2013 US Nationals Senior Ladies SP

[lavender]

which is just wrong :disapp:
I never get the Zawadzki overpromotion, she is a hot n cold skater
as usually does terrible LPs

I agree. I don't get her at all.

This type of judging continues to help me feel less and less about this "sport".

 

[Tinymavy15]

I think Mirai was held back a tad in PCS since she skated so early in the lineup. I know that this is more of a 6.0 judges trick, but we consistently see skaters who perform later get the benefit of the doubt. Regardless, she is in a good place to overtake Agnes in the free, and as i predicted, we'll have an Ashley/Mirai california girl team.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

watch video ashley, miria, agnes, gracies, should have all got urs on their jumnps. they didn't they wasn't looking for them for those skaters like zhang.
i am tired of this, i hope osmaond beats ashley at world/fc. and the us ladies go to one and the u.s goes to 8 in the team event.
they don't deserved to be up on top since the u.s. figure skating can't judge fairly/evenly.
look for mistakes on ones they don't want like zhang over look others like ashley, mirai, agnes, gracie, courtney, christina.
all jumps like zhang and none was ur but her.

Unfortunately, I think when you have a reputation for UR'ing it is harder to get credit in close calls. The fact is she did under-rotate those jumps and it is quite clear in replay. Caroline gets URs called by both national and international judges so I don't think anyone is out to get her. I don't think the others UR quite as frequently as Caroline.

 

[mateusp1]

For me, Mirai was very good... But, I didn't thought she was "totally" and "completely" ON yesterday. She looked very tense and nervous. Her skating was very cautious.

About Agnes... Well, I not the right person to comment, because I love her skating. Her SP song is so nice. I like the Ina Bauer.
I do not think Agnes slow... I have never watched her live, but, in the screen, she is very fast. She also needs speed to make that massive, big and enormous jumps.

Ashley was great. I like the program, suits her very well... I heard she is struggling with the 3Lo+2A+Seq and she fell again in the sequence. I am rooting so much for her. When people comment that she does not have a 3+3... I would like you to see that 2 of the 3 jump elements from her SP are back loaded... The position of the Loop and the 2A gives her an extra point.

 

[kwanatic]

Ashley: Not as easy and powerful as the GPF performance but still very good. She hit all of her elements cleanly and given the injuries and illness, she did exactly what she needed to do: delivered a solid error-free program. I'm happy for her and completely agree with her score.

Agnes: Everybody is fussing about her being in 2nd but I'm actually okay with it. It's not like she's 3 or 4 points ahead of Mirai. It's less than a point. Her lutz and 3-3 were great and the fall on the 2A was unlucky. I like Agnes but I'm highly doubtful she'll maintain her position. She's known for being very unstable in the LP so I'm thinking she'll drop from 2nd to 3rd or possibly 4th or lower depending on how others skate.

Mirai: Definitely an improvement! She didn't have the fire/spark throughout the performance but there was enough there to let you know this is not the Mirai of 2011-2012. She attacked her jumps; that 3-3 was the best I've seen from her since 2008. No doubt about the rotation, good height, great coverage and speed. I think she lost focus on her spins, particularly the layback (traveled) but overall, she was wonderful. I think 3rd is a comfortable spot for her and hopefully skating last will be a good thing as well, especially if she's solid. The judges will know exactly what she's up against...I think she'll pull it off and move up to 2nd.

Courtney: The camera angle really lets you see how much air she gets...it's impressive. However it's sad that she gets that much height and still URs her jumps (her 3T in the combo was <). She's still very all over the place when she skates, very clunky, a bit sloppy and very unrefined...I'm not a fan of her skating.

Christina: Breaking through requires that you skate cleanly so I guess there's no one to blame here...but even with the mistake on the spin I thought she was a bit underscored. I figured she'd score 60 but no such luck. I'd have had her ahead of Courtney. Her 3-3 was lovely and so was the program, but the jumps were a little tight. Hopefully she'll have a good LP and get out of 5th place...

Yasmin: I'm happy for her. Her SP is lovely and it's good to see her give a solid performance. I love those transitions into her 2A...

Gracie: The media has done a number on Gracie. People expect her to do so well b/c they hype her through the roof: the 3-3s, the Rippon lutz, perfect practices, working with Zoueva, "changes" made since COR...that all sounds great and leads you to believe Gracie is this rock solid competitor when in fact she's been anything but that this year. I can't say I'm surprised with how she skated, especially after seeing the terrified expression she had before she got started. The judges were generous and kept her within striking distance of the top 5. Maybe she'll be able to pull off a strong LP with no pressure now, but a lot of people would have to suck for her to make it to worlds this year. I wouldn't rule out 3rd or 4th though...

