2013 US Nationals Senior Ladies SP
- Thread starter samson
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Forgive me but what's USAG?
Are you referring to USFS?
Judging by ""Gymfan" it's probably United States Artistic Gymnastics? Or USA Gymnastics? Commonly used acronym for gymnastics.
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- Dec 9, 2012
Ugh, you're supposed to take off with around half pre-rotation on a loop. If you don't it's a take-off flaw, if you look at the skaters who have very consistent and high quality triple loops like Mao Asada she does pre rotate by about half a turn. On the other hand if you look at Kim Yu-Na's loop which has been proven inconsistent, she takes off with a quarter. So no, unless it's a toe jump you can't say that pre rotation is grounds for a downgrade unless it's an insanely cheated salchow.
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- Sep 14, 2008
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Well pre-rotation matters, in that you need to look at where the jump actually left the ice.
The << call for Zhang's second 3Loop was not the worst call ever, but it does feel unfair. A << really means 2 turns or less in the air. The very top of her toepick maybe touched back down on the ice right at the 2 turn mark, but to me it's unfair to call a jump as landed right at that point. Why? Because most people teach that proper form for a jump dictates the toes being pointed in the air, pointed downward. A skater's toepick is therefore going to reach the ice slightly earlier if they point their toes in a jump, in comparison to not pointing them.
I feel that Zhang's second 3Loop was just enough past 2 turns in the air at the point where it should be considered landed, which means a < call. Similarly, that first 3Loop should not have gotten a < call. Even worse, though, is the -GOE she got for the jump. It's SO dumb how the rules dictated that underrotated jumps should receive -GOE. If a skater cleanly lands an underrotated Triple, they've done more than a double. Or even if the skater does a << Triple, they still shouldn't get PENALIZED for it in comparison to doing just a double. This is one of the several ways in which CoP makes absolutely no sense mathematically. And it creates stupid competition results like this.
The << call for Zhang's second 3Loop was not the worst call ever, but it does feel unfair. A << really means 2 turns or less in the air. The very top of her toepick maybe touched back down on the ice right at the 2 turn mark, but to me it's unfair to call a jump as landed right at that point. Why? Because most people teach that proper form for a jump dictates the toes being pointed in the air, pointed downward. A skater's toepick is therefore going to reach the ice slightly earlier if they point their toes in a jump, in comparison to not pointing them.
I feel that Zhang's second 3Loop was just enough past 2 turns in the air at the point where it should be considered landed, which means a < call. Similarly, that first 3Loop should not have gotten a < call. Even worse, though, is the -GOE she got for the jump. It's SO dumb how the rules dictated that underrotated jumps should receive -GOE. If a skater cleanly lands an underrotated Triple, they've done more than a double. Or even if the skater does a << Triple, they still shouldn't get PENALIZED for it in comparison to doing just a double. This is one of the several ways in which CoP makes absolutely no sense mathematically. And it creates stupid competition results like this.
Man, I'm so sorry for Caroline, she looked heartbroken. 
I'm glad the audience reacted the way they should have and I hope Caroline knows a lot of people liked her program, just look at this thread.
So now it's pretty much obvious Ashley is going to worlds, the second one will be pobably Agnes or Mirai, unless they both bomb and Christina has a great performance. The judges won't give the second spot to Courtney, no matter how well she skates when the spots for the Olympics are on the line, which is somehow reasonable considering she has never skated in a senior international competition.
We know that ice is slippery but sadly there's probably now way Gracie can place 2nd or even 3rd. I can't imagine her getting 12 points more in the long than Agnes or Mirai. But there's a way she can place 4th and go to 4cc.
The scoring was really weird. :disapp:
I'm glad the audience reacted the way they should have and I hope Caroline knows a lot of people liked her program, just look at this thread. So now it's pretty much obvious Ashley is going to worlds, the second one will be pobably Agnes or Mirai, unless they both bomb and Christina has a great performance. The judges won't give the second spot to Courtney, no matter how well she skates when the spots for the Olympics are on the line, which is somehow reasonable considering she has never skated in a senior international competition.
We know that ice is slippery but sadly there's probably now way Gracie can place 2nd or even 3rd. I can't imagine her getting 12 points more in the long than Agnes or Mirai. But there's a way she can place 4th and go to 4cc.
