As I remember it, it was the SP in Lillehammer., and at the time, I had not seen much figure skating for quite a while. Anyway, Oksana did an imiitation of the 4 Act Swan Lake (both white and black swans) in, I think, 2-1/2 minutes. I smiled throughout. It was quite clever but it was not the Swan Lake one would see on the stage. She was darling as little waifs usually are, but she was not a ballerina. She was a cute figure skater with so much potential.emma said:I wonder what anyone thinkgs of Oskana Baiul's olympic programs...i remember a lot of people talking about how she uses ballet on ice...and how her exhibition program was designed to be a balletic performance on ice...
DORISPULASKI said:Sasha seems to be creating poses rather movements. She doesn't seem to worry as much about the stuff she does between the poses. When you take a lot of photos of Sasha during a program you will find that a lot of them are not very pretty-until you hit the one that is the pose she was focussing on. In jumps, Sasha seems to focus on how Sasha looks in the air and seems to scrape through what she needs to do to get into that pose.
But I'm probably crazy.
I received some complimentary tickets and attended a French opera a few weeks ago, according to the pre opera lecturer, Paris (not Vienna, not London, not Prague) was the opera capital in Mozart's time.Mathman said:PS. Emma, if "go to an opera" is on your list, the all-time best "first opera" to see is Mozart's Marriage of Figaro. In my wretchedly simple-minded and humble opinion, of course. I don't want to start any fights with the Italophiles!
Maya Plitseskaya was one of those ballerinas you had to see whenever you could. She was something else - not my favorite but the most original touch on standard ballets I have ever seen. Have you read her biography? Incredible!kyla2 said:Thanks for your responses Emma and Rgirl. It's always a pleasure "talking" to you both. O.k. Joe, do you remember Maia Plisetskaya, in my opinon the greatest ballerina of all time, with the possible exception of Pavlova (and I say possible). I have seen them all on tape and she is the definitve Swan as far as I am concerned, and in the opinion of many others. She was something apart from every other ballerina I have ever seen and I have seen many. For me, there is Maia and then everyone else. But I do agree that so much of this is subjective; one person's champagne is another person's milk (or poison). Having said that, sometimes I think a performance transcends the individual preference of the observer. For example, Oksana's Swan had moments of "ballet" and it was breathtaking because it was done on the ICE, Michelle's Lyra Angelica, Salome, Taj Mahal, Johnny Weir and everything John Curry ever did. Do Sasha's performances rise to that level all the time? No, but she has left me amazed at the beauty of her line, extension and grace. I look past her flawed landings because her position and rotation in the air is so lovely. Yes, I wish she was a less flawed skater, but I will always be grateful for what I get from her because her skating is so unique.
DORISPULASKI said:Rgirl, I liked your comparison of Van Gogh and Gauguin. And there is a figure skating connection. Toller Cranston, also a painter, skated an exhibition to 'Vincent' also known as 'Starry, starry night.' It was an interesting 3 banger art appreciation course, combining painting, dance, and of course music. If someone wants to see it, I'd be glad to upload a link.
As to Sasha. I'm not the expert. I find her jumps so annoying that it's hard for me to get into the programs. In fact, I find it absolutely impossible to tell her flip from her lutz. In each case, going into the jump her edges wobble from inside to outside. As a result perhaps of not going up on the same edge in a consistent way, when she lands, the edge position is not consistent, and she may two foot, splat or otherwise have trouble. If someone would like to see a clip I made of Sasha's flip vs. lutz, which I call Sasha Guessing Game, see if you can tell which jump is which.
I thought Sasha's Swan Lake (Tarasova) version was her best choreographed, and I loved the costume that revealed this black swan/white swan shift when she was spinning.
I don't think of Sasha as a ballerina. I think of her as a model, and that's where the trouble comes. Sasha seems to be creating poses rather than movements. She doesn't seem to worry as much about the stuff she does between the poses. When you take a lot of photos of Sasha during a program you will find that a lot of them are not very pretty-until you hit the one that is the pose she was focussing on. In jumps, Sasha seems to focus on how Sasha looks in the air and seems to scrape through what she needs to do to get into that pose.
But I'm probably crazy.
