2014 NHK Trophy Short Dance 11/28
- Thread starter dorispulaski
- Start date
So it looks like Chock and Bates are running ahead in the race for the world title as W/P marks drop in their 2nd event yet again. And between their last events it seems C/B are ahead of W/P on PCS.
Once D/W moved ahead of V/M on PCS there was no looking back.
Once D/W moved ahead of V/M on PCS there was no looking back.
Kaitlyn Weaver & Andrew Poje:
Nice opening Set of Twizzles, the second was quite good, out of synchro in the third Set.
Once again I like the dance, I think it gets better slowly, but gets better.
It doesn’t have WOW effect for me yet (like in case of Hurtado & Diaz and Ilinykh & Zhiganshin), but I like that the couple put some much effort into creating the Spanish feeling in this dance. They improved in Paso Doble steps also – another couple who tries not to look careful in those steps.
Penny Coomes & Nicholas Buckland:
The couple gave everything into this dance.
Weaker technique is still visible, this time I saw only two deeper edges in Step Sequence, the rest was light or under question. After Key Point 3 in Paso Doble Pattern Nicholas had a problem – he scratched the ice having some difficulty there but it didn’t influence skating too much (but it supported my opinion about lacking of good technique).
Minimal ice coverage in Twizzles, it is a pity that difficult positions in Twizzles cause no ice coverage in Twizzles for most of couples.
As to Spanish dance – it had no Spanish style for me. Both Penny and Nicholas were dynamic on 120 percent and they were NOT carefull in Paso steps (which is great to see), but such dynamics with no passion and tension (so typical for Spanish dancers) is much more suitable for Rock-n-roll than Spanish dancers.
Ksenia Monko & Kirill Khaliavin:
Technically W&P and M&K are the strongest couples here. It is sad that judges didn’t notice it putting higher Skating Skills even for Coomes & Buckland, Zhiganshina & Gazsi and for Sinitsina & Katsalapov.
Kirill was flirting with Piruette in the second Set of Twizzles, good ice coverage in the first Set. What Technical panel didn’t notice was that Ksenia lost her blade in the second Set of Twizzles for half rotation and then catched it again – it happened so quickly that it was not very visible – their Twizzles should be Level 3 thanks to it.
The more I am watching all those careful Paso steps (with visible effort to make all edges clean no matter that music is dynamic and powerfull, but the couples are slower and carefull and then…even more carefull) the more I appreciate the attack some couples have in Paso Doble steps – M&K are one of those couples.
Their program is passionate and very dynamic, in some way Spanish, but besides Paso Doble steps I would be in trouble to say that it has typical Spanish feeling like I can say in for example W&P’s case.
If Zueva is able to persuade judges that S&K deserves 7.36 for Skating Skills for such skating, I think that also Zhulin should give a serious talk with judges to allow M&K to get appropriate Skating Skills score – technically they are visibly above the level of Coomes, Zhiganshin and Sinitsina.)
Kaitlin Hawayek & Jean-Luc Baker:
Smooth and fluent in Paso Doble steps, no attack.
I think that the one of Technical panel who watched ladies doing Twizzles was not very attentive – Kaitlin visibly executed a Piruette in the second Set of Twizzles – it should be Level 3 like in case of Russians.
Step Sequence better executed than in Russia, still needs an improvement in edges and clean changements of edges.
Some parts of the dance improved, especially I like the last part of the dance after Step Sequence where both Kaitlin and Jean-Luc hunted the music with big push towards passionate and dynamic look – that was very good looking. The rest of the dance is still rather smooth and gentle, it needs more passionate moves and attack.
Nice opening Set of Twizzles, the second was quite good, out of synchro in the third Set.
Once again I like the dance, I think it gets better slowly, but gets better.
It doesn’t have WOW effect for me yet (like in case of Hurtado & Diaz and Ilinykh & Zhiganshin), but I like that the couple put some much effort into creating the Spanish feeling in this dance. They improved in Paso Doble steps also – another couple who tries not to look careful in those steps.