Angela: So sad she can't get her SP together. Last year she jumped from 16th to 8th so maybe with a strong LP (which she's known for) she can move up. She 10th now so she might be able to move up to 6th or 5th. She's another one who will never break through if she can't manage to deliver cleanly in the SP. If she'd been clean she would probably be in 4th or 5th right now...

Caroline: I do feel really sorry for her. By her standards, that was a great performance. In realtime, the 2nd 3L looked URed but not worthy of a DG. I thought her 3F might be iffy b/c she started rotating a little late. Even with the jump errors and the slowness of her skating, I thought she'd get at least a 50-52. It's obvious they don't want her to sneak into 4th like she did last year b/c then they'd have to give her a GP or send her to 4CC. They want those spots for the newer/competitive girls. I feel sorry for her. She's actually been pretty strong this season in terms of her jumps; it's just that her basics are so bad she gets hammered on PCS and receives very few GOEs. This might be her last appearance at nationals...

Haley: Even with the mistakes I thought she was gorgeous. I saw her a few months back (a clean performance of that program) and was amazed by how graceful and elegant she is. She has a very classic 70s look about her skating...she'd fit right in with Dorothy and Peggy. I love and definitely appreciate her style. Plus she's really sweet; she thanked me for my support on Twitter!

The LP will be a dogfight. As long as Ashley is solid, she's the winner...as she should be. No one is close to matching her consistency or international cred right now so she needs to be on that team. Hopefully she's gotten over her 3L-2A hump and her energy/stamina will hold up. I think she'll be okay though...

I don't expect Agnes to hold onto 2nd. She's just not a strong LP skater so if she manages to deliver strongly, I'll be shocked. I'm feeling good about Mirai but I'm worried about her too, mainly b/c of her cold. You could tell how sick she was at the press conference. She was coughing the whole time. That could cause issues in terms of stamina.

Christina has the potential to move up but she'll need a repeat of SA to get to the podium. I think a strong performance from Courtney could land her 4th or 5th depending on others. Gracie will need every point to move up. She's 10+ points back which means she'll have to be near perfect and will need others to make mistakes if she wants to move into the top 3 or 4. If she's clean I expect a massive score from the judges to help her leapfrog everyone else onto the podium...but they're damn fools if they send her to worlds this year. 4CC? Sure. Worlds? They'll regret it. Angela has the ability to pull herself up a few spots as well if she's clean, which she usually is.

This will be an interesting LP, that's for sure. Can't wait!

 

[mskater93]

I would like to point of that Gao's combo spin(the last one) got level 4. How does that happen compared to Mirai? Going 2nd may have effected her GOEs/levels. PCS seems pretty fair IMHO.

Nagasu shorted her rotations in two of her feature to the location of the review camera on the CCoSp which is how she got a level 2. This is why MOST coaches work with their skaters to identify the location of the review camera while at practice and also why they (should) stress to hold the positions longer than they feel is "two revs". It's not a big conspiracy to hold Nagasu (or anyone else) down...

 

[mskater93]

OK. I don't normally do this, but I MUST protest Caroline Zhang's penalties given by the tech panel. It looked like she did a 3Lo-3Lo< to me, and her 3F looked like it was within the 1/4 rotation allowance. Can anyone else with a good eye for these things comment? I really think she deserved better than the score she got.

You have to look at the take off as well as this has been a point of emphasis in the last year or so with tech panels. If you look at the amount of pre-rotation on the second 3Lo, it's definitely << with the amount short on the landing. 3F was borderline, but a skater who has a reputation for under rotation isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt.

 

[fairly4]

congratulations, proven my point, take off any and all protest /complaints against the judging for the skaters the federation want up their. so their is
No Accountability of the cheating standard of u.s. ladies skating and watch them fall further behind not only russia, japan, italybut now canada, finland, maybe others,
the u.s ladies the top 6 are okay but not great, they need to step it up -clean up their act, make all judges notice all mistakes, if
public can see them why can't they.
no accountability on skaters to change technique, skating because the u.s. federation will continually overlook the mistakes of skaters want up on top than includes all of top 6 and maybe even more.
hard to believe but why u.s. figure skating is falling behind in men, pairs, and now ladis - i don't mean triple/triple o-i mean cleanliness of them. allow skaters to win with bad technqiue while canada, russia, japan, finland, italy, france, germany-now i think is getting their skaters to clean their jumps up. the u.s allows so so skating, technqiue and just goes after one skater to change hers but not the rest.
don't expect buying public to stay in it with you, suport this mess.

