You have given us a system in which 2+2=3. And when people say "but we have 4 apples in our hands" you are screaming "idiots, learn the rules".
I don't know who here is incapable of critical thinking.
2013 Worlds Men LP
- Thread starter BlackAxel
- Start date
I don't know who here is incapable of critical thinking.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
I would agree that is a case where the system was applied correctly.
When a fall happens, suddenly it becomes the most important thing about skating. It's seen as a far more grave and serious error than anything else and suddenly other things start to matter less than they normally would. It's completely irrational.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
I do see what you are saying and I agreed with your defense of Kostners scores in the short program. The thing about Chans performance though was it was not just one fall, it was 4 very disruptive falls or stumbles which were not only glaring technical flaws, but greatly took away and took all zest and energy out of the overall performance. Of course one or even two fall(s) that did not mar the performance could be easily forgiven and should be overcome by other strong things about the performance. You could tell he was rattled by the increasing number of mistakes and it affected the quality of his other elements and overall skating in the 2nd half of the performance too, yet not reflected at all in the scores.
I do respect your views and detailed analysis though and that you have done on all the disciplines here though, and do see where you are coming from.
^I have to agree with the above on both how much I respect Ziggy's analysis and how much I think it the problem with chan's program - or the scoring of it - was more than about a (as in one) fall. The fall on the lutz would not have 'ruined' the program for me - he had difficult entrance out of nowhere, went up, fell, and literally popped right up and continued with the complexity of his steps with speed. It was after that that I felt he lost the performance/execution points and where I felt the choreography was marred too.
ETA I meant to say interpretation, not choreography. Although, if i get the energy up to watch this again, I'll try to see if the falls etc also impacted the choreo
ETA I meant to say interpretation, not choreography. Although, if i get the energy up to watch this again, I'll try to see if the falls etc also impacted the choreo
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I am not so worried about that. Some of the judges thought that the spin was good enough to garner a few bullets, others didn't.
Dai is my favorite skater right now. Even with the flaws, I loved his long program. And he was my gold medalist last year. Someone once asked if there have been any programs "for the ages" since the adoption of COP. My answer is, yes there is one: Dai's Blues for Klook, every time he performed it, but especially at 2012 World's and 2012 WTT. And his Pagliacci, the way he skated it at Japan Nationals, comes close.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Again, what does that have to do with it? It is this] competition that is being judged, not how well or poorly we have seen Ten perform in the past.
What other men? Excuse me, but he has all the difficult jumps including two quads. He has been a victim of a strange judging in these Championships and last Worlds.
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2012
chanaholics need to sober up
Totally agree with the above. However, further to that, there is a serious issue for the sport and its reputation, and how it is scored, when two years running at the world finals, the same winning skater does two amazing quads and then fills up the rest of his program with a borderline ugly skate. Neither Skate Canada nor Mr. Chan should be bragging on this one. Chan does not have to work harder unfortunately. That is the message. Just do two perfect quads and the rest can be total garbage. I hate to criticize my favorite skater from my own city but what happened last night was not right. Quite frankly, it is shameful.
Totally agree with the above. However, further to that, there is a serious issue for the sport and its reputation, and how it is scored, when two years running at the world finals, the same winning skater does two amazing quads and then fills up the rest of his program with a borderline ugly skate. Neither Skate Canada nor Mr. Chan should be bragging on this one. Chan does not have to work harder unfortunately. That is the message. Just do two perfect quads and the rest can be total garbage. I hate to criticize my favorite skater from my own city but what happened last night was not right. Quite frankly, it is shameful.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
And I do agree their quality of skating is way superior but they were nullified by the numerous mistakes and subpar performances they had last night. Once again, it shows the failure of not having a right way to give the win to the skater whose "sum of its parts" was overall the best.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
OK, but you didn't answer my question.
As for base value -- anyone can turn in a jump card. Unfortunately, then you have to stand up on the jumps.
(Oh wait...)
And that is definitely a very valid point.
It's not the falls themselves that were an issue but rather how Chan has let them affect his performance. I have also felt that it was very subpar, his heart wasn't really in it and he wasn't fully committed to presenting the program. He did not skate to the top of his ability.
A case can definitely be made for Ten winning and personally I have also felt that he probably should have won (and I'd definitely prefer to see Ten on top of the podium).
However, I can also see how Chan's many exceptional qualities could have made up for his mistakes, giving him the gold.
It's great if there are opposing views and if people point out good and bad things about skaters' performances because it's not possible for one person to notice everything. I just feel frustrated by knee-jerk 'OMG he fell, he should lose, this is so stupid, judges are corrupt' reactions.
Ziggy is simply being as frustrating (I hesitate to add moronic) as the rulebook itself.
The best skater lost. I understand how Chan won, because I understand the rules - but how many examples beyond Lambiel's flawed 05 win, Oda's 4CC win with a massive break in CH and this splatfest by Chan must we endure before SOMEONE in the ISU implements more of a framework for components. To score more than 7 with multiple falls on any component is wrong. Essentially the judges are saying, I can see that you have great Skating skills, even though you fell. By that logic, they may aswell go to the practice sessions and mark the jumps based on the overall capabilities of the skaters.
I can't even begin to lament Joubert's placement, because again, I understand how it happened within the framework. However, all that tells me is that the framework is flawed.
I've loved D10 since Vancouver and whilst I feel sad that he didn't win, I am happy that the code at least allowed someone from an Obskure country with no placement or significant reputation reach the podium.
All codes and rules need to be tweaked in order to become solid and reliable, ISU need to learn from this. I feel like it would be a guarantee had Plushenko just won in Russia under the same circumstances. Unfortunately, it's Chan in Canada, so....actually, nothing will happen.
Overall, it's more concerning that so many men struggled. I suggest next year, that the men aim to peak at the Olympics by saving the quads and watering their content on the GP. most of these men peaked months ago, and way to many of them flopped to simply put it down to nerves.
Me three. I know Max has his shortfalls, but I like that he gives it his all every time and he continues to defy his critics. He just attacks it-- no hesitation what so ever.
Go, you Honey Badger!
- only one 3axel
- only three of his jumping passes are after the halfway mark (his rivals have five)
- repeats the flip even though he lips (why? why not repeat the lutz instead?)
- no 3loop
In this particular program:
- no three jump combination
- broken the Zayak rule
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
While I agree with much of your post that is not at all a good example, as that was a case that clearly nobody skated better even in the LP portion. Even with his 3 singled jumps he won by 24 points, so there was no question of anyone else deserving to win. Lambiel had by far the best qualifying round skate and short program, and in the long when he singled 3 jumps, a quadless Buttle fell twice, a quadless Evan won bronze with a so so skate, Joubert sucked, and just a really poor event that made even last nights look like a goldmine. Even under 6.0 Lambiel would have won that year easily.
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
OK, but you didn't answer my question.
As for base value -- anyone can turn in a jump card. Unfortunately, then you have to stand up on the jumps.
(Oh wait...)
What I meant was most of this forum posters hate Chan. They are willing to use anyone against him without foundation. The foundation was Ten has gotten sky rocket high SS which he did not deserve. So there was no room to give him even higher points unless he makes the 2F into 3F.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
Flutzing Around's Thoughts
He suggests that elements with falls receive 25% of their starting value and the fall deduction gets applied to P/E in 5% increments (1 fall, -0.5 from PE, 2 falls, -1.0 from PE, etc)
He suggests that elements with falls receive 25% of their starting value and the fall deduction gets applied to P/E in 5% increments (1 fall, -0.5 from PE, 2 falls, -1.0 from PE, etc)
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