South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

[Sam-Skwantch]

Thank you MM!

 

[[email protected]]

As the new season starts this all will end....until the Olympics in Korea.

 

[jaylee]

Here is how the -.90 is calculated. Six judges gave -1 GOE and three judges gave -2 GOE. After discarding one of each (highest and lowest) that left 5 -1s and 2 -2s. The average of these seven scores -9/7 = -1.2857. For a triple flip (actually, for all triple jumps except a triple Axel) these raw score points are factored by .70. Multiply -9/7 by .7 for a final GOE score of -.9 on the element.

Actually, i think the .7 is applied first, then average, to avoid rounding errors: Average these scores to get -.9:

-.7, -.7, -.7, -.7, -.7, -1.4, -1.4

And it deserved -1.4 across the board.

 

[sky_fly20]

the news seems to have shifted focus to a recent tragedy that happened in Korea now

 

[Rubirosa]

choosing to only voice those beliefs in when a case of injustice presents itself is different.

Is it how the court system works in your place, ms/mr have no idea where you are from? It's fine if you relative judge takes my case if he makes the decision I like?

Yuna never mentioned any of those

She did. She did it in an interview with Korean TV network SBS and specifically mentioned Japanese rivals. There was a reaction on it from Japan Skating Federation, so it was official matter. You are either ignorant or lying, none of which is new when it comes to Yuna fans. Sunflower seeds? Yeah, she trolled her fans well, considering that sunflowers were for Mao from her Japanese fans. So it's not like Yuna had a necessity to use the word "Japan" in it.

Her atttude after Sochi was very unclassy to her rival too. Those demands to correct the quotes exposed it.

 

[qwertyskates]

Statistical analysis across competitions is not a reliable tool for high performance sport because most elite skaters are INCONSISTENT. Skaters such as Adelina and Mao succumb to competition pressures and nerves such that they might land their jumps perfectly during practice but less often at competitions. In that sense, "miracles" DO occur, eg Adelina and Mao skated relatively clean LPs at Sochi, even though statistically, their 2013-2014 competitions were sub par. Mao lands her 3A most of the time, just not most of the time *at competitions*.

PCS is also statistically unreliable because judges in general started awarding the younger skaters (both men and ladies) higher PCS in the run-up to Sochi to bridge the gap with veterans such that these younger skaters stood a decent chance and competed on a more level playing field. Otherwise, there is simply no way to beat a PCS gap of 15-25.

One can argue that one skater deserves a PCS boost more than another, but that is subjective opinion. What matters is that PCS statistically *can and does* go up by 20+ over a quad for other skaters without controversy, not just for Adelina.

 

[sk8in]

@qwerty
GOE is awarded based on individual elements, not "clean" programs. This isn't the 6.0 system. That is why you can measure discrepancies between competitions. Also PCS is not the same thing as the artistic score under the 6.0 system either. They are not measurable like rotations in a jump are, but they're not exactly subjective either. Something like a skater's speed, and edges is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of observation from someone who understands the sport. Like what is good posture? Well that isn't something just anyone just articulate or see, but it isn't a matter of subjective opinion either.

 

[qwertyskates]

@qwerty
GOE is awarded based on individual elements, not "clean" programs. This isn't the 6.0 system. That is why you can measure discrepancies between competitions. Also PCS is not the same thing as the artistic score under the 6.0 system either. They are not measurable like rotations in a jump are, but they're not exactly subjective either. Something like a skater's speed, and edges is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of observation from someone who understands the sport. Like what is good posture? Well that isn't something just anyone just articulate or see, but it isn't a matter of subjective opinion either.

What...? What has "posture" got to do with TES or PCS?

Of course GOE is determined by clean performances, CLEAN means all (or nearly all) the elements were properly or well executed, which would lead to better GOEs scored.

You cannot measure ACROSS competitions because there are highly variable factors, human judges/tech panels, different programs/choreography and human performers. Human skaters might flop for 90% of competitions but deliver an outstanding performance when it counts, which would look like a "miracle" in statistical terms but completely NORMAL for difficult FS programs. Unlike most elite sports, eg. 100m sprint, where consistency is present, figure skating is notoriously slippery. Fewer variables make the 100m sprint statistical predictions and calculations more meaningful.

Caro, Adelina and Mao skated clean LPs for Sochi, despite falling at almost all of the other competitions. That is a fact.

Judges would differ in their own judgment, generosity and preferences, placing value on certain aspects of the elements more than others among the bullet points, and as each skater's program is different, they might have viewed the same element performed at different angles and made their judgment based on what they saw. Skaters also change or tweak their programs, Caro completely changed both of her SP and LP for Sochi. Performing the exact same jump by the same skater could receive a different GOE if he/she hits the right musical note which enhances the performance for one of the jumps. Even different temperature, audiences, rinks and ice surfaces could affect a skater's performance!

CoP is supposed to help eliminate subjectivity but there are too many variables to make figure skating performances and how they are judged statistically meaningful.

 

[Jewels]

For those who're still in doubt I'll post the exact words
(일부 선수들로부터 기선제압이 있었다)지난 4대륙 선수권 때 조금 심했다는 느낌이 들었다. 그렇게까지 해야할까라는 생각이 많이 들고 말려들지 않고 싶다. 대처 방법을 찾고 있다.
(There was a 'pressure' from 'few' skaters)I thought it was a bit too much in 4cc. I don't know why they did it and I don't want to be included. I'm looking for a way to get over it.
Also the 'Korean Federation' confirmed that she never mentioned a particular country or skater and that they are gonna talk with the Japanese officials. http://www.cyworld.com/yogi824_part2/2857180 (It's a blog that copied the article from Chosun Ilbo, with the name of the journalist who wrote it.)

Someone thinks he/she knows Korean language better than an actual Korean lol I saw that interview myself, Yuna never mentioned Japan or Japanese(and of course she never mentioned the individual skaters' names), and when there were too much talking, her management company confirmed that a broad interpretation was going on. So some Yuna fans, including me, were curious why, the Japanese federation reacted to that comment while Yuna didn't say it was Japanese skaters.
Yuna directly said in the interview that it WASN't the sunflower seeds that made her skip the jump, that she's not blaming anyone, and believes that it was the ice she caught in her blade. Does anyone need a copy of that article too? So to anyone saying Yuna meant 'the sunflower seeds from Mao fans', I want to ask, 'Do you have mind reading abilities?' Oh same goes for the practice interview
And saying someone is 'lying and ignorant' just because what they are saying different from what you already know,(especially when 'someone' says they checked the fact in person) is not a rational or objective behaviour IMO Well, it seems some people only believe what they want to believe, and hear what they'd like to hear.

 

[sk8in]

You cannot measure ACROSS competitions because there are highly variable factors, human judges/tech panels,

Judges would differ in their own judgment, generosity and preferences, placing value on certain aspects of the elements more than others

Ok, this part of what you say is true. You can't account for different judges, at different competitions who have different value systems. Nonetheless, when a skater has an established their technique for certain jumps---their GOE is not supposed to fluctuate at a certain point. Unless they actually mess up a jump---or fix it in some way, or the rules change their GOE should not be swinging around wildly. That is why judges scores are averaged after all.

What...? What has "posture" got to do with TES or PCS?

Of course GOE is determined by clean performances, CLEAN means all (or nearly all) the elements were properly or well executed, which would lead to better GOEs scored.

Caro, Adelina and Mao skated clean LPs for Sochi, despite falling at almost all of the other competitions. That is a fact.

And this is the part of what you say is bs. There is no such thing as GOE for a "clean performance." Every element is judged individually. That is why it is called the Technical Elements Score. That is why Hanyu can fall and still win gold. The technical score is cumulative, not holistic. Thus Carolina and Mao skating their first clean programs is irrelevant to GOE markings. In fact Mao did skate a clean long program with elements that had higher base value than anyone, and her technical score was lower than Adelina's for this exact reason. Mao properly rotating a triple axle for instance is relevant to her GOE.

Also posture is part of skating skills and presentation (PCS). If a skater has poor core strength they will not be able to perform through the whole program.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

^but if in your hypothetical Mao and Caro skate well first...it's entirely possible that the judges may in fact hand out lower scores for the skaters that follow if they themselves don't "raise their game". I'm a fan of Yuna who actually thought going in she would win hands down. Disappointed is too strong of a word but I'm not afraid to say I was underwhelmed by her "effort". It just seemed too nonchalant to me. It's just my opinion so take it as that. I am probably holding her to her 2013 WC's level which isn't fair I'll admit too. I think Adelina and Caro out performed her in Sochi. When it comes to understated elegance and beauty it goes to Yuna hands down. I guess I'm just not up in arms because I honestly think Yuna was over the Olympics before she ever got to Sochi. I honestly see nothing wrong with awarding what at least looked like more effort the gold medal. It maybe and probably wasn't more effort or even better but it appeared to me at least that Yuna had checked out in a way and was sort just running thru the motions(however beautiful they were) Again it's just my opinion and I can still see three distinct victory stories and none would ever hold up in a court of law.

 

[gettinglow]

Eh, let's just hope the official complaint will have some practical results when it comes to corruption and judging. At the next Winter Olympics I expect that none of the judges will obviously be cheating the way the Russian judge and the Russian caller were when they made sure Adelina Sotnikova won the gold medal.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

^cheating is the wrong word. This was done well within the ISU guidelines. I'd be very curious to see someone post a guideline that was broken. Assuming Russian judges cheated by nationality alone will bring nothing except bitterness and possibly derail the whole process. If the judging system is to be changed we should treat Sochi as an outlier incident and focus on other events which really is the heart and soul of figure skating IMHO.

 

[cuon_alpinus]

I was underwhelmed by her "effort". It just seemed too nonchalant to me.

