South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

[Meoima]

I am sure there are more people all around the world doubting the result in Sochi. I would say Canada, some US media, France, Germany, Italy, Australia, Korea, Japan, England, China, and I am sure there are more. In terms of Adelina getting warm support in Japan, I think they just don't want Adelina to be sad and despaired, but they all know the truth. They are not stupid to bash other skaters who come to their country. To be honest, Japanese are glad that Adelina hindered Kim from getting 2 OGM. And The most popular on Japanese articles from mass media when Adelina won was "Adelina wasn't as good as mao zzang" or something like that. And Adelina even said that even some Russians are being cruel to her on twitter or instagram. And I am not saying those immature Koreans are good. They should get blamed for writing such a disrespectful comments. I agree. But Adelina too is going to far. Had she been just quite about the result, no one would blame her.

Where is the source? Can you prove that Japanese people were glad about ladies event at Sochi? The event in which Mao fell tediously in her SP and lost the chance on podium?:sarcasm:

I know you are a biased fan of Yuna but at least show people that you have enough common sense. You are saying like Japanese people were so glad Kim lost the gold while in fact they were glad that Plushy withdrew from the men event. Because they think with the judging in Sochi, there would be no way Hanyu would get the gold if Plushy had stayed in the field.

Don't you think you have gone too far to provoke more Japan vs Korea? Seriously, what the problem with all of you guys? Some of Kim fans say Japanese are glad that Kim lost. Some of Mao's fan say Koreans are glad that Mao were tedious in the SP. I get it, so you all have tedious sportsmanship. Thanks for the information. :sarcasm:

Do you know the Japan Times was one of the first to call out the judging in Sochi? Do you know even some Japanese reporters said they thought Yuna deserve the gold? And that is nothing new. I have read about those things even though I am not Japanese.

 

[cuon_alpinus]

Where is the source? I know you are a biased fan of Yuna but at least show people that you have enough common sense. Don't you think you have gone too far to provoke more Japan vs Korea? Do you know the Japan Times is one of the first to call out the judging in Sochi?

I know. I am talking about people online who comments under the news article.

 

[Meoima]

I know. I am talking about people online who comments under the news article.

You shouldn't care about the trolls who are not actual fans of figure skating, or even sport. You see some comments on the internet and you assume that all of Japanese people think so. Should I say I see some unfair comments about Mao from Korean people, so I have the rights to assume that all of Korean people think so?

Should I show you all the tedious comments by some Koreans fellows under post about top 3 ladies at Worlds 2014 on facebook? They bashed Mao even though Kim did not even attend that competition. Oh, they even bashed Hanyu and Machida even though they are males (obviously not even competed against Yuna due to their gender, ).

If you are paying attention to all the trolls, then Youtube is your heaven. Don't go here spreading provoking comments that would turn the thread even more ugly.

 

[[email protected]]

There were 170 articles on the issue in Russia today. I have no idea but could guess that outside Russia and Korea there were very few mentions. This is about how important it is in Canada, US, France, etc. There is no news value any longer. That's what Adelina says and I am with her on that. I am also with some others including Adelina's critic pangtongfan saying that Yuna could have gone a somewhat longer way, say, do the same LP as Mao in terms of difficulty. Then she would have been so dominant that it would be simply impossible to do any harm to her OGM. But what we have now is the argument that her advantage in components was way bigger than her deficit in tech difficulty. I do not say it's wrong. But it's already a shaky ground. The TRUE undisputable champion is the one who is stronger both in tech and components. Otherwise we have the eternal argument that FS is a subjective sport.

Of these 170 articles some were about Lakernik's interview. Some of his replies: "Alla Shekhovtseva is a renown judge. That's her profession. Yes, she is the wife of Piseev. What would you suggest, quit the job or divorce? The code of ethics says that one just cannot judge one's relatives." "There were cases that among judges were heads of national federations of Sweden and Austria". "South Korea is a specific country. Fans there do not simply love their skaters - they are ready to engage in hand-to-hand fighting for them. And they are not just skattered individuals - they have big and very warlike clubs who, I suppose, could put strong pressure on their federation. The state could also ask: "we planned gold from Yuna Kim - where is it?" Then the federation has to react. Well, it's just my assumption".

 

[jaylee]

But what we have now is the argument that her advantage in components was way bigger than her deficit in tech difficulty. I do not say it's wrong. But it's already a shaky ground. The TRUE undisputable champion is the one who is stronger both in tech and components. Otherwise we have the eternal argument that FS is a subjective sport.

