2014-2015 GPF Short Dance 12/12

[GF2445]

But do the judges even know how to judge PCS? I am not an expert follower but just looking at the scores for the Shibs for Interpretation/Timing:

8.00 9.00 8.75 9.25 8.00 7.25 9.00 8.25 7.00

That is a 2.25 point range with 10 increments between them. What is the max spread supposed to be before someone gets called out as either cheating or incompetent? I haven't seen the performances so I can't say if the high numbers are more correct or the lower numbers, but clearly the judges don't know either or the spread wouldn't be so wide. The other PCS marks show similar variation. I/Z have similarly strange marks from the 7s to the 9s in the same category. And while I know they aren't new skaters, they are a new team so some judge is saying that they have the same skills as the long-standing teams. Do they? Because then the talking heads need to stop forcing the "It takes a new team time to gel. Davis and White and Virture and Moire have been skating together since the beginning of time, that's why they are so far ahead of the rest!" line. Other skaters scores are more consistent across the board and between components which frankly is more troubling--all teams have equally good skating skills as their interpretation skills? Not a single team is a 9 pointer in choreography but only a 6 or 7 in Footwork? Once you hit that 7ish level in one thing, you are that in every thing?

In conclusion: I think the judging system sucks. At least in gymnastics, you know that the gymnast got 8.9 because of three small steps, one large step, a leg separation, and a fall out of a spin and can add them up and get approximately the same number the judges gave. This seems like they just throw numbers around (or have pre-decided what level the skater is at) and then just give those scores.

Maximum spread should ideally be between 1-1.5 points range between the highest and lowest.
Noone is going to get punished though. If the judge over or undermarks yet remains consistent, it's ok because their imput would either be averaged out or be taken off before being averaged.

 

[Alba]

I/Z have similarly strange marks from the 7s to the 9s in the same category. And while I know they aren't new skaters, they are a new team so some judge is saying that they have the same skills as the long-standing teams. Do they?

They do yeah, and if anything they were underscored in CoC for example. They are among the best in terms of SS and interpretation and performance.

Because then the talking heads need to stop forcing the "It takes a new team time to gel.

It does take time, but that doesn't mean that you might not be better than some long-standing teams in some aspects. They are young couples, who came from juniors like the young americans H&K and the canadians P&O, which I find much better than seniors for example. Nothing strange with that.


Having said that, I do agree with you that the judges have been all over the place in this GPF, and not only in dance.

 

[whatif]

I thought P/C were the worst of top 6 today. I would have had them below I/Z.

 

[gmyers]

European teams need to learn like North Americans! They have such a good history and legacy but this display was awful. What's their problems?

 

[Mathman]

Ilinykh/Zhiganshin's third judge have some strange scores too. He or she could be outside of the corridor as well.

Indeed. That judge is off by 5.76 in total PCSs, compared to the allowable total "corridor" of 5.00. This should get an "assessment," too -- especially if it the same judge who over-scored Chock and Bates.

Noone is going to get punished though.

According to ISU procedure (ISU communication No. 1631, if there is not a more recent one), this judge's scores should be reviewed for possible "assessment." Even if the judge remains consistently high or consistently low throughout the event, and even if that judges' marks are always thrown out for being the highest or lowest, the judge is still vulnerable to possible penalties.

The "corridor" is so wide that it is almost impossible for a judge, even an incompetent or biassed one, to land outside, except in ice dance. When this happens the ISU doesn't like it because it calls attention to the lack of precision in the judging system -- something the ISU would prefer not to be discussed so much.

 

[aftertherain]

I'm laughing at Chock/Bates's PCS marks.

Well, two of them given by on judge in particular.

 

[Alba]

and even if that judges' marks are always thrown out for being the highest or lowest, the judge is still vulnerable to possible penalties.

By the way, this reminds me something. I wonder how much high, the highest scores were?

 

[rain]

I'm laughing at Chock/Bates's PCS marks.

Well, two of them given by on judge in particular.

Yes, that's ridiculous.

But then, I've puzzled for the scoring for this team on this dance this whole season. Like others here I find it very lacking in Paso Doble. I don't get why the judges love the choreography and expression so very, very much. It was very interesting to watch the British Eurosport coverage and hear the commentary — they seemed to be completely in love with it as well. I just don't get it at all. I find the Shibutanis to be far superior in this dance, with far superior choreography — and I'm not generally a huge fan of the Shibs and think they've significantly lost their way the last few years. But their Paso is a winner. And yet it's regarded as less than Chock/Bates's.

I adore G/P's dance as well and I'm among those who really like the cape. I think it's awesome with this dance and helps them to stand out. That said, there are parts of it that still need amplitude and crispness, which I hope they are working on perfecting. In particular there's one sequence before the twizzles where she drops down almost to one knee that needs more amplitude and conviction. I find that spot particularly glaring, and did when I saw the program earlier in the season as well. I know they're setting up for the twizzles at that point, but it's a shame to waste that choreographic beat.

Overall, it was very interesting to watch the required steps sequences. None of the teams were as close together in the hips as the very best teams of all time, so you can see they all still have some technical work they can do.

 

[Orange Cat]

The scale of values is such that all +3 would only result in 2.00 overall. 1.46 for twizzles is excellent! I will have to take a look, but I think that might be the most +GOE (and overall) received for twizzles this season.

Thanks, Mrs P! The Shibs definitely had the sharpest twizzles, so I am glad

 

[sisinka]

It was very interesting to watch the British Eurosport coverage and hear the commentary — they seemed to be completely in love with it as well. I just don't get it at all.

British commentators are in love with everybody. They were saying - "incredible, superb, famous, fantastic" to every couple I was watching.

 

[sisinka]

Technical panel and Paso Doble Pattern and Partial Step Sequence:

Let’s start with smaller problems…both Shibutanis and Papadakis & Cizeron got counted first Key Point 3 in Paso Doble pattern, but didn’t get counted the second Key Point 3 in Paso Doble Step Sequence. The fact that both couples showed exactly the same edges and same swing movement (swing movement starting from straight free leg in case of Maia and Alex and starting from free leg with bent knee from Gabriella and Guillaume) in both patterns didn’t bother the panel. It is true that in both cases ladies had a little bit different direction of skating – they went a little bit the to right side…but it didn’t change the fact that edges were done in the same way like in first Key Point 3, which was counted. What was REALLY not right was timing of both couples in second Key Point 3, in both cases music changes somewhere there and gets slower, but there is still Paso Doble rhythm which must be kept. Both Gabriella and Maia were not in time in making Right Forward Outside edge into Inside edge and Open Mohawk then.
Why Technical panel counted the first Key Point 3 and then came to an opinion that the couples have enough and doesn’t need another Key Point 3 counted, I don’t know. Giving them Timing problem would much more reflect the situation.

Let’s stay with Key Point 3.
Lena & Ruslan didn’t get first Key Point 3 counted, because Ruslan didn’t have clean arc on Right foot, that Level down was OK. What was wrong with second Key Point 3, which was clean? Why judges didn’t count it? Swing movement was OK (bent knee of free leg like in case of Gabriella and Guillaume), Right Forward Outside edge was great. The only problem could be the fact that Lena didn’t come into Left Backward Inside edge immediately, but first she stood up having no edge and immediately she went into Inside edge…but it wouldn’t be me, if I didn’t compare this with somebody else. Piper and Paul for example – Piper is another girl who performs Open Mohawk in style that she makes no edge on Left foot and then she immediately goes into Inside edge…

, so both ladies are not showing perfect Open Mohawk, so it shouldn’t be counted for both Piper and Lena…. But what happened? Piper and Paul got both Key Point 3 counted, despite Piper’s no edge in stepping on Left foot….but Lena and Ruslan didn’t get second Key Point 3 counted, although Lena executed exactly the same thing/mistake like Piper.

Besides not perfect Open Mohawk in both Key Point 3, Piper and Paul have another BIG problem. Their cross steps are wrong…they are first stepping on foot having no edge and then they go into Outside edge…this is wrong…skaters must immediately go into Outside edge in cross steps. Especially Piper doesn’t know to do that – in one moment Piper has almost Inside edge -

.
What was wrong with panel that they counted G&P‘s Key Point 3?

And now let’s jump on Key Point 1.
Lena and Ruslan executed great Key Point 1 in opening Paso Doble Pattern – full extension of front leg in slide steps, good slide moves (for those who start to say that whole blade was not on the ice – this is normal, skaters are touching the ice with only a part of blade, not whole blade…and Paul had exactly the same touching contact with ice in slide steps like Ruslan had)…both Lena and Ruslan visibly elevated free leg after slide steps…both Lena and Ruslan had very good edges….but they didn’t get the Key Point 1 counted.

Look at Piper and Paul with Key Point 1 in both Paso Doble parts. Edges looks good, but Paul almost doesn’t elevate Right leg after slide steps (yes, he is doing this whole season and panel doesn’t care), Paul makes full extension in slide steps, Piper is not able to make full extension in slide steps even once in all four attempts in both Key Point 1…this is her maximum –

,

.
But many girls didn’t get Key Point 1 counted doing this and slide steps must be well done – it is in rules – and description of slide step is full extension of leg which is in front. So how is possible that Canadian couple got both Key Point 1 counted????

Second biggest failure from Technical panel was Ilinykh & Zhiganshin’s Step sequence. Technical panel gave Level 2 only, but in reality Lena and Ruslan executed Level 4. Looking at edges, change of edges, One Foot Section – everything was clean, every edge was visible, many edges very deep, no shaky places. Yes, there was one moment – Lena’s Rocker at the end of steps after second Double Twizzle – the edge was rather light (but many skaters got light edges counted). So strict Technical panel would give at least Level 3, normal panel would give Level 4. After their skate there was a slow motion of One Foot Section in those steps taken from another camera – this is a perfect study of edges, clean changes, knee work. Nobody else executed better Step Sequence. Why the couple got Level 2 only???? A revenge? For what?

With such Technical panel it is hard to look at marks and talk about real situation.
If Technical panel would be correct:
1) Gilles & Poirier would get Paso Doble parts - 1PD2 NYN (Level 2 for Key Point 2 counted), 2PD1 NNN (Level 1 for no Key Points counted). This would take 3 points from their base value which Technical panel gave them like a gift.
2) Papadakis & Cizeron and Shibs would probably get Timing issue in second Key Point 3, so the Base value wouldn’t change.
3) Ilinykh & Zhiganshin would stay with Key Point 3 not counted in both cases but they would get Key Point 1 in Paso Doble Pattern counted. Their Step Sequence would be counted like at least Level 3. Their Base value would be at least 2.5 point higher.

Than the placement with correct levels would look like:
S&S – 63.90
I&Z – 60.25 + 2.5 = 62.75
P&C – 61.48
G&P – 62.49 – 3 = 59.49

Why are Gilles & Poirier so much supported and their mistakes are not taken into account? Why are points taken from Ilinykh & Zhiganshin, when they fulfill the criteria? How much junior Ice Dance podium with all three couples from Russia and Canadian couples without podium finish influenced that fact that second Canadian couple is in front of first Russian couple?

I was almost sure that Shekhovtsova in position of Technical controller will be able to keep normal judging for Lena & Ruslan. Instead Technical panel puts down every level seeing the mistake (while other couple is excused) and Technical panel even takes points from them in moment of not doing mistakes. Why?

 

[LisaM]

Wow, thank you Sisinka for such a hugely technical post! Very interesting to read.

 

[diane044]

Yes, I see the two 10's for Chock and Bates! How do you fall and are still considered perfect?

For me, Weaver and Poje captured the dance. It was traditional but it was strong and dynamic. Chock and Bates have an innovative SD but I just don't feel the same engagement that I get from Weaver and Poje. I feel that the Shibs are making some ground in their slippery slope to regain their top 3 status. This dance is not their strength but today's was good. I LOVE Gilles and Poirier. They are edgy and different and I think the cape was totally cool. Piper's eye makeup is a bit strange but I love the costume construction and the funky things Paul does to twirl his cape! Not Papadakis and Ciszeron's day. Elena and Ruslan are doing just fine for newbies . They should be pleased with their strong beginning.

I completely agree. I've watched the videos several times--I get more out of them every time I watch. (Thanks, mao88!!) But I'm still confused by I/Z's low marks. Their SD didn't look that bad, but it wasn't as good as one of their previous GP outings. I couldn't find a video with commentary in English, so I didn't learn what they did wrong. Anyone, help me!

 

[sisinka]

I completely agree. I've watched the videos several times--I get more out of them every time I watch. (Thanks, mao88!!) But I'm still confused by I/Z's low marks. Their SD didn't look that bad, but it wasn't as good as one of their previous GP outings. I couldn't find a video with commentary in English, so I didn't learn what they did wrong. Anyone, help me!

Looking at Protocols they executed Level 4 in Lift and Twizzles. They got only Level 2 in Step Sequence, but in reality they executed Level 4. They got only one Key Point in both Paso Doble parts counted, so both Paso Doble parts were Level 2 only (but they should get one more Key Point counted, because they executed it cleanly).

The didn’t get good GOE – judges didn’t put proper marks for Step Sequence and Twizzles, although they were best in those elements yesterday.

They didn’t get high Components, Skating Skills over 8 is OK, because Ruslan stumbled and had two shaky moments, but they deserved much higher score in Choreography and also higher score in Interpretation and Performance.

Overall Technical panel was not fair to them putting down levels which couple executed and judges are still not giving appropriate marks – the couple is new and visibly is not that much supported by Russian Federation.

 

[sisinka]

Kaitlyn Weaver & Andrew Poje:

They improved since NHK Trophy. That was something (using British commentators words – superb, fantastic, incredible)! It had power, it was majestic, passionate, simply great. Skating like this at World Championhips and having fair judging – this dance will be the winning dance.

Only some details – Andrew needs to extend his free leg in some moments – it kills the overall look, he shouldn’t put his head forward – visibly in last part of the dance – he looses majestic and commanding look with this. Maybe only my opinion, but from aesthetic point of view I don’t like the lift – in comparison with the rest of the dance it doesn’t have that sparkle and Kaitlyn’s skirt up also doesn’t help much. Paso Doble pattern had better attack, but still space to improve.

 

[sisinka]

Madison Chock & Evan Bates:

I am admirer of that lift – executing it to the rhythm it looks so great.

The expression was pale in comparison with W&P and I&Z. Evan’s posture is no way Spanish and Madison is flirty in style of her Cabaret FD in 2010/11 season. This is no way Spanish style of dancing.

It was a bad luck with that fall. I liked that both Evan and coach suported Madison after skate.


Maia Shibutani & Alex Shibutani:

Very clean and great Twizzles. Better dynamics in both Step Sequence and Paso Doble parts than last time.

Overall better expression, more dynamics and better gradation in the end. Speed is smaller, it could be better.

This was the second best Short Dance after Weaver & Poje, they should be second overall.

 

[alebi]

Indeed. That judge is off by 5.76 in total PCSs, compared to the allowable total "corridor" of 5.00. This should get an "assessment," too -- especially if it the same judge who over-scored Chock and Bates.



According to ISU procedure (ISU communication No. 1631, if there is not a more recent one), this judge's scores should be reviewed for possible "assessment." Even if the judge remains consistently high or consistently low throughout the event, and even if that judges' marks are always thrown out for being the highest or lowest, the judge is still vulnerable to possible penalties.

The "corridor" is so wide that it is almost impossible for a judge, even an incompetent or biassed one, to land outside, except in ice dance. When this happens the ISU doesn't like it because it calls attention to the lack of precision in the judging system -- something the ISU would prefer not to be discussed so much.

Sorry for asking a dumb question, but how can ISU penalize a judge if they stay anonymous and, I suppose, their order changes from a skater to another one (so you can't say for example that it's always number 3 who gives the lowest marks). Or is ISU allowed to see in a secret document what every judge gave during the competition?

 

[sisinka]

Piper Gilles & Paul Poirier:

Paul has better posture than last time. He started to remind dancers who skated in Dean’s era, but not Dean’s dance quality. I still wonder whether copying Dean’s style was a good idea.

The couple looks faster than Shibs and Chock & Bates.

Problems to execute at least 5 clean turns in Step Sequence by both (needed for Level 2).

Twizzles with Piper’s fight to keep balance in second Set and small ice coverage.

The same GOE +1.73 in Step Sequence for G&P, P&C and I&Z – this shows no way what was happening on the ice.

Their Paso Doble is dynamic.

Even with other couples doing mistakes, G&P are the worst couple skating here in both technique and for me the weakest in presentation also. Only big gift from Technical could cause that the couple is not sitting on the last place.

Once again I don’t get any Spanish feeling from the couple (this time even from Paul). He tries to be matador, but it doesn’t work yet, Piper has no Spanish presentation. The cape is distracting for me. The last Paul’s posture looked in style of matadors.

From ISU rules: When Spanish Dances Rhythms are designated in Short Dance, freedom is given to the couples to choose any Spanish Dance Rhythms except Spanish Tango, provided the expression of the whole dance reflects the feeling of Spanish Dance to the audience and Judges.

The requirement was Spanish dance – one form is Paso Doble. I expect that dancers will explain any form of Spanish dance (including Paso Doble part) – which means that each of dancers will be recognizable like somebody who uses Spanish dance style, no matter what she or he is portraying (woman, man, bull, cape…).

Watching Piper – her cape story is visible, but Spanish dance is not there. If you watch her without music and not look at Paul – I don’t see whether she is cape of…Matador, Batman, Superman, Cardinal Richelieu, Quasimodo’s cape…using cape or being cape doesn’t mean Spanish dance only.

Piper’s imatation of cape at dress…cape or scarf, quite similar, no? There is one little kid - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDhrEscxF1E and one adults belly dancer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTB4RbhdOrw&feature=player_detailpage#t=26 , who uses scarf and moves with it…are they immediately going to be a Paso Doble dancers using cape-scarf (so Matadors) or being the cape-scarf itself (so Spanish woman)? Of course not. Being cape or using cape is not enough. If you are dancing Spanish dance, you must dance in Spanish style and yes, you may portrait any possible story which some form of Spanish dance offers.

Look at Fusar-Poli & Margaglio and their gala to Nessun Dorma - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FtCCKRbuQ0 , Mauricio is using cape – is it automatically meaning that he is a Matador and Barbara is a bull? Of course not. Their moves visibly show that there is something completely different than Spanish dance.

And how about Javier and his cape? Is he Paso Doble dancer using cape? https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lPJKYyZ0v4E#t=117

Being cape or having cape only is not enough, if you are dancing Spanish dance, you must dance in Spanish style plus you may portrait whoever you want (if it goes with rules). Piper is not doing it.

Sara Hurtado is a perfect example of dancer who doesn’t portrait a woman (in the first part), but bull, but she is able to keep Spanish dance style in comparison with Piper, so from the beginning to the end (watching her without music and only her, not Adria), there is more than visible that she is expressing Spanish dance, not only ANY bull.

 

[sisinka]

Gabriella Papadakis & Guillaume Cizeron:

Mistake in Twizzles. Once again Gabriella is catching her blade so-so, at the end of the first half turn or maybe a little bit later, this is not very visible from camera angle, but catching it after first half turn means not counting leg position like Feature for Level.

Shaky moments in Gabriella’s execution of Step Sequence, many light edges from both, problems with clean turns – but they got the same GOE like perfect Step Sequence by I&Z.

Overall the dance is great, but today it was not too good. I missed the tension and drama, although the dance kept Spanish feeling. Guillaume was too relaxed in body posture and thanks to it he had no commanding look like Spanish dancers have.

 

[sisinka]

Elena Ilinykh & Ruslan Zhiganshin:

The best Step Sequence and with Shibs the best Twizzles in the field, great synchro in both elements. (Just notice how much ice coverage Lena and Ruslan have in One Foot Section during Step Sequence).

Let’s compare judge‘s GOE in Twizzles:
1. S&S + 1.46 points, 2. W&P +1.29 points, 3. C&B +1.20 points, 4. I&Z +1.03 points

In no way W&P or C&B had better Twizzles, Shibs Twizzles were great but didn’t have great ice coverage and overall their Twizzles are from lower speed. It is true that Ruslan had a fight after the first Set coming into the second Set, so I woudn’t say that this time I&Z had superior Twizzles, but it was on the same level and it should get plus minus the same GOE like Shibs got.

Let’s compare judge’s GOE in Step Sequence:
1. W&P and C&B +2.20 points, 2. P&C, I&Z and G&P +1.73 points, 3. S&S +1.57 points

Putting technically weak couple like G&P and technically weaker couple like P&C (when Gabriella had shaky moments in steps) on the same level of GOE like I&Z – is not reflecting the reality.

Very good speed.

Two shaky moments in Paso Doble by Ruslan, in the second shaky moment…it happened during the Key Point 1 in Partial Step Sequence, Ruslan was fighting to save the Key Point and stood on one foot for whole time, but when he tried to cross in front he almost stood on his own foot and it caused the stumble.

Both shaky moments looked strange. Ruslan’s body looked strenghtened enough to make such mistakes. I refused to think about boot problems like British commentators were suggesting, because after the program Ruslan didn’t control his blades. I think that maybe there could be something on the ice, some little hole or anything like that. Or it was because of nerves, but frankly I never saw such mistakes which would be caused by stress.

In first moment during Key Point 3 the trajectory of Ruslan’s blade looked OK and suddenly without any move of upper body the trajectory changed – there could be something on the ice. In the second moment during Key Point 1 in Partial Step Sequence it more looked like that Ruslan lost concentration and didn’t went into deep knee enough and then he lost upper body control, maybe.

Skating Skills over 8 are OK with stumble, without it their quality of Skating Skills is towards 9.

Ruslan has the best posture from all male dancers – no problems with head posture or upper body posture, this is Spanish dancer like it should be. The dance was passionate, dramatic, it had a gradation. Despite two shaky moments and stumble by Ruslan the couple didn’t loose the expression during the dance and skated to maximum to the end – nice to see it.

Since Cup of Russia – the program looks more polish, great synchro between those two, they improved in execution of Step Sequence and very visible improvement in lift. Paso Doble parts needs another lot of work mainly by Ruslan, but in Key Point 3 also by Lena. Nice to see the improvement, it would be even nicer to see the program clean – next time.

This was the dance with the second best presentation after Kaitlyn & Andrew.