Worlds: Men's FS

[tral]

I totally understand the hurt Yuzu’s fans felt but I don’t think you are better than the trained ISU judges at judging and evaluating their performances.

Then I am sure that when Shoma Uno's quad flip vs Nathan Chen's was considered equally well-rotated and deserving of high GOE, you were agreeing with the judges, too!

How to know people are grasping at straws and like to rely on confirmation bias and emotion: they'll say the others don't know as much as the judges do. When a 5 year old kid can train a dog more than the judges are.

 

[ancientpeas]

The technical mark and "second mark" were always meant to be close to the same maximum weight. If it's not working as such, then the system is inherently broken from what it was intended as.

I don't think the actual PCS factor needs to increased by that much though. Jumps are being overscored, both on the judges' own GOE and how much the extra GOE points are worth. Most elements are graded too high on the GOE by the judges, for that matter. Nathan's TES should have been 10 points lower, just from more accurate GOE marking. Then if the rules were altered so that bonus GOE for Triple/Quad jumps gets less points, it would go even lower.

I would say that the worse thing about PCS is that there is a ceiling on it where even if you are given perfect 10s for everything it still won't matter as much as being able to do messy quads and that saddens me. I watch skating for the performance. That includes the jumps but it is not solely about the jumps. I do not want to watch a jump drill. It is not interesting to me. I like to see a skater really get into their performance and reach out to the audience and draw us into their interpretation of the music even if that is not the way I would interpret the music. I like it when someone shows us their artistic vision and isn't just waving their arms around because they have been told to by a choreographer and most of the time you can really tell the difference between those who are trying and those who are not.

I'm not sure Nathan was the only one who benefited from liberal GOE calls. Some of Shoma's (who I love) were too high as well.

 

[ancientpeas]

I keep wanting to be your soulmate, Peas, but you sing Roxanne to me in the comp threads, and I yell Phantom lyrics at you in the comp threads. --You find Meryl and Charlie boring...aaaaaaaaaah....yet another point for which I might have to call you out for pistols at dawn! But you make good points. I love your post.

Aw..thanks.

You'll love Yuzuru's long to MR next season. I hear it is going to be epic! :thumbsup:

 

[Kelly]

Max seems to have his favorites ... and raising the maximum PCS score could be even more problematic.

Exactly. What Yuzuru's fans don't like is the judges put Nathan's PCS in the same league as Yuzuru's in this competition.
Even raising the maximum PCS score, I guess the outcome would be still the same.

 

[Tutto]

I am delighted for Misha. I think he really needed to show that he can still skate well. As I said elsewhere I think he might have been underscored a bit in PCS relative to the other men. I hope hat will help his confidence, though I'm concerned about the Russian fed pressure machine --it seems to be kind of a survival of the fittest and we've seen a lot of really talented Russian men go by the wayside as a result. Even to this day it still feels like the Russian men are measured up to Plushenko, Kulik and Yagudin rather than judged on their on merits.

:thumbsup: You do understand it so well. Believe or not but now the narrative is that Samarin is a fighter and Kolyada is the one who lost three spots (?!)
I predicted correctly that Samarin will not do well at Worlds because that pressure machine was working overtime ever since the Euros so he was 'sufficiently crushed' by the weight of expectations but RusFed doesn't seem to learn ever

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The technical mark and "second mark" were always meant to be close to the same maximum weight. If it's not working as such, then the system is inherently broken from what it was intended as.

I don't think the actual PCS factor needs to increased by that much though. Jumps are being overscored, both on the judges' own GOE and how much the extra GOE points are worth. Most elements are graded too high on the GOE by the judges, for that matter. Nathan's TES should have been 10 points lower, just from more accurate GOE marking. Then if the rules were altered so that bonus GOE for Triple/Quad jumps gets less points, it would go even lower.

Artistry in a program that's performed at it's best will always have a set mark. But technical ability in a program can always go up or down depending on how much base value a skater chooses to incorporate or not incorporate, and of course how well that difficulty is executed. So to say they should have roughly the same weight completely ignores the fact that skaters opt for varying levels of technical difficulty and have varying levels of technical execution. A skater could perform a program without any quads, and then perform the same program with 3 quads. Does that mean the PCS needs to adjust to reflect the 15 extra points of BV (and more with GOE, if done well) the skater will earn -- even if the rest of the program/performance was exactly the same Obviously, the PCS wouldn't fluctuate to accommodate this increase in difficulty.

Of the 12 skaters (out of 24) who had higher TES than PCS at Worlds 2019 in the FS... only 4 of them had a TES that was 10 points or higher more than their PCS (and of course, you had skaters like Brown whose PCS was 19 points higher than his TES, or Messing whose PCS was 13 points higher than his PCS). It's a silly argument to say that PCS needs to be out of 110 or 120 now, because 2 skaters out of 24 managed to surpass that (only 3 skaters in the World have surpassed 100 TES this season). It's certainly silly to base it on POTENTIAL TES - to me that just says, it's okay if you don't actually execute this potential TES, since your PCS can save you. If a skater doesn't achieve their potential PCS, their PCS isn't adversely affected to the same degree, so why should it be the other way around?

