2012 GPF Free Dance FD

[dorispulaski]

I'm sure Tessa could manage it, but it's a relatively dangerous move. F&S had some scary falls doing a reverse lift. I'm not a doctor, and I'd like one to tell me whether a lot of heavy lifting would be hard on Tessa's legs or not. I really don't know.

 

[ice coverage]

... I still think that V/M should consider doing the occasional reverse lift. It would stand out and it should work consider their respective sizes. ...

Just my two cents, but am I the only one who thinks that reverse lifts "stand out" in an undesirable, gimmicky way?
Call me old-fashioned , but not my cup of tea for a competitive program.
For an exhibition program, I would try to be more open-minded, but still not my thing really. :no:

(In the case of Virtue/Moir, Doris makes a good point re potential risk in light of her leg issues in the past.)

 

[dorispulaski]

The Spanish couple, Hurtado & Dias, have some cool reverse lifts, but I always found A&P's reverse lifts ugly & F&S's downright frightening. Faiella dropped Scali pretty much on his head. The Kerrs-neither way.

 

[Whitneyskates]

Just my two cents, but am I the only one who thinks that reverse lifts "stand out" in an undesirable, gimmicky way?

You're not the only one. I hated it when A/P did it and hated when the Kerrs did it.

And as far as recycled elements go, D/W only have one that I can tell, the DF lift. And they're not the only ones that do that. W/P have been using the same lifts for about 6 seasons now and several other dance teams often use the same lifts and spins.

 

[Buttercup]

Just my two cents, but am I the only one who thinks that reverse lifts "stand out" in an undesirable, gimmicky way?
Call me old-fashioned , but not my cup of tea for a competitive program.
For an exhibition program, I would try to be more open-minded, but still not my thing really. :no:

(In the case of Virtue/Moir, Doris makes a good point re potential risk in light of her leg issues in the past.)

The Spanish couple, Hurtado & Dias, have some cool reverse lifts, but I always found A&P's reverse lifts ugly & F&S's downright frightening. Faiella dropped Scali pretty much on his head. The Kerrs-neither way.

I think it depends on the lift and the execution. As Doris noted, Hurtado/Diaz have been able to make it work, and unlike most of the others, their reverse lifts are a scoring element, and they have at times been marked quite well for them. And rightly so - I remember the first time I saw what they were doing at 2011 Euros, and it was definitely a wow moment and a well-executed lift. A/P had good ones and not so good ones. This non-scoring lift from Faiella/Scali worked for me because it echoes the first lift in the program and I thought that tied in really well to the concept of the program. Also, Massimo was at no point in danger of being dropped on that one

OT 1: taken together, F/S's OD/FD in the Olympic season were high on my list of favorites. OT2: Sara Hurtado is a superstar and Adria Diaz is no slouch, either. If their tech ever catches up to their performance ability (remember, they had a fairly late start in ice dance), they'll go far.

Whether Tessa can do reverse lifts of any sort, with her past leg issues, is a question I hadn't considered. I think it might depend on weight distribution and the balance point.

 

[Olympia]

It didn't bother me when Annissina and Piezerat did reverse lifts for some reason, but normally I don't go for it. It certainly can be gimmicky. Didn't A/P do that lift in their Romeo and Juliet, and didn't they use the Prokofiev music? I think the quality of their characters, where Romeo and Juliet almost take turns being the leader in the relationship (think of the death scene in the original play), might be what made me accept the move with this couple. Also, Marina had a particular kind of forcefulness that is compatible with such a move, whereas Gwendal could play a more--hmmm, not passive, but maybe contemplative persona. It's almost as if they interchange yin and yang. In any case, I don't see this kind of move working for Tessa and Scott. And, as Doris points out, it might make trouble for her glass legs. We want her to remain active and healthy as long as possible so we can enjoy their skating for years to come!

I'm thinking back to the first couple I ever saw using a reverse lift, and I think (but can't swear on it) that it was Klimova/Ponomarenko in a professional program. Pretty much anything they did worked for me! As far as I was concerned, they just about had magical powers on the ice.

 

[Mathman]

I believe that the story of Bobrova & Soloviev's program is that he is mentally ill, lost in a world of his own. She attempts to enter his world to help cure him. He recovers, but she remains locked in that world of madness.

Isn't there an ISU rule that says dances have to be upbeat and cheerful?

 

[dorispulaski]

That was last year's fad. It's still on the books, but this year we have:

Dying Don Jose Carmen
Dying Carmen Carmen
Dying Esmeralda & Quasimodo
Alternately Crazy Russians
Dying Patrick Swayze character Russians
Statue coming to life (and then turning to stone again) Canadians
zombies coming to life and going back to the grave Germans
The Shibutanis doing very young geisha and her boyfriend-I'm not sure whether this is upbeat or not
ANd P&B who are doing disco Rolling Stones & and the only truly upbeat FD of the bunch.