Are you not award of the dispute over Yuna Kim's TES being too low and Adelina's TES being too high? Adelina's 3Lz/3T should have received an edge call and the 3T was underrotated, and should've received corresponding lower GOE. Her step sequence in both the SP and the FS should've been a level 3 instead of a level 4. Yuna Kim's FS footwork should've been a level 4.

I think you can overlook one of these calls, but not all of them, which collectively contributed to the gap in TES that made up the margin of victory by Adelina. So you cannot point to Adelina's higher TES as justification for her win when the calls that made the TES were wrong. The absent flutz call alone is what bothers me the most--pure shenanigans on part of the tech panel, which includes Mr. Lakernik. Adelina Sotnikova does not have a true lutz, she never has, and ten, twenty years from now, when people look back at the 2014 Olympics, that will still be a flutz that should have been called by the tech panel but wasn't.

 

[[email protected]]

Are you not award of the dispute over Yuna Kim's TES being too low and Adelina's TES being too high? Adelina's 3Lz/3T should have received an edge call and the 3T was underrotated, and should've received corresponding lower GOE. Her step sequence in both the SP and the FS should've been a level 3 instead of a level 4. Yuna Kim's FS footwork should've been a level 4.

I think you can overlook one of these calls, but not all of them, which collectively contributed to the gap in TES that made up the margin of victory by Adelina. So you cannot point to Adelina's higher TES as justification for her win when the calls that made the TES were wrong. The absent flutz call alone is what bothers me the most--pure shenanigans on part of the tech panel, which includes Mr. Lakernik. Adelina Sotnikova does not have a true lutz, she never has, and ten, twenty years from now, when people look back at the 2014 Olympics, that will still be a flutz that should have been called by the tech panel but wasn't.

What you are saying is your opinion. I am not a tech specialist to compare the footwoork. There were people who tried to do that and were in disagreement. As a plain spectator I saw that Adelina's jumps were higher and spins were better. I also saw that overall Yuna skated better - Adelina's style is too rough. But again these are opinions. What is set in stone is the base tech value - this is the objective fact and not an opinion. And Adelina's base value was lower than Mao's but higher than Yuna's. That's the only "if" I am referring to. If only had Yuna had the same base value or higher and had been ripped off her OGM I would have been the first to shout "Injustice!" out loud although I am russian and have natural emotions toward russian skaters.

 

[Anna K.]

Although soccer and fs is very much different, I am surely interested in soccer and opened to talk about it. I guess the biggest issue was korea vs spain. If I were spanish, I would almost kill that judge at the sideline. It wasn't clearly out nor it was offside. The goal should have been counted. Also on the italian vs korea, I would blame both countries as well as the main referee. The game as a whole was brutal and violent. Both countries were kept fouling each other as referee started overlook for both countries. So to sum it up, I agree that instant video replay should be registered.

moreover, there were boxing scandal in 1988 seoul olympic as you guys might have heard. The fix was in. but korean boxer admitted himself of the unfair judging. Allegedly, Park himself apologized to Jones afterward. One judge shortly thereafter admitted the decision was a mistake, and all three judges voting against Jones were eventually suspended. Jones was awarded the Val Barker trophy, as the best stylistic boxer of the 1988 games

So I think this scandal should also be investigated and suspend those judges. Moreover, the rule should also be reformed. And hopefully award kim with gold medal like they did in 2002 salt lake.

Sounds like the things have been only getting worse since 1988

It’s funny because boxing and soccer are infamous as the most cheatable and scandalous sports but figure skating beats them both at the end. Here, we have officials who even don’t bother to pretend that they care about fair game.
Contrary from you, I hope there will be no another silver-golden medal though. The problem with reconciliation medal awarding is that this solution is supposed to make people happy with the system; which means that no changes will be made. However, I don’t blame you for hoping for this. The 2018 OWG are on the way and reconciling the people with the organization would help the atmosphere even if it wouldn’t help the development of FS as one particular sport.

 

[sk8in]

Fans there do not simply love their skaters - they are ready to engage in hand-to-hand fighting for them. And they are not just skattered individuals - they have big and very warlike clubs who, I suppose, could put strong pressure on their federation. The state could also ask: "we planned gold from Yuna Kim - where is it?" Then the federation has to react. Well, it's just my assumption".

