2017-18 State of Russian Men's skating

vorravorra · Oct 1, 2017

vorravorra said:
Samarin is still not fully recovered from an injury. And now Kovtun is not on the list for Skate Canada any more, presumably also due to his injury hwell: And of course Aliev had to withdraw from ONM. We are going to run out of men at this rate.

http://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links/isu-files/event-documents/figure-skating-4/2017-18-6/gp-6/series-files-10/entries/7516-gp-men/file

According to Kovtun, he's had back problems and the first competition he is going to take part in is Skate America. Presumably this means Lazukin at Finlandia.

Artemisa · Oct 1, 2017

plushyfan said:
as a coach I hope

lol... at least Plushenko can land 4 consistently ...without two foots, a fall or a transformation in other jump with less rotation... he should teach the others men skaters how to do it ... because at this moment the hope of russia have a good results in men are very slim ....

vorravorra · Oct 1, 2017

Artemisa said:
lol... at least Plushenko can land 4 consistently ...without two foots, a fall or a transformation in other jump with less rotation... he should teach the others men skaters how to do it ... because at this moment the hope of russia have a good results in men are very slim ....

If it was possible to get somewhere in men's skating while doing quads like in Plushenko's time, the current Russian men would probably have a higher success rate in landing them too. Problem is, they have to do 4-5 with some more "expensive" quads in the mix. Very few skaters can up the tech content drastically and start landing quads like nobody's business right away.

silverfoxes · Oct 1, 2017

Artemisa said:
lol... at least Plushenko can land 4 consistently ...without two foots, a fall or a transformation in other jump with less rotation... he should teach the others men skaters how to do it ... because at this moment the hope of russia have a good results in men are very slim ....

Did you just wake up from a several years' long coma?

I'm sure it never entered his mind to start teaching other skaters how to jump. It probably never comes up now that he is a coach and has not competed since 2014. Do you remember how that ended? :palmf:

Can we please MOVE ON and stop entertaining this silly fantasy of him coming back? When Plushy himself realized it wasn't happening, it was already well past time for the rest of the world to accept it.

moonkat · Oct 7, 2017

Kolyada is great! Being healthy enough to compete is a form of consistency, and good technique helps with that right?

gmyers · Oct 7, 2017

moonkat said:
Kolyada is great! Being healthy enough to compete is a form of consistency, and good technique helps with that right?

Good technique should help prevent injury and be consistent but the mental strain of being in competion is something kolyada can’t deal with well. So he’s training well, and can do jumps and is healthy and then while competing he falls apart. One if the most common stories in sports. He needs a sports psychologist to train mentally. Mental health is so important and now I think I remember he is working with a psychologists. Or is it kovtun? Anyway there is physically consistent and healthy and mentally healthy and consistent and you can’t have one without the other and right now there doesn’t seem any capability to mentally deal with competing.

Yatagarasu · Oct 7, 2017

moonkat said:
Kolyada is great! Being healthy enough to compete is a form of consistency, and good technique helps with that right?

Kolyada needs to get rid of his 4Lz as an opening jump. Just push it aside for now. It was introduced too soon anyway, so now it's pretty much a mental block. Down he goes, down the program goes. I would even leave a 3Lz as the first one, and then simply do the rest of the FS as planned. It'd still net him high enough scores and hopefully in time, he can reintroduce the last quad. But as it is, it is just not working out and he's sacrificing everything when there is no need.

vorravorra · Oct 7, 2017

Yatagarasu said:
Kolyada needs to get rid of his 4Lz as an opening jump. Just push it aside for now. It was introduced too soon anyway, so now it's pretty much a mental block. Down he goes, down the program goes. I would even leave a 3Lz as the first one, and then simply do the rest of the FS as planned. It'd still net him high enough scores and hopefully in time, he can reintroduce the last quad. But as it is, it is just not working out and he's sacrificing everything when there is no need.

The point is, last season a fallen 4Lz did not kill the rest of the program. It has to be more than this. And does he really have a better chance of a good 4S? At this point it's far from clear. (And no, he can't get rid of both, not in the present reality.)

silverfoxes · Oct 7, 2017

moonkat said:
Kolyada is great! Being healthy enough to compete is a form of consistency, and good technique helps with that right?

