Worlds: Men's FS

shine said:

Not that this is related to skating, but some people do believe there is just a small amount of difference between taking a full course load and attending classes in person in a STEM program, and doing part-time distance ed in general arts studies.

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This is true. The in person part especially - and given Chen spent quite some time training on his own, without Raf at the boards. But let's just diplomatically say that education is laudable regardless of the extent to which it's being done.

1111bm said:

German commentator Weiss certainly felt that Nathan deserved his scores, both PCS and TES... pretty sure he doesn't have any interest in 'pushing the US' and he's also known to be very straightforward and candid with his opinion (he is german, after all )

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Except he apparently sees nothing good in Boyang's skating (not even that glorious 4 Lutz - sure dude)

Nathan was amazing though, that was a FS for the ages.

https://twitter.com/hopeIegacy/status/1109603737306365954 A hug just before the medals ceremony. I want to stress how far Yuzu and Chen go to be respectful of and compliment each other.
These are just my opinions:
-They truly feel respect and appreciation for each other's skills.
-They don't want ANY kind of drama other than the kind they can make on the ice by competing and putting it all into their programs.
-They don't just act like this towards each other, but to all the skaters they compete against. It's their mindset.

shine said:

Not that this is related to skating, but some people do believe there is just a small amount of difference between taking a full course load and attending classes in person in a STEM program, and doing part-time distance ed in general arts studies.

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Let each step to the music that he hears.

shine said:

Not that this is related to skating, but some people do believe there is just a small amount of difference between taking a full course load and attending classes in person in a STEM program, and doing part-time distance ed in general arts studies.

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Indeed glad you tried to clarify that though it may be an effort in futility.

Blades of Passion said:

He went for the same number of Quads as Chen, yes slightly less difficult ones and slightly messing up one of them (the < call was wrong - he was far enough around, it was just too low of a landing), but he had an additional Triple Axel in the program over Chen...which the scoring system did not properly credit. Chen only should have been slightly ahead technically and Hanyu's second mark should have easily exceeded the gap.

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Yes the planned BV difference between Chen's and Hanyu layout is really not that big - ~3 points. And it is due to the irrational rule that 4T-3A only gets 80% of BV as a sequence, which means 4T-3A has around the same mark as a 4T-3T (yet in reality no one would consider the two as the same level of difficulty). Hanyu may have simpler quads, but he also jumped one more 3A than Chen, so the difficulty level is the same.

When you break it all down - it was indeed the two 4S that costed Hanyu the gold. The 4S pop in the short costed him ~16 marks (9.7 points of BV, 3-4 points GOE & 2 points of PCS drop compared to CoF & CoR) and the botched 4S in LP costed him 8-9 marks (7 points of BV + GOE and 1-2 point of PCS drop compared to his PCS with cleaner skates).

Had he made those two 4S jumps, he may have overcome the 23 point difference even without a 4Lz or 4F. But unfortunately he made the mistakes so Silver it is. I bet Yuzu is going to go home and give his 4S a good beating.

I was again having a viewing party for the Mens FS and it's so much better to watch with friends and family.
Fan count (There's doubling up in this count as we were fans of more than one skater)
Yuzuru fans:4
Shoma fans:3
Boyang fans:3
Brezina fans:4
Kolyada fans:2
Jason fans:2
Drink and Snacks fans: 3

We prematurely cheered for Brezina's clean skate and then he fell.
We shouted because Boyang's scores wouldn't be enough to podium.
We were relieved for Kolyada surviving the skate and ending his season well.
We winced most of the time we watched Shoma because you could see on his face the whole program that he was winded and suffering. His interview afterwards....
We clutched whoever was nearest when we watched Yuzu and no matter how many times Yuzu does these amazing come back performances, it loses none of its shock and awe power.

This kind of dramatic sports event is something you can't find any where else, you are at the edge of your seat, wondering if your favorite will keep the lead or fall behind. So much human interest too.

Though Yuzu didn't win this time, we were all more than content with the way he performed and were amazed at Nathan Chen's calmness and precision in executing his program.

Thanks to all the skaters who skated, who give us such a show!

