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- Jan 1, 2013
Oh, but that judge was Korean, so it's all okay! :scowl:
South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging
- Thread starter avantgardener
- Start date
Oh, but that judge was Korean, so it's all okay! :scowl:
You bar them from judging as well. You create an independent body to hire and train figure skating judges who have nothing to do with the national federations. Case closed. If you're the President or Vice President of a federation, you already have a job!
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- Feb 26, 2014
It' not obvious at all because you have no evidence whatsoever . You don't know if all the the tech. panel did or did not agree about those calls. So stop presenting your opinion as a fact.
However, what you think about Lakernik is not relevant to the question I made.
I repeat again. If the Russian judge, Alla, should quit her job because she is the wife of the Rus. Fed. what are those judges who are presidents and vice presidents of their federations suppose to do? I think it's even worse, IMO.
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- Feb 26, 2014
Very good. So why are we talking about one person alone?
You need a lot of money for that. Good luck.
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- Mar 28, 2014
Technical Controller can overrule any decision that was made by other judges, which means he himself is able to manipulate the scores. Moreover, there is Olga baranova, Assistant Technical Specialist, who can support Lakernik's decision if any other judges disagrees.
We're talking about the results at the Olympics which happen to pertain to the Russian officials who controlled much of the scoring at the event.
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- Feb 26, 2014
No that's no true. If they all don't agree on one or more calls the majority wins, so it means 2 out of 3. The tech. Controller can not overrule a a decision made by the majority.
First of all what is wrong with that? She is the Assis.Tech.Specialist so if she agrees with him or Gusmeroli I guess she is doing her job.
Second, how do you know she was not in majority with Gusmeroli and not Lakernik? How do you know that Lakernik was not in majority with Gusmeroli instead? How do you know they all didn't agree on the calls?
Not even Beverley Smith, the "queen" of conspiracy theories (or maybe the queen must be Christine Brennan :sarcasm
dared to throw doubt on her, and I quote: "Olga Baranova, the assistant technical specialist from Finland, is by all accounts, quite good at her job."So, based on what evidence can you accuse her of fault play?
You see, the technical panel part is the easiest part to check if there is an investigation because all calls by the technical panel are recorded on audio tape during a program and a video is made to verify the calls.
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- Feb 26, 2014
Oh I see. We are talking about the results at the Olympic, which we don't like and agree with. So, if Yuna would've won Alla's marital status would have not been a problem at all.
If there weren't highly questionable calls and scoring at the Olympics we wouldn't be critiquing the judging system, no. If Yuna won by 50 points after stumbling on a triple jump, and the judges were hugging her afterwards we would be questioning the judging the same. It just so happens that Alla's conflict of interest aligns with the judging discrepancies that we're talking about.
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- Mar 23, 2010
geezz.. you should all settle down.. we don't even know the whole content of that complaint yet.. all we have are statements.. not really the entire complaint.. who knows what's inside the document.. or if there's any merit or whatever it is.. we don't know.. all these speculations regarding the complaint is hypothetical and honestly i don't think ISU/KOC/KSU will publish this in public..
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- Feb 26, 2014
Questionable is one thing, presenting it as a fact without any evidence is another.
Using her marital status, as if she's the only one, to support our doubts or convictions after the results, it's the wrong way to do it. IMO.
I'm sorry but not criticising the conflict of interest - which by definition can lead to unfairness decisions and corruption - in advance, or after, even when there are no questionable calls, it's hypocrisy at best.
Basically what you are saying is: let's wait for the result and if we don't agree with that, then we can criticise something which was wrong from the beginning.
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- Feb 26, 2014
I fully agree with you, but this discussion has turned out to be not about the content of that KOC/KSU complaint but the content of our complains.
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- Mar 1, 2014
I agree with this 100%
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- Mar 28, 2014
No that's no true. If they all don't agree on one or more calls the majority wins, so it means 2 out of 3. The tech. Controller can not overrule a a decision made by the majority.
First of all what is wrong with that? She is the Assis.Tech.Specialist so if she agrees with him or Gusmeroli I guess she is doing her job.
Second, how do you know she was not in majority with Gusmeroli and not Lakernik? How do you know that Lakernik was not in majority with Gusmeroli instead? How do you know they all didn't agree on the calls?
Not even Beverley Smith, the "queen" of conspiracy theories (or maybe the queen must be Christine Brennan :sarcasm
So, based on what evidence can you accuse her of fault play?
