2015 Cup of China Free Dance
- Thread starter dorispulaski
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2012
I am most unimpressed with dance this year. Though anyone of four teams could win I guess the gold and anyone of 3 Russian teams could sneak on the podium though I don't think gold _ I know weird scenario. I am just not a big fan of C/L; Chock and Bates must be reelingto be beaten by the faded stars C and L - Looks like Cand L are in the mix of mediocrity for gold.
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2014
The technical panel consisted of 2 Russians (the Referee and the Technical Controller), one Japanese (Technical Specialist) and one Italian _ the Assistant Technical Specialist. It's quite odd that a top team with high PCS would get 2 level 2s. In dance, when the technique is so-so, the artistry (program components) is adversely affected: technique and artistry are so interdependent ... interconnected.
Last edited:
When C/L compete, rink-side feedback is that they are slower than the leaders of the field; and this competition was no exception. Shouldn't that lack of speed be reflected in the skating skills marks? I noticed that their base value is 3 points higher than C/B so if I'm understanding the scoring correctly, their technical score should have been higher; but C/B should have had higher PCS scores.
Speed is a very significant aspect of skating skills. In general, however, I would say it is reflected most powerfully in dance within the higher grades of execution upon many elements. (C&B received many pluses here). Speed is not the sole skating skill. And it is far from the only aspect of Program Components. IMO, C&L's strength has ALWAYS been PCS. They are storytellers. From very, very early in their senior careers with Love Story in 2009. If they manage to defeat any team technically, that team knows they are in major trouble.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2012
No surprise there but I think they are lucky Weaver and Poje area also unimpressive and the Russians are too new or too recovering from injuries as well as the French are injured. As for the Italians they are still beatable.
The technical panel was harsh on C/B, but they need to skate the programs in such a way that they withstand scrutiny. They had Judy Blumberg, an American, as Tech Specialist in SA and they lost levels in the FD with her as well. S/K won the TES there. So something needs to be worked out in the FD. They made mistakes here in the SD, that explains that part. I think both programs are lovely and have potential. Though I agree that something about the ending of the FD is not working, it seems too busy perhaps? Igor knows his stuff and I'm sure he's already thinking of improving it. And yeah, that they're struggling a bit now doesn't make C/B a hopeless case that will never do well in any competition again and it doesn't make Shpilband an incompetent hack either. For whatever reason, sometimes things don't come together immediately and take longer to work through. It happens.
C/L are very polished when they're on and they deservedly won here. Congrats! They have entertaining programs. It's true, though, that they tend to skate "small" and that Anna in particular doesn't have the greatest skating skills. That's something that sometimes trips them up later in the season when the other teams who are faster and have more power on the ice come out polished and with all guns blazing. They tend to look diminished in comparison.
IMO I/Z's placement and scores were about right. I'm not sure the SD works, the choreo is not strong enough at the moment to pull off the unusual music. They produced a nervous skate of the FD and it showed where their choice of music and theme is a risk: It's good material, but if they don't give a totally convincing performance of it, it tends to fall flat with audiences (and presumably judges).
ETA: Oops, should have looked up the tech panel on my own instead of believing other posts. But the point stands: Nothing weird happened here IMO. C/B were already having trouble with TES in the FD at SA, so that's something they need to improve.
C/L are very polished when they're on and they deservedly won here. Congrats! They have entertaining programs. It's true, though, that they tend to skate "small" and that Anna in particular doesn't have the greatest skating skills. That's something that sometimes trips them up later in the season when the other teams who are faster and have more power on the ice come out polished and with all guns blazing. They tend to look diminished in comparison.
IMO I/Z's placement and scores were about right. I'm not sure the SD works, the choreo is not strong enough at the moment to pull off the unusual music. They produced a nervous skate of the FD and it showed where their choice of music and theme is a risk: It's good material, but if they don't give a totally convincing performance of it, it tends to fall flat with audiences (and presumably judges).
ETA: Oops, should have looked up the tech panel on my own instead of believing other posts. But the point stands: Nothing weird happened here IMO. C/B were already having trouble with TES in the FD at SA, so that's something they need to improve.
Last edited:
The tech panel has nothing to do with PCS though. A level 2 element can still get great GOE and the team can still get great PCS because PCS doesn't just look at element quality. Unless there are obvious mistakes that caused an element to be called level 2, I don't see how PCS should be down. If one edge wasn't good that will maybe affect SS a little bit (though one wrong edge in a whole program probably doesn't affect it that much) but the other parts of PCS have less to do with the technical aspect and more woth how the dance and choreography is built.
Actually Anna & Luca have outscored their results on the GP at all three of the past World Championships. They have no home-field advantage on the Grand Prix (as opposed to all their major competition), and for years have been underrated heading into Worlds. However, when Worlds arrives, they skate clean and move up. Tah-dah!
Chock and Bates have someone else to worry about, and they are in their own backyard.
This discussion is crazy, either people don't know the subject they're talking about, or they're just trolling.
First of all, referee is not having any vote in technical panel calls, it's only between TC, TS and ATS.
Second, there was no russians in technical panel (Halina GORDON POLTORAK is from Poland, Ayako HIGASHINO is from Japan and Fabrizio PEDRAZZINI is from Italy). So stop it.
About tech panel being harsh on Chock/Bates: she performed 4 clean turns in diagonal step sequence. That's enough for level 3. However, they had only 2 different dance holds considered for level (Killian and Foxtrot). The waltz hold (at 3:23 and 3:30 on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYlMBkLyn6o) was not established and held long enough (it was like a couple of milliseconds). So according to Charactiristics of Levels Style B step sequence should be called level 2. They did the exact same thing at Skate America, lost a level because of the same reason, and didn't change ANYTHING.