 

[mskater93]

I am not sure I quite get what you are getting at, fairly. Hicks got a < on the 3T, Siraj got a < on the 3T and Gold got a < on the 3T. They were sufficiently dinged for "poor technique" as you call it and Gold was also given an "e" on her flip. If people were truly nailed on technique, Zhang NEVER would have medalled in Juniors...

 

[lavender]

Caroline did well at 4CC winning her 2nd bronze medal last season so I don't know why they are holding her back if she skates well enough.

 

[lavender]

Gracie: The media has done a number on Gracie. People expect her to do so well b/c they hype her through the roof: the 3-3s, the Rippon lutz, perfect practices, working with Zoueva, "changes" made since COR...that all sounds great and leads you to believe Gracie is this rock solid competitor when in fact she's been anything but that this year. I can't say I'm surprised with how she skated, especially after seeing the terrified expression she had before she got started. The judges were generous and kept her within striking distance of the top 5. Maybe she'll be able to pull off a strong LP with no pressure now, but a lot of people would have to suck for her to make it to worlds this year. I wouldn't rule out 3rd or 4th though...

I agree Phil Hersh was all on board at first but he hasn't said much about her since the season started. I think they should have given her time anyway to transition and mature.

 

[R.D.]

Well well. Only have time for quick thoughts but in a nutshell:

Good for Wagner for being tough and getting the job done despite her illness. That said, there will be a tremendous amount of pressure on her now with virtually everyone expecting her to win and the scores being so close. This next skate will truly tell us what she is made of as a skater. She has not been in this position before. I'll actually be surprised if she can get through it mistake-free.

Zawadzki and Nagasu remain within striking distance. Of the two I'd pick Nagasu but it could be either one. Or perhaps they both crumble...

Too bad for Zhang. Thought she should have been a little higher. Hicks too.

Lastly, Gold...this is what happens when the hype gets out of control. I don't care who you are, that was just WAY too much for her to be able to handle. Maybe she can now relax for the FS. She's basically out of title/WT contention, but 4th is still very much within reach (even 3rd if, say, Zawadzki bombs)

 

[fairly4]

and none are really that great of skaters,
the u.s. doesn't hold them accountable only certain ones.
they expect the buying public to be interested in skaters that they help overachieve like ashley, mirai, agnes,-who skated the cleaniest technique wise, christina, courtney,
none has the mindset for the high expectations of the buying public which the sponsors want.
they all just skate and u.s. gives them high scores as long as they are who past ogm medalist want and no other.
the u.s ladies are falling behind in italy, russian, japan, canada, in technique not jumps triple/triple--with france, finland , china, georgia catching up.
y
big surprise
the top 3 ashley, agnes, and mirai will stay top 3 overlook technique problems since 2008 will continually to overlook them now, cop buying public knows what to look for and doesn't like what they see.
they will medal
ashley
agnes
mirai
too bad-

 

[prettykeys]

You have to look at the take off as well as this has been a point of emphasis in the last year or so with tech panels. If you look at the amount of pre-rotation on the second 3Lo, it's definitely << with the amount short on the landing. 3F was borderline, but a skater who has a reputation for under rotation isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt.

Really? Since this year? Halfway through this season and this is the first time I'm hearing of this...if anything it seemed like tech panels everywhere were MORE lenient than before. It's not that I didn't notice the pre-rotation, but we don't see too many 3Lo-3Lo and it seems very tricky to determine where the second jump begins; plus pre-rotation didn't seem to matter before.

It's especially odd given that I can think of at least one Japanese ladies skater at her respective Nationals this season who should have also been hammered on rotation-in-the-air if pre-rotation is starting to matter. (Satoko)

Pre-Olympic year is not a very nice time to skaters to start changing technical standards, and it's not being done uniformly...

:disagree:

 

[mskater93]

Nagasu's L2 on the CCoSp - I just went out to youtube to watch the nice poster who put it out there. Because she didn't establish the forward camel spin for 2 full revs before she dumped out of the circle she had been spinning in (you'll see a little bobble in the camel where she kind of catches a little bit and then re-establishes) none of the positions on the forward 1/2 of the spin counted for features. According to the way the rules are now written and the (at least in the US) tech panels are not giving positions after that until the change of foot (this is a change from last season). That error was an entire point for Nagasu.