Is this sarcasm? I honestly can't tell, but I automatically read it as if gmyers wrote it :laugh:

Does Mikhail have some nice qualities to his skating, of course. But he's had 2 meltdowns at 2 senior Bs already. How is he going to handle a competition that actually matters? Anyway, can we please talk about someone else for a change? Alexey Erokhov won his 2nd JGP by a healthy margin although he didn't have the best skate today, either. But the difference is that he got it together after making his mistakes and fought for it...Mikhail just gives up.

gmyers · Oct 8, 2017

silverfoxes said:
Is this sarcasm? I honestly can't tell, but I automatically read it as if gmyers wrote it

Does Mikhail have some nice qualities to his skating, of course. But he's had 2 meltdowns at 2 senior Bs already. How is he going to handle a competition that actually matters? Anyway, can we please talk about someone else for a change? Alexey Erokhov won his 2nd JGP by a healthy margin although he didn't have the best skate today, either. But the difference is that he got it together after making his mistakes and fought for it...Mikhail just gives up.

Erokhov has a great coach of course but a part of the problem of Russian men is total inability to make transition from junior to seniors. So I hope Tutberidze can help that situation! Plus it’s no coincidence that almost all successful men train in North America so hopefully he may consider doing that.

vorravorra · Oct 8, 2017

silverfoxes said:
Is this sarcasm? I honestly can't tell, but I automatically read it as if gmyers wrote it

Does Mikhail have some nice qualities to his skating, of course. But he's had 2 meltdowns at 2 senior Bs already. How is he going to handle a competition that actually matters? Anyway, can we please talk about someone else for a change? Alexey Erokhov won his 2nd JGP by a healthy margin although he didn't have the best skate today, either. But the difference is that he got it together after making his mistakes and fought for it...Mikhail just gives up.

So far, better. Compare his scores at senior Bs and Euros and Worlds. And someone who gives up does not skate a better second half of the program than the first.

Yatagarasu · Oct 8, 2017

vorravorra said:
The point is, last season a fallen 4Lz did not kill the rest of the program. It has to be more than this. And does he really have a better chance of a good 4S? At this point it's far from clear. (And no, he can't get rid of both, not in the present reality.)

Last season is part of the problem. He introduced the 4Lz too early, I don't think this is debatable. He has indeed had the whole of last season and then the off season and now we're already 2 events in (for him) and things are not at all working out. This season dovetails onto the last, and mental blocks are formed in precisely this manner among other things - by repeated negative patterns. He's human with limits; at some point it has to influence him.

I'm not suggesting losing the 4Lz forever. Skate with an opening 3Lz in the GPs (his chances of the GPF are low anyway) and try and consolidate the rest of the program. I am sure he can find a local event or two to practice more. He had a pretty good score here with the 3Lz SP, didn't he? Let him settle down a little and then reintroduce the 4Lz, after he's had a break with it and then a reintroduction. I don't think a wonky 4S would hurt him in this set-up, in fact, focusing on the Sal may eventually help the Lz too (in terms of mental strength).

vorravorra · Oct 8, 2017

Ok, never mind Kolyada, we can discuss him in his thread. But why or why is Lazukin getting such lousy PCS? Are the judges blind or something? He is so damn musical and balletic. Of course they don't know him and he's been having trouble with jumps and that apparently means everything else you do on ice is crappy too. He is one skater I would probably prefer to watch without the distraction of jumps.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 9, 2017

Yatagarasu said:
Kolyada needs to get rid of his 4Lz as an opening jump. Just push it aside for now. It was introduced too soon anyway, so now it's pretty much a mental block. Down he goes, down the program goes. I would even leave a 3Lz as the first one, and then simply do the rest of the FS as planned. It'd still net him high enough scores and hopefully in time, he can reintroduce the last quad. But as it is, it is just not working out and he's sacrificing everything when there is no need.

Are you sure that's so wise? Sometimes when training a quad lutz a skater develops an inconsistent triple lutz. Throws off their timing and everything. Makes it a risky opening jump, whether a planned triple or a quad.

I am betting Kolyada will be hoping to attempt the 4Z at Rostelecom, even if it's not consistent at all. Sometimes skaters are simply stubborn and will risk doing a jump they're highly unlikely to land.

Nevertheless, at least Kolyada is usually fully rotating the lutz and isn't popping it or anything so he'll get at least some points on it - more than a triple, at least. The key for him is not letting any initial lutz error significantly compromise the rest of the program, which is obviously something that happens.

vorravorra · Oct 9, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Are you sure that's so wise? Sometimes when training a quad lutz a skater develops an inconsistent triple lutz. Throws off their timing and everything. Makes it a risky opening jump, whether a planned triple or a quad.

I am betting Kolyada will be hoping to attempt the 4Z at Rostelecom, even if it's not consistent at all. Sometimes skaters are simply stubborn and will risk doing a jump they're highly unlikely to land.

Nevertheless, at least Kolyada is usually fully rotating the lutz and isn't popping it or anything so he'll get at least some points on it - more than a triple, at least. The key for him is not letting any initial lutz error significantly compromise the rest of the program, which is obviously something that happens.