You see, the technical panel part is the easiest part to check if there is an investigation because all calls by the technical panel are recorded on audio tape during a program and a video is made to verify the calls.
Let me introduce to you what exactly ISU rule book says. "The Technical Panel is composed of the Technical Controller, the Technical Specialist and the Assistant Technical Specialist" "The Technical Controller authorizes or corrects all calls, supervises the Data Operator and can propose corrections, if necessary.
In case of disagreement, the majority among the three Officials prevails." which means Olga Baranova and Alexander Lakernik can overrule GUSMEROLI Vanessa's(Technical Specialist) decision or disagreement. Olga Baranova is former russian if you will.
The quote that you provided is her sarcastic expression ::yes:: "Olga Baranova, the assistant technical specialist from Finland, is by all accounts, quite good at her job." Her article is about judging controversy.
"An instantaneous slow-motion video replay system operated by a Replay Operator supports the Technical Panel in the identification of the performed elements." This quote also supports the idea that judge panel shouldn't make mistakes since they have slow video replay system.
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- Mar 28, 2014
Since the rule had been changed after 2002 Salt Lake Olympic into more absurd way, it became harder to appeal or complain about the result or judges. But let me introduce to you some ISU General Regulations.
1. According to ISU General REgulation D. Competition rule 121 #3,5,6, they violated the conflict of interest.
a)#3 says that "a person of the family of a competing Skater is not permitted to serve as an Official of the competition in which such Skater is entered." [Alexander Lakernik(russian federation vice presiden), Alla(wife of general director)]
b)#5 says that "term ”family” as used in this Rule shall be understood as including all persons who, due to their relationships, may reasonably appear to be in a conflict of interest position regarding a competing Skater, ineligible person or remunerated Coach." [Alla, Lakernik]
c)#6 says that "the Referee(s) shall decide any issues raised at the event concerning conflicts of interest or other matters involving the applicability of the ISU Code of Ethics to assigned ISU Officials." [Dereliction of duty of Lakernik]
d) phone interview from Cinquanta and Philip Hersch. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...nal-skating-union-figure-skating-official-isu
[“Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?” Cinquanta said. “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest.]
Self contradiction here
b)#5 says that "term ”family” as used in this Rule shall be understood as including all persons who, due to their relationships, may reasonably appear to be in a conflict of interest position regarding a competing Skater, ineligible person or remunerated Coach." [Alla, Lakernik]
c)#6 says that "the Referee(s) shall decide any issues raised at the event concerning conflicts of interest or other matters involving the applicability of the ISU Code of Ethics to assigned ISU Officials." [Dereliction of duty of Lakernik]
d) phone interview from Cinquanta and Philip Hersch. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...nal-skating-union-figure-skating-official-isu
[“Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?” Cinquanta said. “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest.]
Self contradiction here
2. Dereliction of duties of judging panel.
They clearly have instant video replay which they can re-watch very very slowly if the skaters had made mistakes. They might not see during her performance, but they can clearly see them after the performance during video replay. It is clear that Sotnikova had wrong edge and under-rotation. But they didn't mark correctly. And her levels of step-sequence and not enough deduction on her two-footed landing should also be considered.
AND Yuri Balkov
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- Nov 12, 2013
Are Lakernik and Alla FAMILY of Adelina?
As many have pointed out, the head of the KSU was a judge at Vancouver where Yuna won OGM, yet nobody raised a stink about conflict of interest then?
The case of the KSU and Yuna's fans can be summarized as follows:
1) Yuna didn't win Olympic Gold, so there MUST be corruption and fraud
2) Since there MUST be fraud so WHO are the ones most likely to have committed them?
3) They MUST be the Russians or ex Soviet nationals.
4) A Russian judge hugged Adelina, so she MUST have committed fraud.
5) Tech Controller is Russian, so therefore MUST have committed fraud.
6) Those who gave POSITIVE GOEs to Adelina MUST have committed fraud.
7) Those who DIDN'T award Yuna Level 4s and POSITIVE GOEs MUST have committed fraud.
Therefore the Sochi results are FRAUDULENT.
Yuna didn't win = Corruption.
Note to this date, there's no concrete evidence of fraud, just staunch and emotional opinions.
If the rules are examined, Adelina receiving -0.9 for her stumble in her combination jump is correct, as it was an over rotated jump and the other jumps in the combination were fine. So she was penalized for that last small jump and -0.9 is correct UNDER THE RULES.