The scoring was really weird. :disapp:
Eh, I say. Pile on the pressure. I'm very lukewarm when it comes to Mirai...I adore her, have always adored her, but these last few years have been nothing but a frustration. USAG cannot afford to keep their skaters comfortable and make everything a pleasant experience...that's how we've had some epic meltdowns at Worlds.
It is fairly safe to say that Ashley Wagner is now someone that USAG can be fairly confident in to pull off a respectable performance. For everyone else, though, it remains to be seen. If Mirai has got her act together enough to go to Worlds and not embarrass herself, then she might as well go knowing that she was able to handle the pressure of Nationals. If she can't pull it off here, she is NOT going to do it there. If her nerves are going do her in, it's better that it happens at Nationals when only a Worlds berth is on the line, rather at Worlds where an entire athlete's ticket to the Olympics rides on her shoulders.
Same goes for Gracie, Agnes, and yes, Ashley (although I'm more comfortable watching her skate, although I hesitate to say that in fear of jinxing her, haha!). If they can't handle the pressure of Nationals, then I've no interest in adding any more gray hairs to my head by watching them at Worlds.
Sorry if that sounds a little harsh, but as you can tell I'm a bit frustrated with my girls at the moment! USA has SO MANY beautiful, talented skaters that have every right to be the best in the world, but they CANNOT GET IT TOGETHER in competition. It's driving me insane.
I don't worry much when Ashley skates. At least she doesn't hold back and attacks the ice unlike Mirai or Alissa who look petrified at times when the pressure is on. Same with Agnes who needs to prove she can handle the pressure too. Ashley's problems in the past have been she almost wanted it to much. But no one will ever say she doesn't got for it. If only more of our girls had that mentality.
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All of which leads me to believe she was judged based on past performances/practice rather than the program that was actually skated. I did not see more then the allowable .25 on the loops...however, someone here says that the primary UR was on the take off. Maybe so, but I sure can't find it.
It has been about 100 years since I did a triple loop, but you are correct. There is naturally pre rotation-at least for most of us. (I'm seeing it in my head and feeling it, and yes, there is pre-rotation on the arc of the takeoff-too much arc and splat, so that problem takes care of itself.)
But then look at last year. Same situation and she was right in the mix...I don't know what was up this time. I could have understood something like 54...but 49??? Lowball. And I'm not her fan.
Conspiracy theories are always floating around that USFS wants this result, or the judges want to send so-and-so, and initially you hope it's all crock...but sometimes when you see shady scoring like this, it can't be helped to wonder if there's actually something in those statements.
To give the judging some credit, Caroline was not the only skater who received an underrotation call.
Looking at the protocols, especially on triple-triples half of the skaters in the top 12 received underrotation calls including: Hicks (Triple Flip-Triple Toe), Siraj (Triple Toe-Triple Toe), Miller (Triple Loop), Gold (Triple Flip-Triple Toe), Cain (Triple Sal), and Zhang (Loop & Flip).
My qualm is more with the rulebook, rather than the judging.
Surprise, you may be 12th or 5th. No one knows for sure until scores show up -- you don't know, the audience at the rink and at home don't know, even other skaters watching and expert commentators don't know, and even some judges in the building might not know until the Technical Controller tells them!
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- Jan 23, 2009
Having not seen the videos of any of these skaters except for Zhang, I don't know how much I agree with any of those calls. They may have been obviously underrotated, or in the case of Zhang not obviously underrotated/downgraded.
Think it does FS any favors?
The commentators don't necessarily have to get it right 100% of the time but they should at least have an idea. If they don't, you've got a problem...if the scoring is stumping/confounding even NJS experts, you've REALLY got a problem
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- Jun 27, 2003
Scott Hamilton skated there, too, and yes Lynn was one of their stars. Scott wrote about watching her skate there and having her give him advice that he blew off as a kid.
Thanks, Toni. That's funny about Scotty.
I like Gracie's skating. Her jumps are wonderfully springy. And I really love Christina. I hope she pulls herself up in the Long. By the way, I like Ashley's program. That jump where she lands and immediately does a leap--what an exit! And her spins are faster this year.
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