Their SeSq had enough holds considered for level, but their one-foot section was done with flat edges. That's the reason it was only level 2 (two clean turns, one of them being double twizzle).
So I don't get what people are complaining about.
First of all, referee is not having any vote in technical panel calls, it's only between TC, TS and ATS.
Second, there was no russians in technical panel (Halina GORDON POLTORAK is from Poland, Ayako HIGASHINO is from Japan and Fabrizio PEDRAZZINI is from Italy). So stop it.
About tech panel being harsh on Chock/Bates: she performed 4 clean turns in diagonal step sequence. That's enough for level 3. However, they had only 2 different dance holds considered for level (Killian and Foxtrot). The waltz hold (at 3:23 and 3:30 on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYlMBkLyn6o) was not established and held long enough (it was like a couple of milliseconds). So according to Charactiristics of Levels Style B step sequence should be called level 2. They did the exact same thing at Skate America, lost a level because of the same reason, and didn't change ANYTHING.
Their SeSq had enough holds considered for level, but their one-foot section was done with flat edges. That's the reason it was only level 2 (two clean turns, one of them being double twizzle).
So I don't get what people are complaining about.
Last edited:
Ice dancing is depressing this season. No team that makes youwhen these teams skate. How depressing if C/L somehow win another World title. That will equal D/W and V/M who were light years better then them. And people are always trashing Madison for her skating skills but Anna is not any better to be honest.
I wouldn't say the field is depressing, but there's been a drop in quality after D/W and V/M retired. People used to bag on them and on Zueva/Shpilband for not always bringing great originality. But now the dancers don't bring originality either and the dancing is inferior to boot. I guess it's exciting that the field is relatively fluid, but it's so fluid partly because there are no real standouts. W/P, C/L, C/B, B/S, S/S don't have the quality of prior champion pairs, though they all have their good sides. P/C won last year on the grounds of outstanding FD choreo and his strength as a dancer, but she doesn't quite match him (as many dance ladies atm seem not quite up to par.) and they have weaknesses as well. I/Z and S/K have potential, but they still have ways to go in their development. So IMO none of the current pairs is quite soup.
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2014
Well, I don't know exactly the purpose of the tech panel - to see that the protocols for techniques/elements/criteria are properly noted/observed in the judging process? Anyway, I don't necessarily say they are to be blamed for the anomaly (if you can call that) but what I am trying to do is to differentiate how different ice-dancing is from dance - one is primarily a sport, the other an art form (where sport's primary emphasis is winning, art has more to do with creating, expressing, and conveying a human experience thus dance is aptly viewed as a poetry in motion). In dance, technique and artistry are so interdependent _ if either one is questionable, the by-product or result is (presentation) is affected. I'm not an ice-dancer _ I was/am a dancer by training so I tend to view the performance from that perspective.
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2014
I have always wondered about the 'base values'. How are these developed ... calculated?
Technical panel makes calls: what element was performed and the level of difficulty of that element. They don't have anything to do with PCS and GOE, that's judges who mark grade of execution of each element and PCS.
The higher level of difficulty of executed elements, the higher base value. The difference of base value beetween different levels is determined by ISU.
Last edited:
I understand and appreciate what you are trying to do, except this is still a sport and scores matter. And a good chunk of the ice dance technique and what is judged is not the same as in dance, so if you wish to make comments on their artistry, keep it to the choreography and the emotion, and leave the tech out, because as you say, you know little about it. As do I. Whenever I don't understand why a certain element only got level 2 or level 3 or whatever, I ask. Snow obviously has very good knowledge of what levels are about, and C/B's step seq seemed choreographed that way (which is strange).
Basically it just seems wrong to me to say some of the judges' calls are strange when you don't understand what the tech panel is about.
(Also this probably comes across way harsher than I intend so I apologize in advance.)
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2014
Did I say 'strange'? I thought 'harsher', and it was. And yes, I don't pretend to know the technical side but I've noticed that ISU does put a lot of weight on PCS so I can't help wondering why it is so when obviously ice-dancing is more of a sport than art. I guess, it pretends to be an art form when it obviously from the way it has been handled it is not.
Why should I keep out from commenting on technique? Now, I call that strange since, obviously, technique is part of artistry. It is like ignoring techniques used in drawing/painting, what good will it do when obviously the very application of this element/technique determines the outcome of the exercise/effort.
Last edited:
Ok, you said odd, I was going by memory. I'm not saying you can't comment on tech, I'm just saying that I thought it was weird that you first say it was odd that they got level 2 when they are a top team, and then go on to say that you don't know tech. A top team can still get level 2s, they're not exempt. PCS builds over years, with consistency and experience and pushing from the federation. It's very subjective and that's hard because they want Ice Dance as a sport, yet this makes it still a matter of taste (to some respect) and that is a struggle all artistic sports have (artistic gymnastics, rhythmic gymnastics, etc). Doesn't make it less of a sport, but does affect credibility. But high PCS doesn't necessarily show that a team is great. Rather the team has to be great in order to receive high PCS, and even THEN there are other factors that play in which seem to be necessary to actually get them. And that's where a lot of people differ in opinion.
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2014
Yeah, in a way, I'm saying it is 'strange'. Judging in ice-dancing is convoluted and that is one reason why it has credibility issues.
Similar threads
- Sticky
- Sticky
- Sticky
- Sticky