Blades of Passion said:

PCS scoring is such an unbelievable joke. Hanyu is less than 1 point ahead of Chen there, it's just worthless. The artistry essentially counts for nothing at all and Hanyu is on a different level with his use of limbs, refinement of positions, intent of movement, and outward expression. Not to mention his basic skating across the ice. The GOE's are not being properly applied either and also the base values themselves are inaccurate, as Hanyu's 4Toe+3Axel sequence should be worth much more points than it currently is.

Hanyu won this Long Program. He went for the same number of Quads as Chen, yes slightly less difficult ones and slightly messing up one of them (the < call was wrong - he was far enough around, it was just too low of a landing), but he had an additional Triple Axel in the program over Chen...which the scoring system did not properly credit. Chen only should have been slightly ahead technically and Hanyu's second mark should have easily exceeded the gap.

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No. You can see here (slow to 0.25 speed) that Hanyu lands short of a quarter... if you're being generous you can say he landed with a quarter turn, which under the current rules is considered UR. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhEyELMevyg#t=7m4s

While it's not as bad as a fall - it's actuallynot a slight mess up if you take a look at the deductions associated with that jumping pass. Some judges actually had the gall to give 0/-1 GOE on a jump that was leaning in the air, leaning forward/low on the landing, UR on the landing, scratching on the toepick on the landing, and forced to hit the ice with his free leg.

GOE bullets: (https://www.isu.org/docman-document...munications/17142-isu-communication-2168/file)
1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence) - yes
2) good take-off and landing - no
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in Jump combination) - no
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry - no (just simple mohawks)
5) very good body position from take-off to landing - no
6) element matches the music - sure, but it's not on any actual highlight in the music -- of course, it's a stupid GOE bullet and the argument can be made for any jump matching the musical structure

Even if we're being generous and saying the mohawks before the salchow count as bullet 4), and the element matched the music, the max GOE that jump could have gotten is 3. Really it should be 2 given it's not particularly difficult steps (or 1 if you don't consider it matching the music, which is debatable that it does). But sure, let's say GOE of 3 as max.

Then come the GOE Reductions:
-Touchdown with a free foot or hand: -1 to -2 (and this wasn't simply a pick or blade grazing the ice, -1... his left blade full on came down on the ice, so it should be a -2)
- Under-rotated sign: -2 to -3 (because it was more around 90-100 degrees under, than 170-179 degrees under, let's say -2)
- Poor air position: -1 for the lean
- Weak landing (bad position/wrong edge/scratching): -2 for the bad landing position and scratching/skidding on his toe pick

So, that's -7 GOE reduction. Even if a judge was being generous and ignoring the lean, and saying the touchdown of the free foot is a -1, the bad landing position, scratching on the toe pick, and under-rotation sign are all evident and should accordingly reduce the overall GOE on the element. So at MINIMUM a -5 reduction. And if a judge started with the element having +3 GOE (height/distance + musical + steps before), the final GOE on that should be -2, and if they started with a +2 GOE, the final GOE should be a -3. At least the first 3 judges with the -3s knew their stuff, and the -2's were generous but still not out of line.

Although who knows, maybe the 0/-1 judges thought it was sufficiently rotated and chose to ignore the < call!

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

6) element matches the music - sure, but it's not on any actual highlight in the music -- of course, it's a stupid GOE bullet and the argument can be made for any jump matching the musical structure.

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I gotta disagree here. This is the coolest bullet of all. Sometimes the music begs for a jump, like it is lifting you up off the ice by it's own will. Same with lifts in pairs and ice dance. But sometimes the jump seems irrelevant to what is going on musically and doesn't really add much to the program.

Maybe this is more subjective than things like height and distance, but that's why we have judges. :yes:

Mathman said:

I gotta disagree here. This is the coolest bullet of all. Sometimes the music begs for a jump, like it is lifting you up off the ice by it's own will. Same with lifts in pairs and ice dance. But sometimes the jump seems irrelevant to what is going on musically and doesn't really add much to the program.

Maybe this is more subjective than things like height and distance, but that's why we have judges. :yes:

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It also takes a lot of skill to jump at an exact moment, not whenever you feel ready. -Especially the jumps that LAND on the note, you need to take off at a moment before so you can land on the musical note exactly. -That's technical skill with artistic flair!

topic: where can I see the schedule for the gala?