Well that's rich. Because you know, its not like Russia has actual warlike clubs who literally beat people in the streets *cough Cossaks cough.*,

And yes, Alla should quit her job. This isn't exactly a radical concept. There are many fields where you can get in trouble for having a spouse with a conflict of interest like that. It doesn't mean that Alla is the one source of evil in judging, but obviously it is an issue.

And yes, Mao's planned elements were worth more than Adelina's and yet her technical score was lower. The problem is judges skewing GOEs and components based on skating order/country/etc.

 

[Anna K.]

[Russia’s withdrawal would] degrade female and pair skating dramatically.
Russia now is the only country which has 3 spots in all the 4 disciplines at JrWorlds, also it has 3 spots in 3 disciplines and 2 spots in one (Men) at Worlds.

I’d prefer to say that Russia’s withdrawal would be very sad because this country has many passionate fans and equally passionate skating specialists but it wouldn’t degrade the skating quality dramatically. I don’t think that the overall level of 4C is lower than that of EC just because Russia doesn’t compete. The fact that Russia is so largely represented is rather a fair result of something else: Russia is the only (as far as I know; actually, I’m not sure about China – I know they have state funded programs but I don’t know if FS is still included) country where there is a state-funded FS development program that has been run for decades. In other countries, it mainly depends on dedicated parents.

Her case is that her internet haters are concentrated in Korea. And she supported this case by saying this: "As for Japan, people are very warm, every time I go to the rink, every meeting with the fans is like a holiday. - And no one asks questions? - Not a single one. People here have no idea...."

So, it could be true that the issue still exists only in one specific country and among a limited number of goldenskate.com members.

The only breakthrough solution in terms of objectivity could be the introduction of a sort of "computer judges". In tennis "eagle eye" seems to work fine. But I guess we are still years before it might become a reality. In principle, it is not impossible: computer won over Kasparov in chess more that 10 years ago. But here lies the problem: as soon as it became clear that a computer can be better than a man the global interest to the chess started to wane. I have no idea who is currently the champion. So when it becomes possible and should the assessment be done by a computer it may kill the majic of figure skating.

You’re underrating the issue and basically, you underrate America. There is a link to a NYT article I’ve already posted here and there
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/06/s...ing-figure-skating-gets-mixed-marks.html?_r=0
This article was written right before Sochi OG kicked off as a preview.
You can easily see that it discusses exactly the same issues that got publicity after the infamous Ladies event which but actualized the problems that had been painful for a long time – since 2002 I’m afraid.

Then, for the most interesting part: I don’t think that the interest towards chess has been killed off. Like any individual sport, it depends on a personality. Kasparov was a generally very popular person and it was also thanks to publicity stunts like his “duels” with a computer program he himself helped to develop. After him, there hasn’t been a similar personality for a while but Magnuss Carlsen is definitely making waves recently and I think the best is yet to come. He’s very young after all.
The technology involvement might give figure skating the coveted media attention (if you reside in Russia, you probably can’t imagine that figure skating might need more publicity than it already has but it’s not the same elsewhere in the world). Of course, people basically want to see a “duel” with technology and they want the human to win but such an event could be a great help to the sport if to use this publicity wisely.

 

[jaylee]

What you are saying is your opinion. I am not a tech specialist to compare the footwoork. There were people who tried to do that and were in disagreement. As a plain spectator I saw that Adelina's jumps were higher and spins were better. I also saw that overall Yuna skated better - Adelina's style is too rough. But again these are opinions. What is set in stone is the base tech value - this is the objective fact and not an opinion. And Adelina's base value was lower than Mao's but higher than Yuna's. That's the only "if" I am referring to. If only had Yuna had the same base value or higher and had been ripped off her OGM I would have been the first to shout "Injustice!" out loud although I am russian and have natural emotions toward russian skaters.

No, the base tech value is not set in stone. Whether or not your jump is URed or not affects the base value. Whether or not your footwork sequence is a level 3 or a level 4 affects base value. Hence why certain controversial calls by the technical panel resulted in Adelina's base value being higher than Yuna's.

GOE does matter because the penalty for a flutz is reflected in GOE, not in base value. Other penalties for errors (like Adelina's two-footed landing on her 3F/2T/2Lo) are reflected in GOE, not base value. A skater who rotates and falls on every jump has the same base value as a skater who has the same layout and rotates and lands every jump. So you can't use base value as the only factor in measuring difficulty. Especially in this case where the technical panel made calls affecting base value that were clearly wrong--it's not a matter of opinion that Adelina flutzes, or that she URed her 3T--she has a history of doing that.