The other rule is that the story, if there is one, is supposed to be immediately understandable by the audience. Some of the above are not all that clear.

 

[rosacotton]

Dying Don Jose Carmen
Dying Carmen Carmen
Dying Esmeralda & Quasimodo
Dying Patrick Swayze character Russians

Seems like only dying Romeo and Juliet is missing from the list.

The other rule is that the story, if there is one, is supposed to be immediately understandable by the audience. Some of the above are not all that clear.

You got that right!

 

[let`s talk]

In Pairs the ISU Rules still (thanks god) speak about the Man and the Lady in lifts. While in Ice dancing it's just "one of the partners", i.e. anyone can lift anyone. Why in Ice Daning and not in Pairs too I wonder. They were afraid that in this case the Pairs will end up in switching roles completely, like a big-she with a small-he doing lift stuff, death spirals. etc.? The reverse lift is odd. For me it's always been just a stunt, some cheap trick to get exra wows from crowds, performed mainly by those who couldn't get enough wows by the traditional way. The same I can say about Natalie's idea to show her naked belly in SD, even if we all know that nudity is not allowed. Otherwise skaters can skate in bikini.

Speaking about Voir's last lift in FD, the one that provote people to use explicit language. I am curious how it managed to be counted as legal is she is sitting on his shoulders.

 

[tulosai]

In Pairs the ISU Rules still (thanks god) speak about the Man and the Lady in lifts. While in Ice dancing it's just "one of the partners", i.e. anyone can lift anyone. Why in Ice Daning and not in Pairs too I wonder. They were afraid that in this case the Pairs will end up in switching roles completely, like a big-she with a small-he doing lift stuff, death spirals. etc.? The reverse lift is odd. For me it's always been just a stunt, some cheap trick to get exra wows from crowds, performed mainly by those who couldn't get enough wows by the traditional way. The same I can say about Natalie's idea to show her naked belly in SD, even if we all know that nudity is not allowed. Otherwise skaters can skate in bikini.

Speaking about Voir's last lift in FD, the one that provote people to use explicit language. I am curious how it managed to be counted as legal is she is sitting on his shoulders.

It is because in pairs the lady goes over the man's head entirely whereas in ice dance that is still illegal. The vast majority of women are not physically capable of lifting the weight of any other adult person (woman man big small) over their head physiologically.

 

[Rhonepony]

And many of us scratch our heads about the scores that D/W get with their recycled, unoriginal programs that have clean technique but their attempts to tell a love story doesn't work IMO. I admire them & how hard working them are but I find it hard sometimes to see beyond the frantic skating & forced expressions on their faces. I disagree with posters about V/M lifts - they are always original, extremely difficult & thus, take much longer to master because they haven't been practising them for several seasons.

In this years FD, D/W are using new lifts except for the DF split lift. Also the step sequences look original. The feel of the program is very intense and passionate, something that is done well by them, but quite different from the tango or DF. I too, find the expression very impressive and natural, not forced at all. Of course, this kind of thing is a matter of opinion. Based on this, I don't think the ND is at all unoriginal or recycled.

 

[dorispulaski]

Welcome to Golden Skate, Rhonepony!

 

[dorispulaski]

Speaking about Voir's last lift in FD, the one that provote people to use explicit language. I am curious how it managed to be counted as legal is she is sitting on his shoulders.

Apparently, Tessa hasn't been counted as sitting on Scott's shoulders by 3 different tech panels this year-if she had been, the lift would be an illegal element, I think?
Here's a bookmark to the lift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NTIYowCzhVA#t=258s

Here's the wording on Illegal lifts for the Tech Panel handbook:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-204786-222009-173276-0-file,00.pdf

The following movementsand/or poses during the lift are illegal:

Lifting hand(s) of the lifting partner higher than his head*;

Lying or sitting on the partner’s head;

Sitting or standing on the partner’s shoulder, back;

Lifting partner swinging the lifted partner around by holding the skate(s)/boot(s) or leg(s) only
with fully extended arm(s) or by holding the hand(s) with full arm extension by both partners;

Lifted partner in upside down split pose (with sustained angle between thighs more than 45
degrees)**;
* It is not considered as an Illegal Lift Movement/Pose if:
• the point of contact of the lifting hand/arm of the lifting partner with any part of the body of
the lifted partner is not sustained higher than the lifting partner’s head;
• the lifting hand/arm which is used for support or balancing only or which touches any part
of the body of the lifted partner is not sustained by the lifting partner higher than his head
for more than 2 seconds.
** A brief movement through an upside down split pose (with any angle between thighs) will be
permitted if it is not established (sustained) or if it is used only to change pose.