Keegan was heartbreaking to watch, after the first mistakes you could see the defeat in his face, he was just going through the motions, when usually he’s so into this program.

Samarin should take lessons from Nathan, his free leg is always so crooked on everything that he does, even 3 turns, it’s really unappealing, especially since his limbs are so long.

Speaking of crooked, as always I couldn’t appreciate Jason’s skating because, you know… hands.

Also: Just as I don’t enjoy Alina’s charlotte spiral into jump, I also dislike Aymoz’s pose/move where he’s sticking his leg out in front of himself going into a 3Lz. I don’t care if it’s difficult, both manoeuvres just look awkward and laboured when done during a jump set-up, no matter how well executed.

LeeJiHye19 said:

topic: where can I see the schedule for the gala?

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Here you go
https://twitter.com/figureskatingm1/status/1109462061531062272?s=20

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

No. You can see here (slow to 0.25 speed) that Hanyu lands short of a quarter... if you're being generous you can say he landed with a quarter turn, which under the current rules is considered UR. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhEyELMevyg#t=7m4s

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You haven't picked a starting point and landing point that you are trying to argue and measure; therefore you are saying nothing worthwhile. His skate leaves the ice before it's directly facing the back board behind him and then he does land perpendicular to the board, which means he got slightly more than 1/4 around. Note how little he curves the entrance around and how his pre-rotation is quite minimal. For many other people that landing point would be short when considering the general direction he was heading before the jump began, but with Yuzu he starts the takeoff right after the 3-turn into the jump (at which point the skate going backwards is not yet directly lined up with the back board), and does not spin around on the toepick any extra amount.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

GOE bullets:

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He jumps with respectable amplitude, strong takeoff, and his air position was NOT poor as you say. The rotation was not perfect and he had to squat low on the landing and eventually put the free foot down very briefly, but there was still some outflow on that landing edge and he maintained a decent posture and control, fighting for it with finesse. Your bullet point assessments account for too little of what's happening in the jump and those bullet points are not the most accurate anyway (the rules themselves say they are guidelines). An overall score of -2 is very fair and accurate: +2 positive qualities and then -1 for imperfect rotation, -1 for the landing edge not being ideal, -1 for low landing position, -1 for the touchdown of the free foot (it wasn't a heavy touchdown, he had his weight mainly on the landing leg).

SNAKSuyun said:

A great competition! I'm glad Yuzuru got the home crowd one medal, at least. It does feel right that Yuzu would be the one to save them in the end, even if he didn't win, and even if I'm still crying over Kaori and Rika.

Nathan definitely deserved the win here - those jumps were awe-inspiring and even more so considering the amount of work and discipline that he must have put in to get himself here in the first place. I did pre-med for a while at an Ivy League school a few years ago and I can say that it wasn't easy. The program was well-constructed for him too, in mood if not in transitions and such - it gives him personality, and a grand one at that.

My favorite Yuzu program will always be Hope and Legacy, but I understood the glory of Origin today - it's one of those programs that I really think only Yuzuru can try to skate in the current field. It requires a level of musicality and SS, combined with pure technical prowess, that the other men simply do not have - some of the other more talented SS skaters could probably get through the steps, but then their jumps wouldn't have a similar degree of dramatic impact. I do agree with a lot of posters here and in the Chinese forums that Yuzu should have had a much higher PCS than Nathan, though - there's an overwhelming feeling of "what's the point" RE: all the super intricate and nuanced stuff he does when he's not really getting rewarded for it. I know even kuyashii won't let Yuzuru give up on those things - he's a stubborn artist like that, much like Sui/Han - and I'm glad as an observer of his art, but man I wish the judges would recognize him for all the labor he put into all of that.

Shoma has been growing on me - I'm often critical of his jumps but you can't deny that he really wants to perform and does everything that he can. There's a kind of stubborn energy in him that's not quite the same as Yuzu's but still very endearing. He's still a formidable skater, and I enjoy his skating more than I do Vincent's, probably because I don't get the vibe from Shoma that he takes his artistry for granted. It's a pity that he made his mistakes - I can understand that it's probably difficult to let him medal considering the skate he had. Still, though, I'm fine with giving him 89 PCS (maybe up to 91 or so if he was clean?)

Vincent... ugh... I still can't shake off the feeling that he's that model Asian kid who's just, always that, a model Asian kid. I feel like it's an unfair assessment of him but he's just so safe, orthodox and inoffensive that I struggle to really relate to him. Perhaps I just personally love sparks, sincerity, originality, and grace, and he isn't exceptional in any of those. Still, though, fantastic skate for him, and good for him to do well here and get a medal.

I'm glad that Boyang and Misha both came back and did well, although I do think Boyang's SP >> Boyang's FS this year in terms of fit and Misha's PCS is a little bit generous even though I like him as a performer. The Chinese forums have been quick to point out how Boyang's PCS is nearly always scored objectively (no one really thinks he deserves Jason-level PCS) when he skates clean and then plunges when he bombs, so... yeah. He doesn't really get the benefit of the doubt when he bombs like some other inconsistent skaters and that's pretty unfortunate.

I picked up Aymoz and Rizzo as new boys to watch during the SP and I definitely prefer Rizzo's SP over his FS. Aymoz's a gem and I want to see more of him!

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What’s wrong with being a model Asian kid?? I think his skating is sophisticated, beautiful spins, lines, soft knees. Hes polite, well spoken..smart...he’s skating style isn’t sloppy. I look forward to his skating!!! I didn’t think he was going to medal, I’m happy he did!!! Way to go Vincent and team Vincent!!!

1111bm said:

Keegan was heartbreaking to watch, after the first mistakes you could see the defeat in his face, he was just going through the motions, when usually he’s so into this program.

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Yeah it was sad about Keegan is he coming back next season? I heard he wasn't, but then I heard he was?

Speaking of crooked, as always I couldn’t appreciate Jason’s skating because, you know… hands.

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Are Jason's hands crooked? I never noticed!

Also: Just as I don’t enjoy Alina’s charlotte spiral into jump, I also dislike Aymoz’s pose/move where he’s sticking his leg out in front of himself going into a 3Lz. I don’t care if it’s difficult, both manoeuvres just look awkward and laboured when done during a jump set-up, no matter how well executed.

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What do you think of Majarov's Alina-like tribute as he goes for his 3A then. (Like, he does a sort of spiral thing, it's weird!)

anonymoose_au said:

Yeah it was sad about Keegan is he coming back next season? I heard he wasn't, but then I heard he was?



Are Jason's hands crooked? I never noticed!



What do you think of Majarov's Alina-like tribute as he goes for his 3A then. (Like, he does a sort of spiral thing, it's weird!)

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No, Jason’s hands aren’t crooked. The poster you responded to was negative about 4 of the 5 skaters mentioned and apparently doesn’t realize that Alina didn’t skate in the men’s FS portion of the competition.

Mathman said:

I gotta disagree here. This is the coolest bullet of all. Sometimes the music begs for a jump, like it is lifting you up off the ice by it's own will. Same with lifts in pairs and ice dance. But sometimes the jump seems irrelevant to what is going on musically and doesn't really add much to the program.

Maybe this is more subjective than things like height and distance, but that's why we have judges. :yes:

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Sorry, I think it's a stupid GOE bullet because of how people apply it. Sometimes if people like a skater they feel that any element can match the musical structure - like if it's on a loud bang in the music (eg Chan's second quad in POTO), that's obviously matching the music but if it's on a hush they'll be like "oh they're using the quiet part to punctuate the jump". Any judge can interpret a jump as matching musical structure or not and I feel a skater being awarded that GOE bullet depends moreso on how prolific they are rather than if a jumping pass actually matches the music. A judge can inflate their GOE using that as one of the bullets that contributed to the starting GOE. Skater X fell? Well -4 or -3 instead of -5 because one of the bullets achieved was musical structure.

It would be too cumbersome but I would love for judges to actually indicate which GOE bullets they are awarding and what they are deducting for when they dole out GOE. I would be very interested to know how the "element matches musical structure" bullet is being applied depending on the skater.

Not much to add here, except that Hanyu's 4T-3A made my jaw drop. His 3A's are just insane.