Yet Yuna's fans' logic is : There was a stumble, Adelina's performance wasn't perfect, so Yuna should win because she skated more perfectly and there wasn't an obvious flaw in her performance!
Again, as many of us pointed out, Adelina gamed the CoP better than Yuna, she did win fair and square. This has nothing to do with whom is the better skater, etc., it was a sports competition, with specific rules, whom ever played by the rules on that evening to score higher, won.
Yuna herself did the same gaming for Vancouver 2010 vs Mao and won. It is the same here at Sochi.
If Mao hadn't fallen during SP, she would have gamed Sochi and won over Yuna. Yuna didn't bring her A game to Sochi, and with one of the lowest BV among the top tier, left the door opened for Mao, as well as Adelina, Julia and Caro, IF they were to skate relatively clean. I can understand her strategy - her opponents have shown very little consistency in the lead up to Sochi. At GPs, Nationals, Euro, etc., Mao, Adelina and Caro all couldn't skate clean, Mao even lost to Akiko in Japan, and Julia, though more consistent than the others, still looks like a mere slip of a girl. Playing slow and steady could win over more ambitious programs which were highly likely to result in a splatfest, like the Men's. Mao indeed failed to deliver her SP, however, the other two, Caro and Adelina, surprisingly skated their cleanest, and became a threat because of their higher BV.
KSU still hasn't provided REAL evidence of a crime committed, yet Yuna's fans have no qualms about storming the internet to accuse, allege and attack Adelina, Sochi, and Russia.:disapp:
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- Mar 28, 2014
I still can’t fathom how Cinquanta could leave the two infamous quotes;
1. “Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?”
um… Didn’t ISU say they followed the protocol every step of the way and there was nothing wrong with the judging in Ladies Figure Skating event? How can we trust that statement if head of ISU has that thought in his mind? He’s actually admitting that he’s willing to overlook rule 121 “conflict of interest” when needed. And it’s exactly what happened at Sochi.
2. “We are not perfect, as also the skaters are not perfect. Sometimes, they do a mistake. Mistakes are possible, because we are human beings.”
First of all, it’s funny that Cinquanta himself admitted there was a chance that judges made mistakes. – What disgusts me is that Cinquanta can say that so openly because he knows people can’t do anything about it – ISU rule makes sure the marks given by the judges can’t be challenged or protested in any way. (Unless there was a calculation error) And anonymous judging systems lets the judges off the hook from being pinpointed for any mistakes they make. Judges are supposed to be professionals who are paid to follow the exact protocols as they judge a skater’s performance. They are supposed to be well-educated on how to judge objectively and accurately based on the performance. They should be competent enough to catch flutz, pre/under-rotation, full blade take off and award correct levels on the elements like step sequence. They also should be able to acknowledge quality of execution when they see the performances. They are human, yes, but the way Cinquanta rationalizes and defends the technical/judging panel’s mistakes only raises questions as to whether ISU is doing everything in their power to minimize those mistakes. Where’s the infallible ISU judging system that makes sure those errors are minimized? I looked at their guidelines of giving out GoE – and I was laughing at how vague the guidelines are. They have a bunch of checklist (which by the way have no detailed explanation as to how a checklist can be satisfied – and they say “It is at the
discretion of each Judge to decide on the number of bullets/checklist for any upgrade, but general recommendations are as follows;”)
Cinquanta needs to wake up and face reality – His long reign founded upon power, connections, and sponsorship, are crashing down…
1. “Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?”
um… Didn’t ISU say they followed the protocol every step of the way and there was nothing wrong with the judging in Ladies Figure Skating event? How can we trust that statement if head of ISU has that thought in his mind? He’s actually admitting that he’s willing to overlook rule 121 “conflict of interest” when needed. And it’s exactly what happened at Sochi.
2. “We are not perfect, as also the skaters are not perfect. Sometimes, they do a mistake. Mistakes are possible, because we are human beings.”
