3Lz-3t/2A versus 2A-3t/3Lz?

TontoK said:

I have always been intrigued by this theoretical possibility.

If the second jump in a combo is counter-rotated to the first, you get combos with a lutz as the second jump.

I wonder if counter-rotated jump combos would count as a Zayak issue. If a skater performed a 3Z/3Z combination (opposite rotating the second jump) would it count as two lutzes under the Zayak rule?

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Why would it not?

However, that should be legal in SP... Interesting. I doubt anyone can do it, though. Maybe Miyahara could if her jumps weren't so tiny. Can't think of anyone else.

But actually, doing 2Lz combos counter-rotated might even be... possible? A double's really not something that should be super tough even the wrong direction, right? It would give more points than 2Los. Hm... Well, I don't know if any rule blocks counter-rotated 2Lz combos. Hopefully not.

Shayuki said:

Why would it not?

However, that should be legal in SP... Interesting. I doubt anyone can do it, though. Maybe Miyahara could if her jumps weren't so tiny. Can't think of anyone else.

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I'm pretty certain I've seen video of Rohene Ward doing opposite direction jumps. I think up to 2A. And, I'm not certain about this one... but I think opposite jumps used to be part of level testing. I don't know if that's still the case though. I'm pretty sure some historically significant skater used to skate one of her jumps in the opposite direction of all the others, but I can't remember who it was.

So, it's possible... again, in theory. I've never heard of it with triples, though.

Shayuki said:

Why would it not?

However, that should be legal in SP... Interesting. I doubt anyone can do it, though. Maybe Miyahara could if her jumps weren't so tiny. Can't think of anyone else.

But actually, doing 2Lz combos counter-rotated might even be... possible? A double's really not something that should be super tough even the wrong direction, right? It would give more points than 2Los. Hm... Well, I don't know if any rule blocks counter-rotated 2Lz combos. Hopefully not.

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It would be awesome if they could, totally show stopping.

TryMeLater said:

I would give 10% bonus for any -3T/3S combo

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yume said:

Is it possible? I think that maybe the skater have to be able to jump in both directions.

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No, to put a 3S at the end of a combination they would just need to land the first jump on the back inside edge of the "wrong" foot, same as a half loop. Before IJS we occasionally saw one-foot axel into triple salchow. (I'd like to see that again, by giving a bonus to the last jump in a combo. 1A+3S is certainly more difficult than 3S+2T and should be rewarded commensurately IMO.)

I have twice seen juvenile or intermediate skaters do 2S+2S with the first salchow landed on the other foot, once in 6.0 days and once under IJS. They weren't especially well done, but I appreciated the creativity.

To land a triple first jump on the wrong foot with enough control to put another triple afterward would be significantly more difficult. There would have to be some built-in significant point bonus to encourage elite skaters to learn that skill. And probably the first examples we'd see would not be pretty.

TontoK said:

If the second jump in a combo is counter-rotated to the first, you get combos with a lutz as the second jump.

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Again, not worth doing under the current scoring, but I would like to see bonuses added to jump combos in both directions as a way of pushing the envelope in a different direction.

I wonder if counter-rotated jump combos would count as a Zayak issue. If a skater performed a 3Z/3Z combination (opposite rotating the second jump) would it count as two lutzes under the Zayak rule?

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I'm sure it would.

Also, for all those fantasizing about 3Lz-3Lz combos, how about starting more realistic and anticipating triple something-reverse double lutz, or reverse double something-good direction triple lutz as more likely first uses of such an option, if and when rules change to encourage it.

TontoK said:

I wonder if counter-rotated jump combos would count as a Zayak issue. If a skater performed a 3Z/3Z combination (opposite rotating the second jump) would it count as two lutzes under the Zayak rule?