GEZANDO: I absolutely don't think it was funny for Gauguin to spread syphilis to the young teenage girls. I was speculating maybe the painting gods were punishing Paul Gauguin for that and chose to bless V Gough instead. (I prefer Van Gough to Gauguin) I put the smiles after Van Gough's more substances, b/c I thought the baseball players are not the only ones who know how to use substances to get an edge. Who knows maybe Vicent's heightened creativity was secondary to the activation of his dopamine and GABA pathways (reward / pleasure final common pathway for cocaine, amphetamines, heroin etc) in the ventral tegmental area of his brain.Rgirl said:First of all, ITA that Ota's arms are truly breathtaking. However, although I don't see what's so funny about Gauguin spreading syphylis to teenage girls and that maybe Van Gogh had "more help from more substances," to each her own.
GEZANDO: OK, was I disagreeing with you on that?Rgirl said:Does any of this have to do with figure skating? Just the point that figure skating has a strong element of subjectivity to it, whether you call it art, presentation, or PCS scores. Of course figure skating is a sport, but when I saw Oksana Baiul do an exhibition performance if "The Swan" with COI shortly after the Olympics--and luckily for me from an on ice seat, mid-ice--no one can tell me that I wasn't witnessing and being transported by the performance of an artist.
GEZANDO: Bipolar disorder is an illness just like any other illness that have biological (genetic) component. I am just stating that some experts think he had bipolar disoder. He might or might not. Definitely substance abuse and neurosyphilis can also present with mood swings. Anyway, if he had bipolar disorder, more credit to him for creating paintings in the midst of sufferings.Rgirl said:Vincent couldn't help his bipolar disorder...
GEZANDO: Sorry, AIP is acute intermittent poryphyria, a disorder of heme biosynthesis, characterized by a triad of colicky abdominal pain, polyneuropathy, and psychosis. So whether he cut off his ear b/c of psychosis related to AIP, or substances or bipolar, we do not know. IMO people who suffer from mental illness / psychiatric problems need compassion and vigorous research and better treatment. IMO poeple who tried to insult others by hinting that they have "psychiatric" problems are :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:Rgirl said:I don't know what you mean by AIP?
Not only do ITA, I dig it! Love the description of the Denise Bielmann style as being feminine power with the accent on feminine.Joesitz said:Rgirl - I've always thought of Sasha as trying too hard to be a balerina on ice and it came across as ballet by the numbers. JMO. However, in Moscow, she skated more to the feel of the music than showing off her flexibility. I liked that.
Your point about her working more as a power skater, is well taken. I think I would like sasha to drop that "porcelain" quality and get into the Denise Bielman style which I always thought of being "feminine" power with the accent on feminine.
I really think Sasha has a crack at the gold in the Olys but she is up against THE power skater of recent times.
Joe
I keep meaninig to thank you, even though you're the sex that's not perfect (see your Joe E. Brown quote--greatest last line in a movie ever), as well as Hockeyfan, for explaining that incredibly crucial bit of information about the placements. I kept wondering why Dick Button would say at certain World championships how "Anythng can happen! The scoring is so mathemetically complex nobody knows right now!" just before the last skater's scores were about to be announced and it looked like it would easily either be A, B, C, or B, A, C. For example, 1996, when it ended up Todd Eldredge 1st; Ilia Kulik 2nd; and Rudi Galindo 3rd, with Kulik skating last, and very well, Uncle Dick was just beside himself with "Oh, the mathematics of it all! You know, if Kulik knocks Todd to second, that could mean Galindo would be off the podium and Stojko would take the bronze! Oh, it's all too much!" I remember thinking, "What am I missing?" If Ilia wins, then it's Todd second and Rudi third, right?"Mathman said:I want to add one more thing about the "OBO" system.
Some folks have complained that the New Judging System is too complicated for casual fans relate to. I disagree. The idea that you get so many points for a triple toe loop, a few more for a triple Lutz because it is harder, and if you fall that's a one point deduction -- any sports fan can understand that perfectly well.
The OBO ("one by one") system, on the other hand --I never did get the hang of it. After the marks are given (5.5, 5.7 or whatever), then each skater's scores are compared "one by one" to each of the others'. On the basis of this comparison, you are awarded so many "wins" and so many "loses." But, as I understand it, not all the wins are weighted equally heavily -- it depends on who the other people beat who you got a win over.