First of all, it’s funny that Cinquanta himself admitted there was a chance that judges made mistakes. – What disgusts me is that Cinquanta can say that so openly because he knows people can’t do anything about it – ISU rule makes sure the marks given by the judges can’t be challenged or protested in any way. (Unless there was a calculation error) And anonymous judging systems lets the judges off the hook from being pinpointed for any mistakes they make. Judges are supposed to be professionals who are paid to follow the exact protocols as they judge a skater’s performance. They are supposed to be well-educated on how to judge objectively and accurately based on the performance. They should be competent enough to catch flutz, pre/under-rotation, full blade take off and award correct levels on the elements like step sequence. They also should be able to acknowledge quality of execution when they see the performances. They are human, yes, but the way Cinquanta rationalizes and defends the technical/judging panel’s mistakes only raises questions as to whether ISU is doing everything in their power to minimize those mistakes. Where’s the infallible ISU judging system that makes sure those errors are minimized? I looked at their guidelines of giving out GoE – and I was laughing at how vague the guidelines are. They have a bunch of checklist (which by the way have no detailed explanation as to how a checklist can be satisfied – and they say “It is at the
discretion of each Judge to decide on the number of bullets/checklist for any upgrade, but general recommendations are as follows;”)
Cinquanta needs to wake up and face reality – His long reign founded upon power, connections, and sponsorship, are crashing down…
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
To be more precise the Duties and powers of the Technical Controller are:
–authorizes or corrects the deletion of elements;
–supervises the Technical Specialists and Data Operator and proposes corrections, if necessary, respecting any performed element and Level of Difficulty identified by the serving Technical Specialist and Assistant Technical Specialist.
However, if both Technical Specialists disagree with a correction asked for by the Technical Controller, the initial decision of the Technical Specialist and Assistant Technical Specialist stands. In the case a disagreement about an element and/or Level of Difficulty exists between the Technical Specialist and Assistant Technical Specialist, the decision of the Technical Controller prevails.
http://static.isu.org/media/79156/2012_specialregulations_technicalrules_singleandpair_icedance.pdf
Which is exactly what I said, while you....
Who needs to be introduced to the ISU rule book? :sarcasm:
Which mean also that Baronova and Gusmeroli can overrule Lakernik, or Gusmeroli and Lakernik can overrule Baronova.
Oh I forgot her orginis. She must be corrupt then by definitions. I see.
No it's not sarcastic at all. Where do you see the sarcasm here, or it's just your imagination working deeper and deeper again? Her article is about judging controversy and the issues she has are about Alla, Lakernik and Balkov, not about about Baranova.
She wrongly states that Lakernik as technical controller, could overrule any of the decisions made by the specialists which is not true.
Anyway, it doesn't change anything because Beverley Hills it's not the bible, but just saying.
Which is totally irrelevant in the discussion we were having. I'm not the one here who thinks that judges are all a bunch of incompetents.
The same rules I suppose applies to the canadian judge for the Ice Dance in Vancouver, the Korean judge in Vancouver, Canadian judge again in Sochi, one of the most powerful persons of USFS sitting in the Ice Dance panel in Sochi etc., right? Or is it a rule written for the Russians and the surrounding countries only?
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- Mar 28, 2014
my mistake on the first one, but that's why I later stated that Olga Baranova and Alexander Lakernik can overrule Technical Specialist(GUSMEROLI ).
She is, why would she say something that contradicts her own writing? :think:
Why is the fact that those judges made mistake not relevant on what we are discussing? We are talking about the qualification of those judges.
So you are the one who thinks that those judges are adroit!! Even though they missed Sotnikova's under-rotation and wrong edges??? (Yeah, I guess you can say that they are competent on making a rigged judging scandal^^) Look at Yuri Balkov, he did it again!!
Lol you should tell me more korean and canadian judges. They are just one, while in this Sochi scandal, it's more than that.
Free Skating – Panel of Judges : Home Cooking System : Technical Controller : Lakernik Alexander (Russia : Russian federation's former vice-president), Assistant Technical Specialist : Baranova Olga (Russian naturalized : Finland, have coached in Russia), Judges : Yuri Balkov(no need to mention
), Shekhovtseva Alla(wife of russian federation general director) , Replay Operator: Alexander Kuznetsov(russian, "after 2002 Salt Lake Games, Russian officials, including Kuznetsov, expressed frustration that the Canadians pushed to have the pair of Jamie Sale and David Pelletier elevated to a gold medal. ["The russians would never have brought up this issue,"] said Kuznetsov, identified as a figure skating coach. The Russian would have proven their right to victory at the next competition")Okay let's just assume that these judges may have judged without bias and with honesty.
Then would you like to explain why these statistical analysis indicates that the judging was clearly biased?
http://www.mediafire.com/view/q5f5ycxtb4w3g4u/SochiStatAnalysis.pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/view/3g8cai3hcbsovlt/SochiStatAnalysis_v2.pdf
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