And it's been mentioned again and again: if PCS was brought higher in scale it would only create a greater discrepancy between skaters like Hanyu and Chen and the rest of the pack and "save" top-tier skaters who have poor performances, like Messing and Brown, which isn't exactly fair to the guys who are executing their content. Frankly, I'm thrilled that a skater like Jin or Zhou (whose artistry always gets raked over the coals by certain people) can make it onto the World podium by having much greater tech content, instead of waiting for the judges to give them PCS that allows for it. A judge can give you a low PCS score because you're not their fave, but base value is guaranteed points that have to be given to you, so you can still place well no matter what the judges think of you if you bring the technical heat (which, of course, everyone is welcome to learn themselves). Just because Brown isn't doing quads or seems close to getting one doesn't mean the PCS scale should be raised to give him more of a fighting chance.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Then I am sure that when Shoma Uno's quad flip vs Nathan Chen's was considered equally well-rotated and deserving of high GOE, you were agreeing with the judges, too!

How to know people are grasping at straws and like to rely on confirmation bias and emotion: they'll say the others don't know as much as the judges do. When a 5 year old kid can train a dog more than the judges are.

What are you even talking about? Both of Uno's quad flips were called under-rotated, whereas Chen's quad flip was called as clean.

As far as grasping at straws, for every comment that proclaims that skating fans don't know as much as the judges, there are a dozen comments by skating fans who proclaim that they know more than the judges. I mean, hey, whatever makes you sleep better at night! :sarcasm:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

His thoughts are very good.

"If someone is able to get 130 in the technical score, then it should be possible to get 130 on the PCS."

Of those you listed, this is probably Ambesi's most ludicrous thought -- rooted in obvious bias, and a great example as to why that guy is consistently ignorable.

In the Worlds 2019 FS, only 4 skaters got TES above 90 points - can you imagine how lopsided it would look if the PCS scores were out of 130? A skater getting 7.00's on PCS across the board would have earned 91 points of PCS! (Although, I'm sure Ambesi would have just loved to give 130 PCS to the "bestest" skater and <7.00/sub-90 PCS to everyone else. )

Only 3 guys have gotten over 100 TES under the current system, and only a handful of skaters in the field are likely to ever surpass 100 (let alone get close to 130) -- so a PCS scale out of 130, that extends to every skater in the field, is ridiculous. I mean, the average TES in the Worlds 2019 FS was barely above 80 (81.52 mean, 80.98 median).

And, furthermore to Ambesi's 130-PCS quip, what about competitions where Chen/Hanyu/Uno/Jin aren't competing -- does the PCS scale magically drop back down to being out of 100, since every skater who might hit 120-130 TES isn't competing, or does it remain out of 130? He's so absurd, it's comical.

 

[oatmella]

Wonder if he will also be arguing for 130 PCS for the ladies once Trusova is getting 100 TES.

Interesting that even with the new rules, fewer quads, and one less jumping pass - Nathan got 121.24 TES here vs. 127.62 at last year's Worlds.

 

[discode]

They literally just changed the rules to handicap skaters like Nathan and he still won by working on the quality of his elements and landings and cutting quads, so now people want to change the rules again? You can't keep changing the rules when people you don't like win. It's like fans suggesting the 4L needs to have more value than the 4lz and by not changing the value you are robbing skaters who do the 4L. Very convenient and not biased at all to suggest that one jump needs more value.

And I'd take Ambesi more seriously as a concerned neutral party about skating and scoring if he didn't have a "Yuzu is the bestest ever" pinned tweet on his twitter account.

And if PCS went up to as much as TES, everyone knows Nathan would probably just get even more PCS (which would make those people even more mad) and it's not going to stop him at all? All that would do is make the top skaters even more unbeatable.

 

[GS Forum Staff]

Please remember that there were more than two competitors in the Men's event. Do not derail or mar the thread with "back-and-forths" over Chen and Yuzuru, make snide remarks regarding their respective fans, etc. It was a wonderful event and it's not fair to the other competitors.

Further negative posts of this nature will be removed and will result in infractions.

Please see the Forum Guidelines.

 

[silver.blades]

I think there are two reasons that they keep tinkering with the rules.

1. Because the ISU needs something to do with its time.
2. It's an attempt to make sure that competitions are not dominated by a single skater so there is a competition, not a coronation.

There are tones of other, more cynical reasons that you can come up with, but IMO the above two are the most likely.

 

[gsk8]

As requested above, please keep this thread on topic.


If you want to debate or discuss the new scoring system, here is the thread for the 2018-19 season.