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I don't think that it would be a zayak as long as there is not a third 3lz. That would be a killer combo in SP.
Not a counter-rotated jump combo but Sakhanovich did a 3F-lo-3F. interesting combo.

gkelly said:

No, to put a 3S at the end of a combination they would just need to land the first jump on the back inside edge of the "wrong" foot, same as a half loop. Before IJS we occasionally saw one-foot axel into triple salchow. (I'd like to see that again, by giving a bonus to the last jump in a combo. 1A+3S is certainly more difficult than 3S+2T and should be rewarded commensurately IMO.)

I have twice seen juvenile or intermediate skaters do 2S+2S with the first salchow landed on the other foot, once in 6.0 days and once under IJS. They weren't especially well done, but I appreciated the creativity.

To land a triple first jump on the wrong foot with enough control to put another triple afterward would be significantly more difficult. There would have to be some built-in significant point bonus to encourage elite skaters to learn that skill. And probably the first examples we'd see would not be pretty.



Again, not worth doing under the current scoring, but I would like to see bonuses added to jump combos in both directions as a way of pushing the envelope in a different direction.



I'm sure it would.

Also, for all those fantasizing about 3Lz-3Lz combos, how about starting more realistic and anticipating triple something-reverse double lutz, or reverse double something-good direction triple lutz as more likely first uses of such an option, if and when rules change to encourage it.

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Jill Trenary used to do that one-foot-axel/3S combo. One time she did a 3F as the second jump, but I don't think it was entirely successful.

And I agree that interesting variations like that and the opposite jump combo are just not worth it under the current rules. That's a shame.

gkelly said:

No, to put a 3S at the end of a combination they would just need to land the first jump on the back inside edge of the "wrong" foot, same as a half loop. Before IJS we occasionally saw one-foot axel into triple salchow. (I'd like to see that again, by giving a bonus to the last jump in a combo. 1A+3S is certainly more difficult than 3S+2T and should be rewarded commensurately IMO.)

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Thanks. I'd like to see that too.

gkelly said:

I'm sure it would.

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Why? It doesn't count like a 3lo-3lo or a 3T-3T?

TontoK said:

And I agree that interesting variations like that and the opposite jump combo are just not worth it under the current rules. That's a shame.

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Although BV changes would do much more to encourage it, maybe variation in spin direction and placing jumps in more difficult orders could be part of the bullet points for the+5/-5 GOE system?

I know that Satoko is one of the few elite skaters who regularly does spins in both directions in competition, do these effect the GOE or spin level by current rules? I'd assumed yes but don't actually know.

yume said:

Thanks. I'd like to see that too.



Why? It doesn't count like a 3lo-3lo or a 3T-3T?

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Jill Trenary US Nats 1990. You can go about to the 1:30 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eTF9_sTuME

synteis said:

Although BV changes would do much more to encourage it, maybe variation in spin direction and placing jumps in more difficult orders could be part of the bullet points for the+5/-5 GOE system?

I know that Satoko is one of the few elite skaters who regularly does spins in both directions in competition, do these effect the GOE or spin level by current rules? I'd assumed yes but don't actually know.

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I think opposite direction spins count as a Level bullet. More dance teams seem to be incorporating the feature into their dance spins.

gkelly said:

I have twice seen juvenile or intermediate skaters do 2S+2S with the first salchow landed on the other foot, once in 6.0 days and once under IJS. They weren't especially well done, but I appreciated the creativity.

Also, for all those fantasizing about 3Lz-3Lz combos, how about starting more realistic and anticipating triple something-reverse double lutz, or reverse double something-good direction triple lutz as more likely first uses of such an option, if and when rules change to encourage it.

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In the year 2016 on ukrainian pre-juvenile competition I've seen a girl who did 1Lz+1Lz - first lutz rotated counter-clockwise and second one - clockwise. I served as a camera-operator on that competition and the tech panel first was a little shocked but then the referee told them that it's still a combo - unconventional, unusual, but still a combo.

yume said:

Why? It doesn't count like a 3lo-3lo or a 3T-3T?

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3Lo+3Lo and 3T+3T count as two triple loops or two triple toes in a freeskate. That would be one of the two allowed repeats.
In a short program, the only allowed repeat would be a combination with two of the same jumps. The combinations listed above would qualify.