Kolyada's triple lutz is fine, it's got easier if anything after he started learning the quad. I am pretty certain they wouldn't risk doing anything that would actually endanger his 3Lz, it's his best jump by far. One reason why they wouldn't go for a 3Lz as an opening jump in the FS is that he already has two of them, both in combinations and they'll have to change the entire program around to make it work.

Yatagarasu · Oct 9, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Are you sure that's so wise? Sometimes when training a quad lutz a skater develops an inconsistent triple lutz. Throws off their timing and everything. Makes it a risky opening jump, whether a planned triple or a quad.

I am betting Kolyada will be hoping to attempt the 4Z at Rostelecom, even if it's not consistent at all. Sometimes skaters are simply stubborn and will risk doing a jump they're highly unlikely to land.

Nevertheless, at least Kolyada is usually fully rotating the lutz and isn't popping it or anything so he'll get at least some points on it - more than a triple, at least. The key for him is not letting any initial lutz error significantly compromise the rest of the program, which is obviously something that happens.

His triple is quite fine, I checked before suggesting. I think the main problem here (and yes, I agree sometimes skaters are stubborn and it ends up working in the end too for some of them) is that when the 4Lz was introduced, it wasn't nearly ready. IIRC he was around or less than 50% at practices with it. So it's not exactly quite the same as being stubborn with a jump that otherwise works, or mostly works, in practice because though it has probably improved, it's been a season now and more that this is an issue.

I think the bold is the key and I agree. If he could do that and not implode then he should just keep trying and it'll slot in sooner or later. It is just that in the last few skates I've seen him he seems frustrated and in the last one (have you seen it?) he looked to me like he gave up at one point, which I don't remember seeing before. Now we both know resting jumps can be useful, so if he's at that point of frustration, I'd go for it. It may help long term more than hammering away at the 4Lz.

Of course, I'd love nothing more if he actually nailed the quad in front on the home crowd. It'd be an ideal mental boost. But that SP with the 3Lz was very good, so I still do think that's a viable option for him right now. Naturally, he's tight with time, so though I say it, I actually expect the same thing you do - he'll just keep on with the 4Lz.

beki · Oct 9, 2017

Aren't he and his coach under heavy pressure from the federation to include 4Lz, and wasn't that the reason it was introduced too early? Realistically we can't ignore such outside factors. It's not an ideal situation. I hope he succeeds with it.

Tutto · Oct 9, 2017

silverfoxes said:
Does Mikhail have some nice qualities to his skating, of course. But he's had 2 meltdowns at 2 senior Bs already. How is he going to handle a competition that actually matters? Anyway, can we please talk about someone else for a change? Alexey Erokhov won his 2nd JGP by a healthy margin although he didn't have the best skate today, either. But the difference is that he got it together after making his mistakes and fought for it...Mikhail just gives up.

And why can't we talk about a reigning Russian champion in Russian Men thread? :scratch2:

A little while back there was a lengthy discussion about Petrov I don't remember any objections from you - please do correct me if I am mistaken.

vorravorra said:
The point is, last season a fallen 4Lz did not kill the rest of the program. It has to be more than this. And does he really have a better chance of a good 4S? At this point it's far from clear. (And no, he can't get rid of both, not in the present reality.)

I am not sure I agree. A struggle with 4Lz resulted in popped 3As which might have not 'killed' the rest of the program but points wise was very very costly indeed, it cost him a silver at Euros and one place higher at Worlds (for which Americans should be forever grateful as they would not have 3 Oly spots then

) and now it cost him a gold at Finlandia

Tutto · Oct 9, 2017

beki said:
Aren't he and his coach under heavy pressure from the federation to include 4Lz, and wasn't that the reason it was introduced too early? Realistically we can't ignore such outside factors. It's not an ideal situation. I hope he succeeds with it.

Yes, RusFed's magic formula of 5 quads 'works' every time -alas they never learn

I think the problem is not in 4lz as such and the fact he already landed it in competition (and beautifully) means that it is now ready after 11 months of practising it. And I think if they kept his last season's tech we would probably see many a clean skates from Mika. The problem is that he hardly started coping with the last season content as the bar is raised again and dramatically - 2 quad SP and an extra (third quad) in LP, more jumps in a second half, difficult step sequence by Lambiel, it is just too much... I hope they make some changes before CoR

yyyskate · Oct 9, 2017

Sorry deleted, Nathan is not Russian :biggrin:

2017-18 State of Russian Men's skating

vorravorra

Artemisa

vorravorra

silverfoxes

moonkat

gmyers

Yatagarasu

vorravorra

silverfoxes

gmyers

vorravorra

Yatagarasu

vorravorra

CanadianSkaterGuy

vorravorra

Yatagarasu

beki

Tutto

Tutto

yyyskate

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