 

[pangtongfan]

Well that's rich. Because you know, its not like Russia has actual warlike clubs who literally beat people in the streets *cough Cossaks cough.*,

And yes, Alla should quit her job. This isn't exactly a radical concept. There are many fields where you can get in trouble for having a spouse with a conflict of interest like that. It doesn't mean that Alla is the one source of evil in judging, but obviously it is an issue.

And yes, Mao's planned elements were worth more than Adelina's and yet her technical score was lower. The problem is judges skewing GOEs and components based on skating order/country/etc.

Forget conflict of interest, Alla is flat out a corrupt and horrific judge who doesnt know squat all about skating. Always has been. She never should have been an ISU judge to begin with, let alone holding a post for 20+ years and being assigned to countless events. She is a disgrace to the sport and it is only fitting one of its worst scandals ever (Sotnikova Sochi Skategate) has her fingerprints all over it. A fitting final legacy to her already sordid legacy in the sport she has only long helped ruin.

Wasnt she ever the judge who gave Fadeev a 5.9 for technical merit in one of her first ever events as a judge at the 86 worlds. He fell twice and stepped out/put hands down on 3 other jumps. No matter he is Russian (then Soviet) so 5.9 technical is appropriate. Skating is irrelevant, it never has been for Alla, not that she even knows the first thing about skating so could even try and judge it even if she tried.

 

[Vanshilar]

The only breakthrough solution in terms of objectivity could be the introduction of a sort of "computer judges". In tennis "eagle eye" seems to work fine. But I guess we are still years before it might become a reality. In principle, it is not impossible: computer won over Kasparov in chess more that 10 years ago. But here lies the problem: as soon as it became clear that a computer can be better than a man the global interest to the chess started to wane. I have no idea who is currently the champion. So when it becomes possible and should the assessment be done by a computer it may kill the majic of figure skating.

I think Kasparov vs computer is confusing how the technology is used. In chess, the computer was used a competitor not as an arbiter of the rules. The proper analogy to Kasparov in figure skating would be if somebody built a robot that could figure skate and do spins, jumps, etc. and entered that robot into the same competitions. Not that this is unprecedented; for example, here's a video of a robot doing a quadruple backflip off of a high bar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M0jhAuAuJI

Having computers judge some of figure skating's components would be more akin to a chess program that automatically determines where you're allowed to move your bishop, or whether or not it's a checkmate, etc. It wouldn't handle things like how artistic a program is, but some of the components like by how much a jump is under-rotated are clearly defined (or at least, should be) and can, in principle, be measured. Right now they're simply eyeballed which makes the process more subjective and hence, corruptible. Not to mention, the system as it's currently set up seems to specifically hinder accountability (anonymous judging, lack of process to rectify bad judging calls, etc.) which does not inspire confidence in its results. If technology is used to measure the more easily quantifiable aspects of a performance, then it makes those aspects less subject to debate, freeing up resources to focus on other things, and make judging less open to corruption, politicking, etc.

 

[ectomorph]

moreover, there were boxing scandal in 1988 seoul olympic as you guys might have heard. The fix was in. but korean boxer admitted himself of the unfair judging. Allegedly, Park himself apologized to Jones afterward. One judge shortly thereafter admitted the decision was a mistake, and all three judges voting against Jones were eventually suspended. Jones was awarded the Val Barker trophy, as the best stylistic boxer of the 1988 games

For me, the worst Olympic judging scandal is Evander Holyfield's bronze medal in Los Angeles, 1984.
Relevant to this discussion because it was a clear case of the gold medal being decided by a single biased official in a crucial role. Sometimes all it takes is one person making a dishonest call.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLnoZrxe5qo

It's plain to anyone that the referee's call to break occurs after the knockout punch.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...holyfield-robbed-of-gold-in-the-1984-olympics

 

[cuon_alpinus]

You shouldn't care about the trolls who are not actual fans of figure skating, or even sport. You see some comments on the internet and you assume that all of Japanese people think so. Should I say I see some unfair comments about Mao from Korean people, so I have the rights to assume that all of Korean people think so?

If you are paying attention to all the trolls, then Youtube is your heaven. Don't go here spreading provoking comments that would turn the thread even more ugly.