Penny Coomes & Nicholas Buckland:
The couple gave everything into this dance.
Weaker technique is still visible, this time I saw only two deeper edges in Step Sequence, the rest was light or under question. After Key Point 3 in Paso Doble Pattern Nicholas had a problem – he scratched the ice having some difficulty there but it didn’t influence skating too much (but it supported my opinion about lacking of good technique).
Minimal ice coverage in Twizzles, it is a pity that difficult positions in Twizzles cause no ice coverage in Twizzles for most of couples.
As to Spanish dance – it had no Spanish style for me. Both Penny and Nicholas were dynamic on 120 percent and they were NOT carefull in Paso steps (which is great to see), but such dynamics with no passion and tension (so typical for Spanish dancers) is much more suitable for Rock-n-roll than Spanish dancers.
Ksenia Monko & Kirill Khaliavin:
Technically W&P and M&K are the strongest couples here. It is sad that judges didn’t notice it putting higher Skating Skills even for Coomes & Buckland, Zhiganshina & Gazsi and for Sinitsina & Katsalapov.
Kirill was flirting with Piruette in the second Set of Twizzles, good ice coverage in the first Set. What Technical panel didn’t notice was that Ksenia lost her blade in the second Set of Twizzles for half rotation and then catched it again – it happened so quickly that it was not very visible – their Twizzles should be Level 3 thanks to it.
The more I am watching all those careful Paso steps (with visible effort to make all edges clean no matter that music is dynamic and powerfull, but the couples are slower and carefull and then…even more carefull) the more I appreciate the attack some couples have in Paso Doble steps – M&K are one of those couples.
Their program is passionate and very dynamic, in some way Spanish, but besides Paso Doble steps I would be in trouble to say that it has typical Spanish feeling like I can say in for example W&P’s case.
If Zueva is able to persuade judges that S&K deserves 7.36 for Skating Skills for such skating, I think that also Zhulin should give a serious talk with judges to allow M&K to get appropriate Skating Skills score – technically they are visibly above the level of Coomes, Zhiganshin and Sinitsina.)
Kaitlin Hawayek & Jean-Luc Baker:
Smooth and fluent in Paso Doble steps, no attack.
I think that the one of Technical panel who watched ladies doing Twizzles was not very attentive – Kaitlin visibly executed a Piruette in the second Set of Twizzles – it should be Level 3 like in case of Russians.
Step Sequence better executed than in Russia, still needs an improvement in edges and clean changements of edges.
Some parts of the dance improved, especially I like the last part of the dance after Step Sequence where both Kaitlin and Jean-Luc hunted the music with big push towards passionate and dynamic look – that was very good looking. The rest of the dance is still rather smooth and gentle, it needs more passionate moves and attack.
Victoria Sinitsina & Nikita Katsalapov:
(Oh, I almost wrote Sinitsina & Zhiganshin – it was a stereotyp to connect those two names, but I corrected it immediatelly).
Well, after Cup of Russia, this is another event with very generous score for this couple.
I only wonder why is not Marina Zueva turning her “judges and Technical panel pushing“ into support for Shibs instead, they would be able to beat Chock & Bates then.
Twizzles with problems in every part by Vika and she almost fell out of the last third Set, problems with fixing positions again – not in time catched of free leg by Vika, not fixed arm position in second Set for Vika, Piruette by Vika in the second Set, not clean third Set of Twizzles by Vika (clean execution of third Set must be done to allow to count third Set like Feature). So only change of sides should be counted – and one Level reduction for a Piruette – so they should get Level 1.
I am not sure why six judges gave GOE 0 – I think that number of mistakes were too high for GOE 0.
Edges light or not done in both Paso parts and Step Sequence. I am surprised that Nikita got Key Point 2 counted in Paso Doble Pattern because…
Rules describes that Open Mohawk - “A Mohawk in which the heel of the free foot is placed on the ice at the inner side of the skating foot, the angle between the two feet being optional. Following the weight transfer, the immediate position of the new free foot is behind the heel of the new skating foot (examples: the Man’s Steps 8 and 9 and the Lady’s Steps 12 and 13 in the Fourteenstep).“
Key Point 2 in Paso Doble Pattern looks to be problematic for almost every man, it is too often not counted for not visible edges but also for not perfect change of foot. What Nikita created in an attemp for Open Mohawk was scratched (not sure with right translation into English) edge, feet with big distance in between – simply I would never count this Mohawk like well done – but Technical panel counted this, surprising.
Both Key Point 3 with Vika’s free leg bent in knee so hardly before the swing movement of free leg to the front – I don’t think that this is how the swing movement should be executed, Nikita’s swing is better. But also these Key Points were counted.
As to presentation – the couple will probably look better in Waltz next season. Spanish dances are not their cup of tea and it is very visible. Nikita is able to produce a dynamic moves, sometimes very dynamic, but like in case of Nick Buckland dynamics don’t means passion and like Nick – Nikita doesn’t have a posture of Spanish dancer. The whole dance lacks passion and tension, also I don’t have feeling that the couple reacts at each other (but last thing can be because of short term relationship.)
What I don’t agree with – and maybe it is partly a problem of a little bit gentle music as well, the couple is doing Paso Doble steps so gently, carefully and in slower mode that it already looks like Golden Waltz more than Paso Doble. It needs to be sharp and dynamic. Why is Nikita dynamic in the first part of the dance and then coming to Paso Doble part he starts to be soft like skating to Ave Maria?
BIG RHYTHM ISSUES!
S&K are definitelly talented and with hard work in next few years they can be one of medal contenders. The reality is that most of couples really need a lot of time to gell and get the quality they are capable of like a couple. I&Z are simply an exception – a rarity.
The more I watch S&K the more I appreciate that I&Z‘s gelling goes so fast, with synchro problems which are not sooo visible (about 70 percent less visible than in case of S&K). Also I&Z have many things to improve, but they definitelly don’t look like new couple (also in comparison with Vika & Nikita who looks like talented but newly formed couple) and presentation of I&Z already leaves a strong impression in both SD and FD.
Judges can really influence the result a lot with GOE and Component score…
If you look at Base value it would look like…
M&K – 28.20 points
W&P and H&B – 26.70 points
C&B – 25.20 points
R&R and H&D – 24.70 points
S&K – 23.20 points
Z&G – 22.70 points
With more attentive calls thanks to Twizzles M&K would get 27.20, H&B 25.70 and S&K (also thanks to Key Point 2 not well done) 21.20.
GOE and Component score helped S&K and Z&G to get better placement.
I don’t think Weaver & Poje would be weaker than Chock & Bates, but this Technical panel looks to be very attentive in most of time, with Technical panels at different Grand Prix which were more “kind“ to some dance couples – W&P would get higher score.
I agree that the real comparison with other dance couples will be done at Grand Prix Final.
(Oh, I almost wrote Sinitsina & Zhiganshin – it was a stereotyp to connect those two names, but I corrected it immediatelly).
Well, after Cup of Russia, this is another event with very generous score for this couple.
I only wonder why is not Marina Zueva turning her “judges and Technical panel pushing“ into support for Shibs instead, they would be able to beat Chock & Bates then.
Twizzles with problems in every part by Vika and she almost fell out of the last third Set, problems with fixing positions again – not in time catched of free leg by Vika, not fixed arm position in second Set for Vika, Piruette by Vika in the second Set, not clean third Set of Twizzles by Vika (clean execution of third Set must be done to allow to count third Set like Feature). So only change of sides should be counted – and one Level reduction for a Piruette – so they should get Level 1.
I am not sure why six judges gave GOE 0 – I think that number of mistakes were too high for GOE 0.
Edges light or not done in both Paso parts and Step Sequence. I am surprised that Nikita got Key Point 2 counted in Paso Doble Pattern because…
Rules describes that Open Mohawk - “A Mohawk in which the heel of the free foot is placed on the ice at the inner side of the skating foot, the angle between the two feet being optional. Following the weight transfer, the immediate position of the new free foot is behind the heel of the new skating foot (examples: the Man’s Steps 8 and 9 and the Lady’s Steps 12 and 13 in the Fourteenstep).“
Key Point 2 in Paso Doble Pattern looks to be problematic for almost every man, it is too often not counted for not visible edges but also for not perfect change of foot. What Nikita created in an attemp for Open Mohawk was scratched (not sure with right translation into English) edge, feet with big distance in between – simply I would never count this Mohawk like well done – but Technical panel counted this, surprising.
Both Key Point 3 with Vika’s free leg bent in knee so hardly before the swing movement of free leg to the front – I don’t think that this is how the swing movement should be executed, Nikita’s swing is better. But also these Key Points were counted.
As to presentation – the couple will probably look better in Waltz next season. Spanish dances are not their cup of tea and it is very visible. Nikita is able to produce a dynamic moves, sometimes very dynamic, but like in case of Nick Buckland dynamics don’t means passion and like Nick – Nikita doesn’t have a posture of Spanish dancer. The whole dance lacks passion and tension, also I don’t have feeling that the couple reacts at each other (but last thing can be because of short term relationship.)
What I don’t agree with – and maybe it is partly a problem of a little bit gentle music as well, the couple is doing Paso Doble steps so gently, carefully and in slower mode that it already looks like Golden Waltz more than Paso Doble. It needs to be sharp and dynamic. Why is Nikita dynamic in the first part of the dance and then coming to Paso Doble part he starts to be soft like skating to Ave Maria?
BIG RHYTHM ISSUES!
S&K are definitelly talented and with hard work in next few years they can be one of medal contenders. The reality is that most of couples really need a lot of time to gell and get the quality they are capable of like a couple. I&Z are simply an exception – a rarity.
The more I watch S&K the more I appreciate that I&Z‘s gelling goes so fast, with synchro problems which are not sooo visible (about 70 percent less visible than in case of S&K). Also I&Z have many things to improve, but they definitelly don’t look like new couple (also in comparison with Vika & Nikita who looks like talented but newly formed couple) and presentation of I&Z already leaves a strong impression in both SD and FD.
Judges can really influence the result a lot with GOE and Component score…
If you look at Base value it would look like…
M&K – 28.20 points
W&P and H&B – 26.70 points
C&B – 25.20 points
R&R and H&D – 24.70 points
S&K – 23.20 points
Z&G – 22.70 points
With more attentive calls thanks to Twizzles M&K would get 27.20, H&B 25.70 and S&K (also thanks to Key Point 2 not well done) 21.20.
GOE and Component score helped S&K and Z&G to get better placement.
I don’t think Weaver & Poje would be weaker than Chock & Bates, but this Technical panel looks to be very attentive in most of time, with Technical panels at different Grand Prix which were more “kind“ to some dance couples – W&P would get higher score.
I agree that the real comparison with other dance couples will be done at Grand Prix Final.
NHK and CoC scores are not inflated like other grand prixs, probably because federations doesn't have strong dance teams.
Just finished to watch SD.
S/K were ok, maybe I expected something worse from them. Of course they were out of synchro like 30% of the dance, and Vika lost some levels on Twizzles but it still was ok. And IMO, scoring was generous (I mean PCS). Again. I don't like 2 things about them:
1) Vika is visibly weaker technically than Nikita. If even I can see the contrast I'm sure judges and trainers see it too. She's progressing but not fast enough.
2) When they're skating I only see Nikita on the ice. It's like he's running around her with flailing arms, and she just do what she can to catch up with his fast pace. That's probably the reason why she make mistakes too, she always tries to skate faster and faster. But they're both not consistent enough to do requared elements on this speed. They lost a lot of levels. Their BV was 23.2 points, it's 1.5 lower than BV of both japanese dance teams! Terrible. No amount of blue eyes can make a team champions, they need to work and work hard.
And I still don't like their SD. What a mess :no:
W/P didn't impress me. They were good of course, but nowhere near their best.
M/H and C/B were ok. nothing special though.