 

[skatel80]

I agree that her combo was 3lo+3lo< , There is no way her second loop should have been downgraded, and I am not even a huge fan of Caroline. to be downgraded her second loop would have had to be more than a half turn short on landing which it was not, I am good at spotting urs/dgs, (I was a skateer at a reasonably high level ie. I had 2a and some triple jumps and I am now a coach so spotting urs is part of my job lol!) And this is not aimed personally at you mskater93 but it really annoys me when I hear people talking about prerotated loop jumps and saying that the half turn of prerotation makes jumps downgrade/ur worthy. It is correct tecnique to roll up onto the toe forwards while taking off for a loop jump this is especially true in double and triple loops and even more so for loops in combintion, it is how you spring into the jump and get height . If a skater does not do so their loop would look pretty scary and they wold not have a double let alone a triple.Techs dont downgrade for this (I have asked) Pre rotated toe loops are a different story and do get dgs and rightfully so

 

[mskater93]

Really? Since this year? Halfway through this season and this is the first time I'm hearing of this...if anything it seemed like tech panels everywhere were MORE lenient than before. It's not that I didn't notice the pre-rotation, but we don't see too many 3Lo-3Lo and it seems very tricky to determine where the second jump begins; plus pre-rotation didn't seem to matter before.

There aren't a whole lot of +3Lo for this very reason (and there have been a lot of 2Lo at the end of 3 jump combos getting hit with this as well). If it is obvious in real time that there's a forward takeoff (which there was for Zhang because she almost seemed to freeze forward before leaving the ice on that second loop take off).

ETA: skate80, yes, the little flag on the take off is OK as long as it is in the flow of the jump, but a three turn-"freeze on the forward inside edge"-jump is going to get nailed, especially if it's short on the back end. We discussed this ad nauseum this AM at the rink and our local TS said she'd have downgraded it because of the very clear, real time forward+ take off.

 

[MarkusNJ]

about the 3/3loop with Caroline....maybe they downgrade on pre-rotation as well? I remember that being the reason that Rachael was downgraded on her flips at the Olympics.
That being said, I still think I was the only one not surprised by her score.

 

[skatel80]

There aren't a whole lot of +3Lo for this very reason (and there have been a lot of 2Lo at the end of 3 jump combos getting hit with this as well). If it is obvious in real time that there's a forward takeoff (which there was for Zhang because she almost seemed to freeze forward before leaving the ice on that second loop take off).

ETA: skate80, yes, the little flag on the take off is OK as long as it is in the flow of the jump, but a three turn-"freeze on the forward inside edge"-jump is going to get nailed, especially if it's short on the back end.

Oh yes the three turn is a big nono ! and you can actually see this in the tracing, you are right about the loop combinations making it hard to tell where the actual take off is, it is sometimes really hard to tell, this is probably where the sometimes questionable urs come from, im still puzzled by her first loop though, Unfortunately there is nothing we or caroline can do about about it, she just has to look forward to the long and put this behind her.good luck caroline, you were one of my unexpected favourite ladies in the short!!

 

[kwanatic]

and none are really that great of skaters,
the u.s. doesn't hold them accountable only certain ones.
they expect the buying public to be interested in skaters that they help overachieve like ashley, mirai, agnes,-who skated the cleaniest technique wise, christina, courtney,
none has the mindset for the high expectations of the buying public which the sponsors want.
they all just skate and u.s. gives them high scores as long as they are who past ogm medalist want and no other.
the u.s ladies are falling behind in italy, russian, japan, canada, in technique not jumps triple/triple--with france, finland , china, georgia catching up.
y
big surprise
the top 3 ashley, agnes, and mirai will stay top 3 overlook technique problems since 2008 will continually to overlook them now, cop buying public knows what to look for and doesn't like what they see.
they will medal
ashley
agnes
mirai
too bad-

I'm really trying to understand what you're saying but you need to work on your sentence construction. Is English your first language? I'm guessing not but if it is, please use punctuation of some kind and ease up on the "Enter" key...it would really help.

From what I've gathered from your run-on sentence post is that you believe all the top US skaters suck and are not penalized by the US judges for the mistakes they make. Did you bother to look at the protocols? The -GOEs on those who made mistakes and the </<</e dings beg to differ. This is a national competition so the scores are going to be a little generous, though I will say I think the judges didn't go too far overboard here. Most of the scores were within 1.00-1.5 points of the scores these skaters received internationally so kudos to them for that.

Is it you just don't like any of the top names?