I agree with you. We shouldn't care about the trolls who are not actual fans of figure skating. And SO AS Adelina. As I said in my previous comments, I am too very embarrassed and angry to those immature koreans who put those disrespectful comments. However, it seems to me that Adelina is making disrespectful comments about specific country as if other countries are all nice to her. Had Adelina acted a bit more thoughtful after Sochi Olympic, other figure skating fans wouldn't have blamed her so much. I am just sad and pitiful of Adelina that because of her immature acts and interviews, she is getting blamed so much from others. I just hope that there's someone who can advise her to do some better interviews and to act like a champion.

In chess, the computer was used a competitor not as an arbiter of the rules. The proper analogy to Kasparov in figure skating would be if somebody built a robot that could figure skate and do spins, jumps, etc. and entered that robot into the same competitions. Not that this is unprecedented; for example, here's a video of a robot doing a quadruple backflip off of a high bar:

Nice catch

 

[Mathman]

Then, for the most interesting part: I don’t think that the interest towards chess has been killed off. Like any individual sport, it depends on a personality. Kasparov was a generally very popular person and it was also thanks to publicity stunts like his “duels” with a computer program he himself helped to develop. After him, there hasn’t been a similar personality for a while but Magnuss Carlsen is definitely making waves recently and I think the best is yet to come. He’s very young after all.

As in figure skating, I think national pride also plays a role. Carlsen is immensely popular in Norway, where he has commercial endorsements, public appearances, etc. But the guy he beat, Viswanathan Annad, the five-time world champion from India, was also huge in his own country. People mobbed him on the street for autographs wherever he went. Even in the United States there was a short-lived flurry of interest when Bobby Fischer came along.

The disappointing thing about chess-playing computers is that the reason they have no human peer nowadays is simply because they can evaluate a billion moves per second, not because of any advances in artificial intelligence or strategic theory.

 

[sk8in]

If you put a sensor on the competitors skates, I bet you could get pretty valuable and objective data on jumps, rotations, and blade positions. I mean considering all the innovations with smartphones, and camera tracking I bet the technology exists---its just a matter of if they want/can engineer it.

 

[Anna K.]

As in figure skating, I think national pride also plays a role. Carlsen is immensely popular in Norway, where he has commercial endorsements, public appearances, etc. But the guy he beat, Viswanathan Annad, the five-time world champion from India, was also huge in his own country. People mobbed him on the street for autographs wherever he went. Even in the United States there was a short-lived flurry of interest when Bobby Fischer came along.

The disappointing thing about chess-playing computers is that the reason they have no human peer nowadays is simply because they can evaluate a billion moves per second, not because of any advances in artificial intelligence or strategic theory.

Well yeah, it’s hard to corner a computer when it’s about processing digits
However, it took some while to develop the chess program until it became invincible. It think that Kasparov deserves a fair game trophy for the work he did helping to improve the technology; or, the best coach award maybe
I also think that this is not the end of the story. The aim of this kind of game technology is not to replace humans; it’s meant to help humans to realize their potential and in this sense an invincible (in certain aspects) computer simply doesn’t serve its purpose!

What for Carlsen, sure that national pride is a factor and Norway is of course beyond compare but he’s got attention also internationally and he seems to be very media-friendly. No disrespect to other champions but, like Kasparov, Carlsen knows how to sell his charm. I think his popularity will rise really high by time and the popularity of chess game hopefully too.

If you put a sensor on the competitors skates, I bet you could get pretty valuable and objective data on jumps, rotations, and blade positions. I mean considering all the innovations with smartphones, and camera tracking I bet the technology exists---its just a matter of if they want/can engineer it.

That’s what I’m saying! Samsung could do this easily
Even if technology can’t replace judges –it can’t happen instantly anyway, it’s just common sense; the system has to be developed and tested first - it would be a valuable source of data, statistics, and trivia that both public and media like.

 

[capcomeback]

When Yuna fans will get that complain to DC is not and cannot be about results. Its about how panel was made. NO RUSSIANS!!! That is what they are screaming. To satisfy this claim the country shall not be ISU member.

I'm not a Yuna fan. Just callin' it like I saw it. I'm an American who was rooting for Ashley who did not have a chance of making the podium. Objectively, Yuna was the best in Sochi. That is why people like me are upset about the results.

 

[Alba]

And yes, Alla should quit her job. This isn't exactly a radical concept. There are many fields where you can get in trouble for having a spouse with a conflict of interest like that.

And what about those judges who are presidents and vice presidents of their federations?

 

[cuon_alpinus]

And what about those judges who are presidents and vice presidents of their federations?

Lakernik should be banned from figure skating. As a technical controller, it is obvious that he is the one who made the wrong call unlike other anonymous judges.