I'd expect 3Lz+3Lz would be treated the same, should anyone ever be able to execute it. A legal jump in the short program (and the jump out of steps would need to be something other than 3Lz), and in a freeskate it would count as two allowed triple lutzes, both in combination, leaving one more repeated triple or quad allowed.

TontoK said:

I think opposite direction spins count as a Level bullet. More dance teams seem to be incorporating the feature into their dance spins.

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Yes. Spinning in both directions (in the same spin, stepping directly from one to the other with the change of foot) counts as a feature and adds to the base value of the element.

It's not a GOE bullet point, but if the skater does it especially well judges can reflect that in their GOEs, probably under the "good control throughout all phases" bullet point.

Jumping in both directions is not currently rewarded. There are no level features for jumps, so there would have to be a different way of keeping track of which jumps were done the other way and raising the base values, and again judges could reward it being done well in GOE.

But who knows when if ever the ISU will ever decide to build in a reward for that. And until they do, hardly any skaters will even play around with opposite-direction doubles and triples in practice. By the time anyone actually masters a triple-opposite triple lutz combination, the scoring system or whole sport could have changed significantly in lots of other ways as well.

TontoK said:

Jill Trenary US Nats 1990. You can go about to the 1:30 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eTF9_sTuME

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Thanks.

TontoK said:

Jill Trenary used to do that one-foot-axel/3S combo. One time she did a 3F as the second jump, but I don't think it was entirely successful.

And I agree that interesting variations like that and the opposite jump combo are just not worth it under the current rules. That's a shame.

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The problem is that one-foot axel is considered to be a listed jump. If it was an unlisted jump than you could see them done for the GOE.
Laurine Lecavelier did something similar last year

Shayuki said:

Dear lord. It's because of the 2A-3 combo that I'd want to lower the base value of a 2-3 combo. You really don't get this point? The only reason I'm even talking about it so broadly is because I think saying "only a triple after a 2A should have a penalty but not after other doubles" seems too arbitrary.

I'm not even considering other 2-3s, no one has any reason to do them. And they're not even that impressive because they could just 3-3 instead. It is not relevant.

See, a 2-3 has a triple jump combo jump and a 3-2 has a double jump combo jump. To me they're not even comparable. I never talked about a 3-2 in any of these comparisons. Doing a triple jump in a combo is completely different from doing a double jump in a combo. Please stick to scenarios where the combo jump is a triple for this.

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You're once again assuming that all ladies are capable of doing 3-3. That's not true for most ladies.

TryMeLater said:

You're once again assuming that all ladies are capable of doing 3-3. That's not true for most ladies.

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Most of top ladies have 3-3. At least 20 girls of the top 24 at last Worlds have a 3-3.

TryMeLater said:

You're once again assuming that all ladies are capable of doing 3-3. That's not true for most ladies.

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Uhh... What? I'm not assuming that at all. That's the entire point in what I'm saying.

If you can't do it, learn to do it or get a lower score. I don't like how you can get the same technical score doing something that's clearly less difficult.

If you can't 3-3, then do 3-2s instead and get a far lower score. I'd greatly prefer that over skaters unable to 3-3 being able to do 2 2A-3s and a 3-1Lo-3 and barely lose any points.

I don't see how a 3-2 is more difficult than a 2-3. Or a 3-3 harder than a 3-lo-3.
I would be more impressed by someone who land a 3lz-lo-3S, 3F-lo-3F, 2A-3T than someone who land a 3T-3T, 3S-3T, 3T-2T

QuadThrow said:

It is a different statement if someone goes for a 2A+3T.

The message is: My Lutz is not sure and high enough to go for a consistent 3Lz+3T.

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Lecavelier does 3Lz+3T and 2A+3T.

Shayuki said:

If you can't 3-3, then do 3-2s instead and get a far lower score.

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Or do 2-3 and get a score that is significantly less than 3-3 and slightly more than 3-2.

