hard to lower Mao's value.. and the exact opposite has been true for Yuna.

On the contrary, considering the fact that Daisuke being seriously injured, getting broze was such a great accomplishment!

No, I think all the nastiness is actually because of Yuna's nationality. It obviously has a lot to do with the fact that she's Korean, as I've heard there are a lot of racist sentiments against Koreans in Japan. Like I said before, Evan is probably the most bashed skater on skating forums, yet I find it strange you don't hear one peep from Japanese skating fans about Evan when you see him place above Takahashi. However, the vitriol against Yuna is astounding. Frankly, it's embarrassing.Most of the nastiness against Yuna come from Mao or Japanese fans. Most non-Japanese skating fans who don't necessarily like Yuna are largely ambivalent about her and you don't them going out of their way to nasty to her. Whereas, when you see this kind of blind and erratic hatred against Yuna, you always find one assumption to be true: they are Mao fans.

 

[gourry]

Because Yuna has been doing similar programs of the same jumping layout every year... but her scores just keep rising after each competitions this past couple of years.

That is simply wrong.
She did new combination jump, 3Lz+3T, which is more difficult than her original 3F+3T. She jampacked her progam with transitions, she added difficult movement in and/or out of her jumps.
Maybe you are just not that interested in Yuna after all to notice such a thing.hwell:

 

[Bennett]

I know there are Yuna fans in Japan, and I know there are Japanese fans who love the sport, rather than just one particular skater.

But the media coverage has been ridiculous. I find NHK to be very fair in general, but other TV stations haven't been as fair. Implying that Yuna won only because ONE judge OUT OF NINE gave her high GOE, etc. is outrageous.

Could you please give us the sources of the TV programs that you think have implied corruption and let us know how generalizable that is among the Japanese TV programs?

I've never hidden my preference -- I like Yuna the best among ladies, and I like Brian & Daisuke among men, and S/Z & P/T for pairs. (Don't care about ice dance)

But that doesn't mean if Yuna made mistakes and lost to clean Mao I would go around and make groundless allegations about how Mao cheated or how Mao bribed judges, etc. The entire thing is ridiculous and disrespectful.

Ultimately I watch skating not b/c I like a couple of skaters, but because I love the sport. I've been watching it since I was twelve. There have been times when I was heartbroken because my favorite skater didn't win (Michelle @ Nagano & SLC), but even though Tara & Sarah's skating style just ain't my thing, I would never claim that Tara and Sarah bought out the judging panel and so on b/c they did skate the best at the Oly.

It's difficult for me to see the amount of disrespect and rudeness heaped upon a skater who had two clean performances and won the competition fair and square over others who made visible mistakes. Even if the target were Patrick Chan, who I do not like, I wouldn't feel comfortable w/ people accusing him of bribery or corruption.

I think that few ppl would disagree with the placement. It's the large score gap between the winner and the rest that some casual viewers and core fans were puzzled by (not just in Japan as you know). But not many would be so distrustful as to think of any judging corruption or bribery. Explanations by skating experts would help.

On the other hand, trust has to be earned and FS has had a history of judging scandals. I personally don't like sensationalism and believe that most of such "scandals" would be groundless. But anyone has the right to question the judging panel as an institution, if they wish to.

That said, I think that there are always sensational sport papers and sensational internet activities. But airing that Skater A may have had corruption or bribery seems far more than that unless there's strong evidence. So I am asking you which programs have ever really done so, or whether or not you are getting at individual internet users rather than TV programs in the latter half of your post.