Blades of Passion said:

You haven't picked a starting point and landing point that you are trying to argue and measure; therefore you are saying nothing worthwhile. His skate leaves the ice before it's directly facing the back board behind him and then he does land perpendicular to the board, which means he got slightly more than 1/4 around. Note how little he curves the entrance around and how his pre-rotation is quite minimal. For many other people that landing point would be short when considering the general direction he was heading before the jump began, but with Yuzu he starts the takeoff right after the 3-turn into the jump (at which point the skate going backwards is not yet directly lined up with the back board), and does not spin around on the toepick any extra amount.

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. We all know you have a different definition of rotation than what the ISU is actually applying but the reality is, on his landing the foot was no less than a quarter rotation to go. It doesn't matter how minimal or not minimal his prerotation was. That is absolutely negligible. If you're talking about an alternate universe where your rules of rotation are applied, then sure, UR or sufficient rotation is whatever you want it to be. But it's not the case with the rules the skaters are *actually* being assessed with. Note that the rules have changed this year to a landing with a quarter rotation being now considered UR and the skater's landing has to be less than a quarter (whereas before a "quarter rotation or less" was sufficient). Nowhere in the rules does it state "if the skater prerotates minimally, then the landing is allowed to be a quarter rotation or more." Even the Eurosport guys mentioned during the program in real-time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrSmWJnFMa4#t=1m23s) and on slow-mo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrSmWJnFMa4#t=6m48s)

Blades of Passion said:

He jumps with respectable amplitude, strong takeoff, and his air position was NOT poor as you say. The rotation was not perfect and he had to squat low on the landing and eventually put the free foot down very briefly, but there was still some outflow on that landing edge and he maintained a decent posture and control, fighting for it with finesse. Your bullet point assessments account for too little of what's happening in the jump and those bullet points are not the most accurate anyway (the rules themselves say they are guidelines). An overall score of -2 is very fair and accurate: +2 positive qualities and then -1 for imperfect rotation, -1 for the landing edge not being ideal, -1 for low landing position, -1 for the touchdown of the free foot (it wasn't a heavy touchdown, he had his weight mainly on the landing leg).

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And I never said that his amplitude was poor (which, as you'll note in my previous post, I gave a PCS bullet for). I also never said his takeoff was poor (it was fine) but that GOE bullet is awarded for good takeoff AND landing, the latter of which was not achieved. And his air position was a noticeable lean - its a reason why the landing was so awkward. I said a judge might want to ignore it but it's pretty evident on replay. It certainly shouldn't be considered/awarded as "very good air position", which is something we saw moreso on his quad toes or quad loop. (Compare his axis of rotation in this very well-executed 4S at Rostelecom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXamRSEGxl0#t=6m20s to the one at Worlds, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrSmWJnFMa4#t=6m48s - if you see it in slow-motion especially around the 3rd and 4th rotation the lean he has).

He also did not maintain decent posture. He very clearly is hunched forward and leans toward the ice almost touching down his right hand. His free leg is wrapped around his landing knee and doesn't check out the way he normally does. He very evidently has to "save the jump". It's absolutely false to say this is a proper landing position and I'm surprised a stickler like you would attempt to aggrandize what is obviously a poor landing position.

Had he "maintained control" as you say, he wouldn't have needed to put his free foot down. And "Put his skate down briefly" (IMO it wasn't briefly, it was gliding on the ice, clearly used to stabilize himself, and was not just a quick touchdown) is still touching the free foot down no matter how you cut it. None of this trivializing an error "oh it's only a bit of a leg wrap"/"oh she got up from that fall quickly". Let's call an error for what it is.

He didn't maintain posture and control - he had to *regain* posture and control. Chen's 4F (which I'd have given a +2) also wasn't a good landing position and he needed to regain control on -- and even still it was a better landing position with better control than the 4S< which Yuzu definitely had to save (and did a good job to save it and not touch his hand down, at that).

At any rate at least you acknowledge that -2 was suitable. I think it should be -3 because the free foot coming down is more than a graze (and could be worse if you're taking into account the lean). Obviously the rules don't say what constitutes a -1 deduction or -2 deduction so we can agree to disagree. But seems like we both at least agree that the judges who gave 0 and -1 were out of line.

Also "fighting for it with finesse" is my new favourite phrase, so thank you for that.