That would be fair. Making 2-3 illegal would be extremely stupid and unfair. Making 2-3 worth the same as 3-2 with the same jumps (as is currently the case by ISU rules) is slightly stupid and unfair.

I'd greatly prefer that over skaters unable to 3-3 being able to do 2 2A-3s and a 3-1Lo-3 and barely lose any points.

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Too bad for you. You can't make rules for what you want to see from the top 20 or so skaters in the world that will have nonsensical effects on all the hundreds of other senior- and junior-level skaters competing under the same rules. It's not all about you.

yume said:

I don't see how a 3-2 is more difficult than a 2-3.

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It is significantly more difficult. If the first jump has any kind of running edge at all, a high-level skater will usually have no difficulty executing a double toe from that edge. Some skaters can even do it from practically a standstill. The double toe may not be very good, but it can usually be executed successfully and not require GOE reductions even if it doesn't add anything positive to the quality.

(Double loop is more difficult because the skater needs to know before they land to leave the free leg in front and there's less room for error on the balance over the landing edge.)

Putting a triple toe on the landing requires real speed and flow on the landing of the first jump. You can't do a solo triple toe from a standstill or with hardly any speed. It's not any easier to do it with hardly any speed from a previous jump. So the landing of first jump needs to be good in order for the skater to get a successful triple taking off from the landing edge.

Yes, it is certainly easier to get a good landing edge on the landing of a double than a triple, which is why 2-3 is certainly easier than 3-3. But that doesn't mean it is as easy as a 3-2 combo. Not at all.

Now, if we're specifically talking about 2A+3T combination, the 2A is significantly more difficult than other doubles and makes it harder to maintain the running edge and body positioning needed to get a clean 3T off the landing.

If you look at what skaters were doing in the 1980s and 90s, 3T+3T, although fairly rare across the ladies' field as a whole, was much more common than 2A+3T. My understanding is that the 3T+3T has the advantage of both jumps having the same rhythm because they are the same jump, and also I think a good 3T approached with speed that is maintained ends up having a straighter landing than 2A, which tends to be curvier. And the second 3T benefits from the less curvy landing.

I think there's a good argument to be made that 2A+3T is somewhat more difficult to pull off than 3T+3T.

In fact, that's a difference between edge jumps and toe jumps in general. Which is why we also have never seen 3S+3T or 3Lo+3T very often. I suspect they're actually more difficult to pull off than 3F+3T.

However, the IJS just adds up the base values of the jumps; it doesn't account for that difference in rhythm and trajectory between edge jumps and toe jumps. I don't know if there would be any way to reflect that in the scoring, or whether triple-jumping skaters would agree that it would be appropriate.

However, I'm quite sure all would agree that 2T+3T is harder than 3T+2T, or 2Lo+3Lo vs. 2Lo+3Lo, and the same if you mixed double toe and triple loop or vice versa.

The reasons why skaters are choosing to do 2A+3T instead of 3T+3T in their freeskates have more to do with the way the well-balanced program rules affect their options for maximizing jump layout (Zayak rule, requirement to include an axel jump of some sort).

Certainly 3Lz+3T should be worth more than 2A+3T -- and it is. Now, should scoring of jump combinations reflect the difficulty of combining each two particular jumps in that order better than they do now. That would be ideal, if there could be a clean way to build in appropriate rewards for the difficulty of each possible combination, independent of what the skater is doing in the other jump passes of that program. Any suggestions?

Or a 3-3 harder than a 3-lo-3.

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I would be more impressed by someone who land a 3lz-lo-3S, 3F-lo-3F, 2A-3T than someone who land a 3T-3T, 3S-3T, 3T-2T

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Agreed, so would I. For one thing, because the ending jumps of those combinations (3S, 3F, 3T) add up to more difficulty than 3T, 3T, 2T, and also more variety which is not rewarded directly in the TES but judges might consider under the Composition component.

However, only one three-jump combination is allowed. So in order to get maximum difficulty and variety, maybe something like 3Lz+1Lo+3S, 3F+3Lo, and 2A+3T.