After the 2002 Olympics it was widely reported and believed that if American judge Joe Inman had place Michelle second and Irina third, instead of the other way around, then Michelle would have won the 2002 Olympic gold medal over Sarah. This was based on the (almost universal, as it seemed) confusion between the OBO system used for international competitions and the "majority of ordinals" system, which was in place, for instance, for U.S. nationals.
The majority of ordinals system has the virtue that it is easy to understand and apply, but it can result in some strange final placements for skaters in the middle ranges.
Anyway, it wasn't until two years after the event that one of our expert GS posters (Hockeyfan, IIRC) set me straight on that peculiarity of OBO judging.
Mathman
Rgirl said:Originally Posted by Rgirl
Sasha
10 First
8 Second
6 Third
5 Fourth
1 Fifth
Well, duh. As I said in my post, I was just trying to point out that Sasha has an overall very consistent record and that people, most of whom tend to dislike Sasha and/or her skating have made entirely too big a deal out of her lack of perfect seven triple programs, which she did achieve at this year's Worlds. But as District Attorney, here's my closing statement on the subject:Mathman said:Obviously she's never won a World gold medal, but what I found interesting in looking at these results was the consistency of this skater who has gained such a record for inconsistency.
To me, it is not inconsistency from one event to another, it is the consistent "inconsistency" within each program that has Sasha's critics and fans alike tearing their hair. Sasha "consistently" goes out and hits four or five elements in a row with such textbook perfection that I start saying to myself, wow, how can anyone ever beat this girl? Then, saddly but dependably, on the next jump she falls and gives it all back.
Mathman, you imperfect gender, you. You know ding dang well I never said Michelle's skating sucked. And if you ever say that again, I'm getting Stan Marsh's gay dog (as played by George Clooney) to come over and lick you till the next solar eclipse.Mathman said:Of course, Rgirl's next monster analysis was all about why Michelle's skating sucked up until 2003. Oh, well, nobody's perfect (to quote Joe E. Brown).
Rgirl said:I keep meaninig to thank you, even though you're the sex that's not perfect (see your Joe E. Brown quote--greatest last line in a movie ever), as well as Hockeyfan, for explaining that incredibly crucial bit of information about the placements. I kept wondering why Dick Button would say at certain World championships how "Anythng can happen! The scoring is so mathemetically correct nobody knows right now!" just before the last skater's scores were about to be announced and it looked like it would easily either be A, B, C, or B, A, C. For example, 1996, when it ended up Todd Eldredge 1st; Ilia Kulik 2nd; and Rudi Galindo 3rd, with Kulik skating last, and very well, Uncle Dick was just beside himself with "Oh, the mathematics of it all! You know, if Kulik knocks Todd to second, that could mean Galindo would be off the podium and Stojko would take the bronze! Oh, it's all too much!" I remember thinking, "What am I missing?" If Ilia wins, then it's Todd second and Rudi third, right?"
But now, finally, with the perfect help of the imperfect Mathman and either the perfect or not Hockeyfan (don't know your gender, HF), almost 10 years later, I GET IT!
I GET IT! I GET IT! I GET IT!
Okay, I don't get what Joe E. Brown got from Jack Lemmon, but I don't think I'd want that.
Well, so much for the OBO is easier to understand reasoning. The OBO pretends it's easier to understand than the NJS, but the OBO's a liar!
Oh, hamburgers, as Butters would say, now I'm gonna get grounded!
Rgirl
rgirl said:Vincent couldnt help his bipolar
I speculate that athletes like Tara and Horry must be blessed with amazing amygdala since they seem to be fearless in controlling their anxieties. OTOH athletes who are known be mentally fragile, may not be as fortunate as Tara re: of their amgydala function
Yes, Horry drained a three pointer at the buzzer game #5 overtime. Tara Lipinski has a lot of mental toughness.Red Dog said:Horry as in Robert Horry, the NBA player?
Tara as in Tara Lipinski?
gezando said:Yes, he drained a three pointer at the buzzer
Yes
You mean Reggie Miller?Red Dog said:OK, then.
Don't mean to get off topic here, but wasn't that something- that three-pointer. If you follow the NBA like I do, it's amazing that he's been doing this so long. Reminds me of another ball player from Indiana who just retired... :yes: