2015 Skate America Mens FS Oct 24

[satine]

I edited my post above, and will repeat here what I added:

"So IMO, Blades is not innocent when it comes to stirring up the pot in ways that are unnecessary."

Your opinion seems to be that Blades' posts were nothing but constructive. And I disagree.

I did not say everything was constructive, but that they were serious with their view point.

This is becoming a bit of a hair-splitting conversation(about an outcome I DON'T think is wrong, btw!), so I will leave it as is here

 

[Blades of Passion]

I would note that whether Shoma is a next-generation Takahashi is a vastly different topic from whether Shoma's SP and FS in Milwaukee should have won him the gold at 2015 Skate America.

A competition should be won by the athlete's performance at the actual competition.

When have I ever said otherwise.

The "next generation Takahashi" comparison was simply a statement of the talent Shoma is displaying that the judges are not yet scoring accurately as compared to someone like Max Aaron. He doesn't yet have the "reputation points" he will have 1 or 2 years from now.

How was his SP easier than Shoma's when he did a harder quad, a quad-triple at that, and Shoma failed to land his quad?

Stop saying "a harder quad" and "a quad triple at that". Those don't mean anything. Quad Sal is worth .2 more than Quad Toe, the choice of which one a skater does virtually never makes the difference. What actually makes a difference is Shoma doing a 4Toe and his jump combo in the bonus section, making his total base value for jumps worth a half point more. That's hardly the main part of having the harder SP, though. Shoma's SP is harder than Max's because of the choreography.

Also you said earlier that Max doubled a triple toe... where was that? If he had done a triple toe as part of either of his opening 2 combos his planned 3T later on would have been Zayaked.

He doesn't have a planned solo 3T. He has a planned 2A and he changed it to a 3T because of missing it in combination earlier. He rescued 1 point in base value from the earlier mistake that cost him 3 points. It's something he has always done when he misses the 3Toe in combination in his LP.

 

[ice coverage]

When have I ever said otherwise.

The "next generation Takahashi" comparison was simply a statement of the talent Shoma is displaying that the judges are not yet scoring accurately as compared to someone like Max Aaron. He doesn't yet have the "reputation points" he will have 1 or 2 years from now. ...

I guess you don't realize that you have just blatantly contradicted yourself.

For the record, I have nothing against Shoma. If/when he wins future GPs, good for him.
But I don't buy the arguments that he "should" have won the gold in Milwaukee.

As they say on Shark Tank, "And for those reasons, I'm out."

 

[MaxSwagg]

Ohh...Tara's feeling it!! :yay: I can agree with her too :thumbsup: Max is on it and he's outsmarting CoP along the way with that 3t

Whaaat! They showed men's?? I thought it was just going to be a repeat of the ladies! My dumb fault for not reading the guide info.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I guess you don't realize that you have just blatantly contradicted yourself.

No I haven't. I'm just pointing out how competitions get judged based on things aside from what the skaters actually do in the performance. People are often underscored or overscored based upon how big of a name they are and the politics/momentum behind them. That shouldn't be how it is, but that is the reality of the way things work out. This is Shoma's first year as a senior internationally and, even though he has much better skating skills than Max Aaron, the judges don't yet feel the "need" to acknowledge it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Your post is ugly and uninspiring.

Max is tired at the end because he's just done a long program, with a second half quad, and maintaining speed throughout.

I bet you couldn't even stroke around for 4.5 minutes without feeling exhausted.

I'm assuming you never competed at any elite level because nobody who did would ever make such an asinine comment as "I can't believe he *acts* all tired after that". :sarcasm:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Stop saying "a harder quad" and "a quad triple at that". Those don't mean anything. Quad Sal is worth .2 more than Quad Toe, the choice of which one a skater does virtually never makes the difference. What actually makes a difference is Shoma doing a 4Toe and his jump combo in the bonus section, making his total base value for jumps worth a half point more. That's hardly the main part of having the harder SP, though. Shoma's SP is harder than Max's because of the choreography.

Yes it's half a point more but doesn't change the fact that Max is doing a harder combo with a harder quad, whereas Uno is doing his triple toe in combination with his triple lutz. Surely you are aware that a 4-3 is harder to execute than a 3-3 (even if points wise it's worth the same in the long run doing 4-3T, solo triple vs. 3-3T, solo quad). Also I wouldn't be surprised if Max moved his 4S to the second half in his SP at some point, similar to how he's made the second half 4S adjustment in his FS.

And no matter how you cut it, a 4S is harder than a 4T - even if by 0.2. Just like a 3F is harder than a 3L. Do I need to go over the hierarchy of skating jumps with you, lol? I seem to recall you dismissing a 3T+3T in ladies as "super easy" but not having the same flippant remarks about a 3S+3T which is only worth a hair more. But suddenly when it's quads we're talking about, it's all equal difficulty in your eyes.

One more thing: if Shoma was so technically superior to Max, how do you explain their TES being so close together? Uno's technical layout is only effective if he hits the jumps cleanly, which he wasn't exactly doing. Again, this is what cost him the win. A more steady opening quad, or a more solid landing on the 3A+3T and he'd have the gold.

But that didn't happen.

Max got the gold.

 

[sabinfire]

Ohh...Tara's feeling it!! :yay: I can agree with her too :thumbsup: Max is on it and he's outsmarting CoP along the way with that 3t

Dude, Terry Gannon was SO LOUD when he was commentating the Men's FS on Saturday night. There was about 5 seconds of silence in the arena before Max Aaron was introduced, and I could hear Terry Gannon yapping about Max being the surprise leader, clear across the rink! I'm not even exaggerating in the slightest, I was almost a half-length of the arena away from the broadcasting booth, and he was clear as day! I saw others in the crowd looking at Gannon too, so it wasn't just me.

 

[chuckm]

Your post is ugly and uninspiring.

Max is tired at the end because he's just done a long program, with a second half quad, and maintaining speed throughout.

I bet you couldn't even stroke around for 4.5 minutes without feeling exhausted.

I'm assuming you never competed at any elite level because nobody who did would ever make such an asinine comment as "I can't believe he *acts* all tired after that". :sarcasm:

Most posters AREN'T athletes and don't pretend to be. BTW, it's against board rules to attack posters personally. You are WAY out of line.

Shoma did more ---- a quad combo and a 3-jump sequence at the end of his program and when he was done he smiled and just enjoyed his moment. It would have been great if Max could have done the same.

Incidentally, Max took a rest period in the middle of his performance where he stood around doing nothing. Shoma was on the move for the entire program, which was full of transitional moves.

Max got the gold thanks to superinflated PCS scores. His TR should never get as high as 7 and his IN under 8. He can jump, but the rest of his skating is rather meh. Shoma has the entire package.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yes [Shoma's SP jump layout is worth a half point more] but doesn't change the fact that Max is doing a harder combo.

Yeah, right off the top of his program, with no transitions and no real opening choreography. That's why he can do it. Either way, it doesn't matter. The scoring system does not reward harder combinations and everyone has known it for years. Shoma doing a 2Axel+half loop+3Flip at the end of his LP is really freaking hard and he doesn't receive any special bonus for it either.

I seem to recall you dismissing a 3T+3T in ladies as "super easy" but not having the same flippant remarks about a 3S+3T which is only worth a hair more.

The difference with 3T+3T is it's the exact same jump. The timing of that combo is so much easier. A quad is a different and massively more difficult jump, regardless if it's a 4S or 4T.

Yes, 3S+3T is still overly rewarded as well as compared to the harder Triple-Triples, but at least it is still more difficult than 3T+3T, and not just because 3S is worth .1 more in the scoring system. Hardly anyone does it anyway, so I've never had a chance to be flippant about it. There's never been a competitor like Sotnikova who does that easier combo and then still somehow outscores Carolina Kostner doing a wonderful program with 3Flip+3Toe.

A more steady opening quad, or a more solid landing on the 3A+3T and he'd have the gold.

Sure, going along with exactly how the judges scored it, which you always take as the WORD OF GOD. I don't. You can make these pointless conjectures for ages, like saying Johnny Weir wouldn't have "lost" 2008 Nationals to Evan Lysacek if he had thrown in a single toeloop somewhere. It's completely beside the point. Bad judging is bad judging. These guys didn't need to do anything more to win, they deservedly already did win and their competitor was overscored.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Most posters AREN'T athletes and don't pretend to be. BTW, it's against board rules to attack posters personally. You are WAY out of line.

Shoma did more ---- a quad combo and a 3-jump sequence at the end of his program and when he was done he smiled and just enjoyed his moment. It would have been great if Max could have done the same.

Incidentally, Max took a rest period in the middle of his performance where he stood around doing nothing. Shoma was on the move for the entire program, which was full of transitional moves.

Max got the gold thanks to superinflated PCS scores. His TR should never get as high as 7 and his IN under 8. He can jump, but the rest of his skating is rather meh. Shoma has the entire package.

Whoa, cool your jets buddy. I'm not attacking you personally. You're the one saying that Max is acting like he's exhausted after a 4.5 minute program and called his skating ugly and uninspiring, and then rather ironically say I'm personally attacking you.

And now you're getting sensitive because I rightfully called you out for a remark like that. Its fine if you objectively criticize skaters, and even think things like Shoma is currently the total package... but making comments like "Max acts all tired" is calling into question if Max is legitimately tired after a program with two quads and axels and 4.5 minutes of skating, which made me call into question if you would even understand what a 4.5 minute program like that does to a skater.

As many have pointed out, Max's scores weren't that much higher than he got for a program with errors in Japan recently. And if anything Shoma got way over scored as well. Like I said I would have scored them around 77 for Max and 81 for Uno, which still would have given Aaron the win.

Also Shoma had a rest period too, after his 3S which was about the length of Max's.

 

[sabinfire]

We've only just completed SkAm and people are already flipping their lids. I can't wait for the rest of the season!

 

[auser]

Phil threw shade at Shoma too:



Also:



So not getting what Shoma's costume has to do with anything...

Also, I don't disagree that Jason had costly TES mistakes, but why did he not bother to mention that Jason got the highest PCS (but mentioning Max got the 3rd highest?), which is also a factor in him getting bronze (though people not doing well played a role).

But okay, people had disastrous programs. Why isn't Jason given credit for not having his own problem skate? Even with his tech mistakes, he still managed to get the 3rd highest TES. hwell:

Honestly, I think Phil just got excited about a U.S. man winning Skate America that he didn't bother to state much beyond that.

ETA: Okay, I get it now. Phil's point is that Shoma and Jason's outfits were super sparkly but Max, sans costume sparkles, sparked cause of his skating. But still....the metaphor falls flat because it's not as if Shoma skated badly (he skated GREAT) and besides the jump errors Jason's performance was great.

Great post Mrs P. If the current sport of figure skating had the earning potential of the 1994 -2000 era, I would be tempted to wonder if Phil was looking for a career shift to PR rather than journalism.

 

[Rissa]

Guys guys, God knows I'm not a fan of Aaron but are we really going to hold against skaters (again) that they are/look tired after a skate? There's lots of legitimate reservations, but that? Cmon.

 

[Interspectator]

We've only just completed SkAm and people are already flipping their lids. I can't wait for the rest of the season!

I have many, many lids, just waiting to flip.

 

[auser]

We've only just completed SkAm and people are already flipping their lids. I can't wait for the rest of the season!

haha, been thinking the same thing. Glad interest seems to be high though. Hope you had fun in Milwaukee. Enjoyed your on site posts.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yeah, right off the top of his program, with no transitions and no real opening choreography. That's why he can do it. Either way, it doesn't matter.

Compare the openings of Max's SP and Shoma's FS and tell me if Shoma has more opening choreography than Max, and transitions going into his opening quad.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Guys guys, God knows I'm not a fan of Aaron but are we really going to hold against skaters (again) that they are/look tired after a skate? There's lots of legitimate reservations, but that? Cmon.

Not to mention, Max didn't even look as tired as chuckm was saying.

 

[karne]

We've only just completed SkAm and people are already flipping their lids. I can't wait for the rest of the season!

Called it, didn't I? Mind you, I didn't expect the head-exploding to get quite so vile and disgusting...

Not to mention, Max didn't even look as tired as chuckm was saying.

I actually thought he looked amazing, ready to go round again if required.



I've always thought the biggest mistake of Max's career was that his breakthrough performance involved beating precious fan-favourite Jeremy. (Who, I might add, was very happy for Max on social media this weekend! ) It meant that instead of exploding onto the scene and making people like him straight off the bat, he instantly had a very large group of vocal and aggressive detractors, right from the outset. The sort of people that gloated when he was left off the Olympic team. The sort of people who were actively posting on their social media that they hoped he fell and skated badly at Worlds. The sort of people who, just like BoP, tear his skating to shreds simply because he beat their favourites.

And then he made another mistake, when he was actually happy to go to WTT this year, and had to deal with people angrily denouncing his selection, with one of his own Team USA teammates retweeting negative remarks on his social media. And yet, he's always been classy, always been calm and polite and respectful, always been admiring of his teammates and what they can do. And it is ridiculous that even in jest I have to call those things "mistakes".

Shoma was happy. He will know the mistakes he made this weekend. He made a great Grand Prix debut and has a fine and promising future. But this weekend, he was not the best skater. And I would say that he probably knew that. Knew it, and accepted it.

What I saw from Max this weekend was a level of self-confidence that I have never seen from him before. Even popping the back end of the opening combination in the FS didn't seem to faze him, he just got on with it. And that bodes well, both for the rest of this season, and the rest of his career. I am very much looking forward to it. He has been the whipping boy for so long, it would be so nice for him to turn the tables.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The sort of people who, just like BoP, tear his skating to shreds simply because he beat their favourites.

Oh no, don't pull me into your circus. I'll criticize anyone's skating where I see it lacking.

People are happy for Max and it's great that he just did his best competition in forever. I'm not going to let the wool be pulled over my eyes about his deficiencies, though. People think there's been a huge improvement to his overall actual skating just because of his new musical choices and his rebounding consistency, but I am not going to fall for that manipulative Imitation Game/Theory of Everything mediocrity.