How do you know how much yuna put the "effort" into it? Yuna and David Wilson said that this 'adios nonino' is going to be the hardest program that she will ever do. I am glad that she chose this music and choreography. It wasn't as impressive like her other programs(gershwin, les mis) at first, but as I watch more and more, I started to recognize the true beauty of her program. To me, it's filled with impressive choreography and step sequences. Moving vigorously doesn't equate difficulty. Yuna became one with the music and played the music. She even presented several tango movements well like 'enrosque', 'voleo', and 'abrazo'. She performed 'nuevo tango' very well. To me, this is the most difficult and impressive program among any other programs from Yuna.

And yes, she was nonchalant to the high pressure in the arena.

 

[anyanka]

How do you know how much yuna put the "effort" into it? Yuna and David Wilson said that this 'adios nonino' is going to be the hardest program that she will ever do. I am glad that she chose this music and choreography. It wasn't as impressive like her other programs(gershwin, les mis) at first, but as I watch more and more, I started to recognize the true beauty of her program. To me, it's filled with impressive choreography and step sequences. Moving vigorously doesn't equate difficulty. Yuna became one with the music and played the music. She even presented several tango movements well like 'enrosque', 'voleo', and 'abrazo'. She performed 'nuevo tango' very well. To me, this is the most difficult and impressive program among any other program's from Yuna.

And yes, she was nonchalant to the high pressure in the arena.

You hit the points as to why I loved the program, too. Admittedly it looked rather stiff at Golden Spin and rusty at Korean nationals and I wondered if she really was going to win. That being said, I see where technically she isn't as polished as when she was at the peak of her powers, but I did come to appreciate the little movements that made it look like a tango, and the maturity and subtlety she brings that wove a spell. The performance ranks amongst my faves of her skates. Perhaps it was too sedate / mellow for the games? I wonder if she had just brought back either Arirang (which she used only once) or Les Mis (when she skated her career performance, better than 2010 OG IMO). I mention Arirang because she didn't skate it to perfection, and Les Mis she would have had the material to make magic again, the music is more involving than Adios Nonino, but no less lovely.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I was just saying how it appeared. It's hard to say Yuna at 2013 WC's wasn't more impressive than at Sochi. It might be unfair to hold her to her own standards yes...but it isn't unheard of. I loved every skate by Yuna in Sochi on a personal level more so than Adelina. It just wasn't delivered with an over the top passion to me. Something was missing or out of place if you will. It was just very understated...maybe so much to the point that it was hard to recognize and lost on some people. It's not an insult...it's an observation I believe to be fair.

 

[bara1968]

It seems like someone did not even open the file i.e. Statistical analysis from italian professor.

With regard to TES, he did meaningful analysis solely baced on Sochi protocols.

 

[Skater Boy]

I am not sure if changes in the scoring system is the answer and the sport might be destroyed with so called more changes to make the sport more fair, more transparent, more like a sport.

 

[cuon_alpinus]

I was just saying how it appeared. It just wasn't delivered with an over the top passion to me. Something was missing or out of place if you will. It was just very understated...maybe so much to the point that it was hard to recognize and lost on some people. It's not an insult...it's an observation I believe to be fair.

You hit the points as to why I loved the program, too. I did come to appreciate the little movements that made it look like a tango, and the maturity and subtlety she brings that wove a spell. The performance ranks amongst my faves of her skates. Perhaps it was too sedate / mellow for the games? I wonder if she had just brought back either Arirang (which she used only once) or Les Mis (when she skated her career performance, better than 2010 OG IMO). I mention Arirang because she didn't skate it to perfection, and Les Mis she would have had the material to make magic again, the music is more involving than Adios Nonino, but no less lovely.

I agree with you. At first, I couldn't understand the program and was baffled at her cold looking performance. She could have chosen more enthusiastic music, but I think she chose this music because she didn't expect to get a gold medal in Sochi. And she said, she always wanted to perform this music after crying on Jeff's adios nonino that David Wilson showed her(she said it was the first time that she cried watching figure skating performance).

I also hoped that she would bring back other program like les mis, but I guess Yuna didn't like to bring old programs as she has never done.

As someone said earlier, The music is about elegy to late father. Therefore, Yuna's performance is different from ordinary sassy Tango. It's about a memory of past, most of the performance is subdued, emotions are burning inside, occasionally a flash of lightness and smile, even a little flirtatious, and reflecting the memory of good times. in the end, reminisce of everything: good, bad, ugly.

After watching it many times, I dare say that this program is a masterpiece. Never gets boring even after watching many times.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I am not sure if changes in the scoring system is the answer and the sport might be destroyed with so called more changes to make the sport more fair, more transparent, more like a sport.

Is there anything wrong with the judges putting the bullets they used to establish GOE on the protocols? I have suggested this and even wanted the judges to write something in a "notes section" for each element. It could only apply to any element scoring over +1 or under -1 GOE. That shouldn't destroy the sport and will tell skaters what they did well or did poorly while exposing how judges are awarding scores. Should be a win win.