I liked Z/G more than any other team today, despite their lowest TES.
P.S. I have a feeling M/K will be ahead of C/B tomorrow. If only they will not screw their twizzles.
S/K were ok, maybe I expected something worse from them. Of course they were out of synchro like 30% of the dance, and Vika lost some levels on Twizzles but it still was ok. And IMO, scoring was generous (I mean PCS). Again. I don't like 2 things about them:
1) Vika is visibly weaker technically than Nikita. If even I can see the contrast I'm sure judges and trainers see it too. She's progressing but not fast enough.
2) When they're skating I only see Nikita on the ice. It's like he's running around her with flailing arms, and she just do what she can to catch up with his fast pace. That's probably the reason why she make mistakes too, she always tries to skate faster and faster. But they're both not consistent enough to do requared elements on this speed. They lost a lot of levels. Their BV was 23.2 points, it's 1.5 lower than BV of both japanese dance teams! Terrible. No amount of blue eyes can make a team champions, they need to work and work hard.
And I still don't like their SD. What a mess :no:
W/P didn't impress me. They were good of course, but nowhere near their best.
M/H and C/B were ok. nothing special though.
I liked Z/G more than any other team today, despite their lowest TES.
P.S. I have a feeling M/K will be ahead of C/B tomorrow. If only they will not screw their twizzles.
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- Joined
- Oct 31, 2009
Presuming that all couples skate well and get their levels at the GPF, I would have W/P and P/C at the top (in either order) over C/B. Both W/P and P/C really capture the spirit and the flavor of the dance; C/B, although they're skating very, very well, don't. In particular, Evan Bates has a ways to go to catch up with Andrew Poje and Guillaume Cizeron, presentation-wise.
I'm waiting to see if any of the blonde ladies pull out the temporary dark hair dye for the big competitions, like Barbara Fusar-Poli did for the 2002 Olympics OD.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
I don't think so. P&C got 64.06 for their SD at TEB and 102.60 for their FD.
W&P got 67.51 for their SD here. Let's see how much W&P will score for their FD, but I think the fight will be between them and C&B.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
True but P&C improved their scores going from China to France. W&P were neutral here. So only C&B we can say for sure have improved their scores in a neutral field, so to speak.
Therefore, I guess we have to wait and see what happenes in GPF finals. My guess is the battle for gold is between W&P and C&B, with P&C and Shibs close to them also. As of now it looks like P&C more likely to win bronze, and I think they will be very happy with that, with Shibs out of the podium.
Who knows though? :think:
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2012
The scores improved, but it was more of a lucky circumstance. The marks for the top 4 at Rostelecom were very inflated because they gave ridiculously high marks to S/K, and then they had to find greater scores for the three teams above them.
I agree. My bet for top 3: W/P, C/B and then P/C. I hate to say that, but top 3 is pretty much predictable. Of course if everyone's healthy and will not do stupid mistakes.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
Yes. So, that's why I'm saying that GPF will tell us more but the battle seems between these two couples.
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2008
I'm really torn about who I view as the top, number one team overall. I'm never going to be a Chock/Bates fan; while I can see they've improved, I don't like that they were overmarked at SA and then again at COR (though blancanieves raises a good point about the latter competition). I'm not entirely sure that I see Weaver/Poje at the top either, but for me they make more sense than Chock/Bates. I just think their programs this season are so dated, not the material they needed this year. It's probably too early for Papadakis/Cizeron to stand at the top, though they are my favorite of these three teams. I just don't want to see a situation of too much success happening too quickly that they can't maintain it as they continue to improve in seasons to come.
Here at NHK, I did like Weaver/Poje's SD better this time around, but I still don't like the rotational lift at the end, and they still don't seem to have the spark I was expecting from them. But clearly the class of the field.
Love Coomes/Buckland's SD! Some great choreography; not necessarily sure how much of a Spanish vibe I get from them, but I love the program. It got a little frantic at times, so clearly room to improve, but I liked it.
Monko/Khaliavin have good SS, but I was so distracted during their performance. Her posture (for me there is something weird about the way she holds herself on the ice), his facial expressions, weird music cuts...I think overall they are probably better than the programs they have this season.
Hawayek/Baker were much better here than at COR, but still room to improve. They were sharper and more spirited here, but they can be even more staccato, they can add more pizzazz. But along with Hubbell/Donohue they are my favorite American teams currently competing.
(I really miss Davis/White, Pechalat/Bourzat and Virtue/Moir)
Here at NHK, I did like Weaver/Poje's SD better this time around, but I still don't like the rotational lift at the end, and they still don't seem to have the spark I was expecting from them. But clearly the class of the field.
Love Coomes/Buckland's SD! Some great choreography; not necessarily sure how much of a Spanish vibe I get from them, but I love the program. It got a little frantic at times, so clearly room to improve, but I liked it.
Monko/Khaliavin have good SS, but I was so distracted during their performance. Her posture (for me there is something weird about the way she holds herself on the ice), his facial expressions, weird music cuts...I think overall they are probably better than the programs they have this season.
Hawayek/Baker were much better here than at COR, but still room to improve. They were sharper and more spirited here, but they can be even more staccato, they can add more pizzazz. But along with Hubbell/Donohue they are my favorite American teams currently competing.
(I really miss Davis/White, Pechalat/Bourzat and Virtue/Moir)
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
Talk about de gustibus...They are definitely on my Irrational Can't Stand list. I don't know what it is, but they just tend to ANNOY me when I watch them. Part of it is, yes, her posture. A good chunk is choreographic--I tend to loathe their programs. Last year's Marseilles Hooker Dance. This year's Eurotrash Disco Handel. They're the very definition, to me, of UberTraumaDrama. Give me some context or a storyline instead of just random overwroughtnesss--it would be a real change of pace with them.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
I love "Irrational can't stand list".
No, seriously though, I wasn't speaking about programs per se but them as skaters. There is something about them which I like. They're interesting.
Unfortunately I can't love them, no matter the programs or how good they might become, if she keeps that posture.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
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The other part of Irrational Can't Stand list inclusion for M&K for me is that nothing they are doing on the ice, not their costumes, not their expressions, not their movements, connects to the music for me.
The best thing in their FD for me was their final step sequence, which had nice power and edging, but other than that, I would rather go to the dentist than watch them at this point in their careers.
The best thing in their FD for me was their final step sequence, which had nice power and edging, but other than that, I would rather go to the dentist than watch them at this point in their careers.
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2007
It's not about the actual SD performance, so slightly off-topic I guess... as some of you know, I love Kaitlyn/Andrew so much, enjoy their skating, programs, costumes, music choices, normally. And sometimes my eyes literally attached to Andrew's feet and edgework.
However, during their SD I just could not concentrate on their program and wondered why? then realized. Because of too much decorations on both sides of his pants! Yes, his skating is gorgeous, he looks gorgeous as always, but his costume is too gorgeous for me this time. Can he take off/tone down some volume of of sparkling stones on its sides, please?
It just amazes me to see that as model-like strikinly beautiful woman in red dress as Kaitlyn appears 'pale' on ice, beside her partner, due to his costume...
ETA: Another such example for me was Stefania Berton's gorgeous gold dress looked 'pale' beside Ondřej Hotárek's YELLOW pants! in 2013-14 season's SP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z82ZMksKnUc
However, during their SD I just could not concentrate on their program and wondered why? then realized. Because of too much decorations on both sides of his pants!
Yes, his skating is gorgeous, he looks gorgeous as always, but his costume is too gorgeous for me this time. Can he take off/tone down some volume of of sparkling stones on its sides, please? It just amazes me to see that as model-like strikinly beautiful woman in red dress as Kaitlyn appears 'pale' on ice, beside her partner, due to his costume...
ETA: Another such example for me was Stefania Berton's gorgeous gold dress looked 'pale' beside Ondřej Hotárek's YELLOW pants! in 2013-14 season's SP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z82ZMksKnUc