The penalty is a -2.00 deduction, and level 0 or 1 for the lift.

The process for identifying an illegal lift is:

Technical Specialist identifies
Technical Controller authorizes or corrects and deducts If there is an illegal movement during the execution of any element, the deduction for an illegal movement will apply and the element will receive Level 1 if the requirements for at least Level 1 are fulfilled. Otherwise the element will be called No Level. However, if both
Technical Specialists disagree with a correction on illegal elements asked for by the Technical Controller, the initial decision of the Technical Specialist and Assistant Technical Specialist stands.

Perhaps the choreographic lift is also borderline, since Scott's hands end up higher than his head sometimes?

In any case, 3 panels are OK with these 2 lifts.

 

[rvi5]

Perhaps the key interpreted words are "Sitting or standing on the partners shoulders, back"
In this case, Tessa is on/over Scott's shoulders, chest. She is not technically sitting on his shoulders, since only her legs are hooked over the shoulders. If they had approached this lift from the back, her rear end would be on/over his back with the legs hooked over the shoulders.

 

[dorispulaski]

After checking the requirements, I am more concerned about Scott's hands in the choreographic lift. When he leans back, his hands are higher than his head.

The other lift is risky. Any small slip, and Tessa will be sitting on Scott's shoulders or head, but I think the panels were right, and it is fine.

 

[let`s talk]

It is because in pairs the lady goes over the man's head entirely whereas in ice dance that is still illegal. The vast majority of women are not physically capable of lifting the weight of any other adult person (woman man big small) over their head physiologically.

There are enough super big women in this world who can lift very small men. I just don't want to see it in figure skating. I think it was quite obvious that I was mocking the whole idea of a reverse lift. Why did they even need to introduce it in Ice Dancing in the first place? It would be better if they sticked with the Lady and the Man, like in Pairs.

After checking the requirements, I am more concerned about Scott's hands in the choreographic lift. When he leans back, his hands are higher than his head.

The other lift is risky. Any small slip, and Tessa will be sitting on Scott's shoulders or head, but I think the panels were right, and it is fine.

Tessa is sitting on his shoulders, not just on/over his shoulders. And his both hands are higher than his head. If it were someone else, especially some junior team, they would likey get a deduction:
http://visualrian.ru/ru/images/zooms/RIAN_1285325.jpg

 

[dorispulaski]

There are enough super big women in this world who can lift very small men. I just don't want to see it in figure skating. I think it was quite obvious that I was mocking the whole idea of a reverse lift. Why did they even need to introduce it in Ice Dancing in the first place? It would be better if they sticked with the Lady and the Man, like in Pairs.
Tessa is sitting on his shoulders, not just on/over his shoulders. And his both hands are higher than his head. If it were someone else, especially some junior team, they would likey get a deduction:
http://visualrian.ru/ru/images/zooms/RIAN_1285325.jpg

I have to agree with you-his hands are clearly over his head, and by the rules, the lift should have been judged an illegal element, if his hands were there over 2 seconds. And it looks to me like she was sitting on his shoulders. Which event was this photo from?

I would expect some team (not Zoueva obviously, to bring this up, because the total free dance deduction for an illegal lift on a rotational lift, drops the lift to, at best, level 1
with a -2 deduction. At GPF, it earned 5.43. A level one lift is worth 1.50 and a level 4 is worth 4.00, for a drop of 2.5 points, a drop of 4.5 points with the penalty. .

 

[let`s talk]

I have to agree with you-his hands are clearly over his head, and by the rules, the lift should have been judged an illegal element, if his hands were there over 2 seconds. And it looks to me like she was sitting on his shoulders. Which event was this photo from?

I would expect some team (not Zoueva obviously, to bring this up, because the total free dance deduction for an illegal lift on a combination lift, drops the lift to at best level 1
with a -2 deduction. At GPF, it earned 5.43. A level one lift is worth 1.50 and a level 4 is worth 4.00, for a drop of 2.5 points, -4.5 with the penalty. .

The photo is from Cup of Russia. I think I posted it somewhere on CoR FD thread when CoR was taking place.

 

[dorispulaski]

BTW, I'm not that fond of reverse lifts. The first I remember were A&P's but I suspect there were some before that.

At COR, I see why no one bothered. I&K, who placed second, were over 10 points behind in the FD alone, and it would not have made a difference.

If it were at the GPF, again, P&B were too far behind to benefit, either, but if D&W had a different coach, that coach might have pointed it out...