Looking back on the careers of Yu Na Kim and Michelle Kwan

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Kim also would have almost definitely won Worlds in 2012 (with Mao skating poorly, and Kostner winning with 189 points) had she chosen to stay on, too, so if we're talking titles, that would be 3 World titles and 1 Olympic title (which should arguably be 2 Olympic titles).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It still doesnt matter when comparing Kwan to Kim. The point is the only way Kim could have any case to put her career next to Kwan's would be the 2nd OGM and she didnt attain it. With 2 world titles to 5, only 1 Olympic gold, only 4 years of consistent skating, and nowhere near the consistency, longevity, dominance, or artistic impact of Kwan, and not even trying 7 triples per program, without the 2nd OGM she simply cant compare.

For me the question is whether Michelle would trade her record for Yuna's, and I think that she would. I highly doubt Michelle would have stayed on past 1998 had she won, as every skater since 1998 has retired within a year of winning. The OGM was obviously very important to her, as she put so much pressure on herself to win in 2002 and did not skate with the same freedom that she exhibited in her Nationals and Worlds wins. She punished her body from 2004-2006 on the quest to win it and was not able to compete.

Conversely, I think Yuna would rather keep an OGM and 2 World titles than have 5 World titles. As far as endorsements go, World Champion doesn't have the same ring as Olympic champion.

I do agree with you that Michelle had stiffer competition. Irina was formidable, and even Sokolova could have won had Michelle faltered.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Kim also would have almost definitely won Worlds in 2012 (with Mao skating poorly, and Kostner winning with 189 points) had she chosen to stay on, too, so if we're talking titles, that would be 3 World titles and 1 Olympic title (which should arguably be 2 Olympic titles).

Since Kim didn't compete in 2012 I don't think you can give her the win. Had she not competed in 2010 or 2011 we would probably say she would have won those as well, and we saw what happened. It's very hard to maintain that level over a long period.

 

[pointyourtoe]

You're always contradicting yourself about Kwan and Kim (individually) depending upon the thread. It's so weird.

 

[bara1968]

@PTfan

What? You know that Yuna's senior debut was 2006-2007 season, AFTER kwan retired. Huh

If Yuna were American- she would be instantly propped up as the next kween and have all the support from USFS and winning all the nationals from 2006 till she retires, considering how (comparatively) poor US ladies did for last two quads.

 

[pointyourtoe]

 

[Components]

Lipinski is a great skater. Not Kwan, Asada, Lynn, Ito level great or even Kim, Slutskaya level but still great. She certainly does not devalue the OGM.

Hughes and Sotnikova are the two weakest in history but they are the exception rather than the rule of what the OGM is. Hughes lucked out to have the competition of her life on a night the favorites all fell apart. Sotnikova was Putined to the gold, and also benefited from the lackluster plod that the undedicated Kim allowed her skating to become, unlike the always fully commited Kwan who never let the standard of her skating slip even with a badly damaged hip.

Anyway I am fine with those who want to say the OGM is nothing. That just makes the gap between Kwan and Kim even more gigantic in Kwan's favor then.

You people have a warped sense of history.

Yamaguchi won her OGM with tiny jumps, 2 Flutz, a fall, and a double Salchow. Baium in '94 I don't think we need to go over that one. What the judges have tended to do is give the OGM to the best atheletes even if not the best artists these days - as should be the case. Athletics should trump artistry at the Olympics. Sotnikova is not a bad skater, so the rest is moot AFAIC.

The only thing Sotnikova and Hughes have in common is that they beat skaters with raucous, rabid, vapid, social media-savvy fan bases. Both of them deserved their titles.

I think some moderating is in order because it's getting a bit exhausting to have you people drag her into every discussion while using other subjects as an alibi to having this discussion over and over again.

 

[pointyourtoe]

You people have a warped sense of history.

The only thing Sotnikova and Hughes have in common is that they beat skaters with raucous, rabid, vapid, social media-savvy fan bases. Both of them deserved their titles.

I think some moderating is in order because it's getting a bit exhausting to have you people drag her into every discussion while using other subjects as an alibi to having this discussion over and over again.

What kills me is that you think he's being sincere. Well..I think he is about Sotnikova, but he flip flops on Kwan and Kim all the time

 

[Components]

What kills me is that you think he's being sincere. Well..I think he is about Sotnikova, but he flip flops on Kwan and Kim all the time

Ubers are always sincere when they bash other skaters. I don't really care about that, other than the underhanded attempt to start another bash thread with the façade of a Kim/Kwan comparison...

But to call Sotnikova and Hughes performances/wins the weakest in history... He or she must be like 16 years old to seriously believe that lie.

I do think Sotnikova's FS especially really threw some people for a loop. I don't think she has ever put down a skate like that in competition, in her life.

 

[bara1968]

Hahaha. Since your so called assumption is much bigger "IF" than merely assuming Yuna with different nationality, let me give one of my 'if's.

If Yuna were American- most definitely she would not have to practice on the crappy ice rink in the amusement park and that would have greatly reduced her chance of injury. That will more than certainly help her maintaining her loop jump, which would simply make her invincible.

Even without loop, her performance from 2009WC, 2010Oly, 2013WC, 2014 Oly deserve to win whatever title there had been, let alone US nationals. Even Kwan's best ever performance would have tough time to beat Yuna's 2010 Oly performance, and frankly, I don't think she can beat it, since Yuna will most definitely win SP by much harder jump layout.

So with my big IF- yuna maintain loop jump- then how on earth she would not win A title even within competing against Kwan? Losing confidence... For what?

By the way, don't get me wrong. I hate to make comparisons and IFs. And I respect and adore both skaters very much. I am simply responding to PTfan's thread since I feel that she/he is unnecessarily belittling Yuna too much with her/his weird and torted assumptions.

 

[Components]

Hahaha. Since your so called assumption is much bigger "IF" than merely assuming Yuna with different nationality, let me give one of my 'if's.

If Yuna were American- most definitely she would not have to practice on the crappy ice rink in the amusement park and that would have greatly reduced her chance of injury. That will more than certainly help her maintaining her loop jump, which would simply make her invincible.

Even without loop, her performance from 2009WC, 2010Oly, 2013WC, 2014 Oly deserve to win whatever title there had been, let alone US nationals. Even Kwan's best ever performance would have tough time to beat Yuna's 2010 Oly performance, and frankly, I don't think she can beat it, since Yuna will most definitely win SP by much harder jump layout.

So with my big IF- yuna maintain loop jump- then how on earth she would not win A title even within competing against Kwan? Losing confidence... For what?

By the way, don't get me wrong. I hate to make comparisons and IFs. And I respect and adore both skaters very much. I am simply responding to PTfan's thread since I feel that she/he is unnecessarily belittling Yuna too much with her/his weird and torted assumptions.

Kwan had no issues beating Lipinski's much harder jump layout at the 98 Olympics in the SP.

3Lz2T - 3T - 2A vs 3Lz2Lo - 3F - 2A

Kwan likely would have been getting Kostner-level PCS if a similar scoring system was used back then, if her Presentation scores were any indication.

Even in 2002, Kwan somehow beat Slutskaya's technical clinic with an easier jump layout, much weaker spins, and a weak/forward/scratchy landing on her solo triple. Before that competition it was over a year since Kwan beat Slute in a SP in a major competition.

Also, Yuna's 3Lo was *never* consistent. Injuries may have affected it, but it was never a consistent jump so it isn't "just cause of the injury" that she didn't do the jump. Skaters like Kwan (later in her career) and Lipinski were carry worse injuries and they still managed to attempt all the triple jumps. I don't buy the "injury" excuse, especially looking back at her history with the Loop jump. Anyone who can do what she did in Vancouver, technically, could have done a triple loop assuming the jump was even decently reliable for them...

 

[bara1968]

Yeah, but Yuna's would be

3Z3T, 3F, ina into 2A, harder than Tara's and you cannot ignore the quality of her jumps. And performance was excellent too.

And Yuna's LP PCS has been almost always higher than Caro K's. In SP she got lower PCS than Caro K only twice recently and the difference was rather negligible. Also Yuna is better jumper with respect to the quality compared to Slutskaya.

For Yuna's loop, I am not saying that it would be super consistent if she were not heavily injured back in 2006-2008 seasons. I am simply saying that it would have been lot stabilized and she might continue to do this jump barring injuries. Yes, that's big IF, but PTfan is making her/his argument under same IF anyway.

Even without 3lp, based on her Oly performances and World winning performances, I would assume that Yuna will have an edge on technical scores while Kwan might top the artistic mark (in 6.0 system) but the difference would be negligible.

So my point is, it is wrong to 'easily' assume that Yuna would not win a single title against Kwan, as PTfan argues.

 

[pointyourtoe]

Yeah 2009WC with only 5 triples and a discounted spin was so unbeatable, even by 7 triple and stunning artistry Kwan at her best. Her slow and boring Olympic LP which couldnt even beat a skater like Adelina freaking Sotnikova would be untouchable by Kwan at her best as well, LOL! 2010 Olympics and 2013 worlds are the only times she probably ever skated well enough Kwan "might" have a hard time beating her under any scoring system. 2 times in her whole career she skated about as well as Kwan did about 30 times.

This dude is no Kwan fan. He enjoys watching Kwan being torn to shreds, I'm sure.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Under 6.0 at Kwan's peak, you needed 7 triples to win. I don't think Yuna 2010 Oly would beat 2001 Worlds Kwan under 6.0. However, I think if they were competing at the same time (a) Yuna would be doing the 3Lo because so many ladies were doing 7 triples and (b) Michelle probably would have been attempting the 3Z-3T because she would have to.

 

[Ophelia]

Since Kim didn't compete in 2012 I don't think you can give her the win. Had she not competed in 2010 or 2011 we would probably say she would have won those as well, and we saw what happened. It's very hard to maintain that level over a long period.

Kim showed up at WC 2010 with a I-don't-care attitude, bombed the SP, and still managed to win silver.

She showed up at WC 2011 having not competed in ANY events prior, gave a lackluster performance, and still managed to win silver (some ppl think she still deserved gold). So I do think that Kim out of all skaters is able to maintain peak level for a long time.

 

[pamela]

Was it in the Sydney Summer Games where the apparatus was made too high for the vault, and everyone fell? This error was figured out during the competition, and I think some gymnasts at least got to make another attempt. (Please correct me if I've misremembered.)

PEOPLE COULD HAVE BEEN KILLED

The vault height was set too low, like 90% of the gymnast fell (falling in gymnastics is the end of the story, no medal) or had troubles with it scoring lower than they normally do.
But yeah, the judges found out about it when 75% of the competition was done and they asked gymnasts if they wanted to go again, but some declined because it was no point to perform again if they were mentally disturbed by the incident. The IOC/FIG apologyzed but the damage was done.
IOC wont re schedule events, no matter how hard they screw up, unless its because a climatic reason. If it didnt happen when it was clearly a problem during the event, it wont happen because the schedules are too tight (for doping and morning practices if I read correctly)

 

[Michelle's Spiral]

I don't think Sotnikova gave an Olympic performance that was unworthy of an Olympic gold medalist. I just think Kim and Kostner gave more OGM worthy performances.

As for Hughes and Lipinski, they deserved their OGMs. Lipinski thoroughly outjumped Kwan with two 3-3 combos. Hughes - even with URs - gave the cleanest, most OGM-worthy performance on the night where erroneous performances from Slutskaya and Kwan would not have been OGM-worthy. Similarly, Arakawa saved 2006 from having an unworthy OGM... I mean, Cohen being the OGM would have been ridiculous.

I agree with most of this analysis. But both Lipniski and Kwan actually completed 7 triples. And while Michelle's jump plan was less difficult, I think she also executed it better (fully rotated jumps, correct edges, etc). But I also think that Lipinski's final 3-3, plus her youth and exuberance, won the OGM for her.

 

[Ophelia]

That just shows the weak field of her era unlike the stunningly deep field of Michelle Kwan. By your own admission she was sleepwalking and at like 45% and still won silver both times (and probably wuzrobbed of gold in 2011 as you said). Kwan could have never gotten away with that.

I don't think Kwan (or any other female skater) could've taken off entire seasons and still medalled.

If you consider 2010 and 2011 weak, then what about WC 2013?

 

[Mathman]

For me the question is whether Michelle would trade her record for Yuna's, and I think that she would...
Conversely, I think Yuna would rather keep an OGM and 2 World titles than have 5 World titles...

That is an interesting question. I think as time passes people become more and more satisfied to take ownership of their accomplishments and feel less and less envy of what others have achieved. Michelle's five world championships puts her in an exclusive club of four, joining Herma Szabo, Sonja Henie (10), and Carol Heiss. This feat was last accomplished in 1960. Meanwhile, there is automatically an Olympic gold medalist every four years no matter what, 21 in all so far.

Nor would Yuna Kim trade her career for anybody's. If you like statistics (who doesn't? ), only Tenley Albright, Carol Heiss, and Sjoukje Dijkstra have an Olympic gold and an Olympic silver medal, along with Witt's two golds and Henie's three.

As for Tara Lipinski and Sarah Hughes, they skated their best when the stakes were highest. I don't think they would trade places with anyone either.

 

[DaveT]

:disapp: I can't imagine how you must live your life, to put down other peoples achievement like it means absolutely nothing (however it was earned) Regardless of what happens, these people work their asses off their entire lives for that one moment, they didn't just skip onto the ice and win that medal. They don't need bitter people like you degrading all their efforts because your not happy with some results. You can criticize the system but the way your belittling these athletes is disgusting. And by your logic, ANY medal is worthless because its not always the "best" or the most "elite" skaters who win, sometimes there is that underdog who comes and takes that opportunity and manages to grab that medal while the "best" skater fails and loses that medal. It doesn't make the win any less important.

Now if we're talking about unfair judging that's another matter but it still doesn't make the medal worthless because the winner still sacrificed a lot and worked their whole lives for it.

I'm not bitter about a thing. I thought the point of this thread was about Yuna vs. Kwan now that Yuna didn't win a second OGM. I say what does an OGM really have to do with someone's place in history? It's not the end all, be all of someone's mark on the sport. And someone else commented about people being worthy in reply as well. I didn't say anyone was unworthy, I just listed examples of some with OGMs who we'll never have discussions about being the greatest ever and we won't.