2015 Skate America Mens FS Oct 24

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Shoma doing a 2Axel+half loop+3Flip at the end of his LP is really freaking hard and he doesn't receive any special bonus for it either.

That's a great combo but it's still just a double-triple series. Max's 3Z-3S is technically harder and was much better executed (though to be fair it's not as close to the end as Uno's).

Watching the skates yet again, I also notice that a lot of Uno's transitions are spread eagle-types and he could incorporate more complex turns (counters, brackets, twizzles) outside of the footwork sequences.

Max actually does have transitions, unlike what people are saying but my issue is that he doesn't complete them or make them crisp and big and throws them in for the sake of it (like his lunge going into his 3T or his falling leaf before his 2A). But it's wrong to say his program lacks them - he just doesn't execute them very well. So a low TR score is justified but I disagree with those who say he doesn't *have* them. He just needs to complete them better.

Uno also doesn't get the height on his jumps that Max gets (compared their lutzes and loops for instance). He does however get much greater flow, and runout, and gets more into his knees in his basic skating. Uno's arms and upper body are significantly more refined than Aaron and of course his spins are wayyyy better.

Overall Uno is better than Max but I don't think he's the pseudo Takahashi that people seem to label him as to justify mid 80s PCS.

 

[karne]

Oh no, don't pull me into your circus. I'll criticize anyone's skating where I see it lacking.

People are happy for Max and it's great that he just did his best competition in forever. I'm not going to let the wool be pulled over my eyes about his deficiencies, though. People think there's been a huge improvement to his overall actual skating just because of his new musical choices and his rebounding consistency, but I am not going to fall for that manipulative Imitation Game/Theory of Everything mediocrity.

People think there's been a huge improvement in his skating because there has been, and all your irrational hatred in the world is simply not going to hide that.

Oh, and Max does have a 3F. A pretty clean one, too. Got a couple of !s for it last season but pretty sure he didn't get any e calls. It was actually the third jump pass of his FS. I don't know why it's not in yet. I expect it to be by season's end.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Oh no, don't pull me into your circus. I'll criticize anyone's skating where I see it lacking.

I'm not going to let the wool be pulled over my eyes about his deficiencies, though.

Right... And I suppose you don't find anything lacking in Uno... Or, dare I say, your new golden boy, Pitkeev?

"HE WON! You guys...HE WON! Everyone be quiet - Adian is skating!!!! Take a seat Max!"... Followed by Max winning gold.

 

[Rissa]

People think there's been a huge improvement in his skating because there has been, and all your irrational hatred in the world is simply not going to hide that.

Considering who this is coming from...

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Oh, and Max does have a 3F. A pretty clean one, too. Got a couple of !s for it last season but pretty sure he didn't get any e calls. It was actually the third jump pass of his FS. I don't know why it's not in yet. I expect it to be by season's end.

Oh, but haven't you heard? Not including a 3F is an error that should be counted against Max!

Which is hilarious, given Pitkeev doesn't include a 3F and BoP for some odd reason says nothing about that, lol.

 

[Jaana]

Aaron has good jumps, but presentation (artistry) is not there much present in music interpretation. Maybe he should follow Brown' s example and do stretching exercises choreographed to the music. That I would call choreographic artistry, but so what, if that does the trick .

 

[gravy]

Oh no, don't pull me into your circus. I'll criticize anyone's skating where I see it lacking.

People are happy for Max and it's great that he just did his best competition in forever. I'm not going to let the wool be pulled over my eyes about his deficiencies, though. People think there's been a huge improvement to his overall actual skating just because of his new musical choices and his rebounding consistency, but I am not going to fall for that manipulative Imitation Game/Theory of Everything mediocrity.

Yet you fell for that 50 Shades of Grey trash, even calling it a "near-masterpiece".

 

[Matilda]

I agree with this. Han Yan's Free program was not engaging at all. For his SP I do like how he's exhibiting a lot more personality, but it still comes across as awkward because he's not exactly a showman but is trying to be in his SP. A for effort though in the SP, but C or worse in the LP.

The Chinese Feds seriously have to get someone else to do choreography for Han Yan. He and Lori are clearly not on the same page at all. It is a waste of the incredibly talent of Han Yan to have him skate to mediocre, uninspired choreography.

 

[Interspectator]

The Chinese Feds seriously have to get someone else to do choreography for Han Yan. He and Lori are clearly not on the same page at all. It is a waste of the incredibly talent of Han Yan to have him skate to mediocre, uninspired choreography.

What about some dramatic Russian Choreographers? Any ideas?

 

[Mrs. P]

Peter Tchernyshev would be awesome. Give Hanee his own "Manfried Symphony!" Averbach would be good, though he doesn't really choreo for non-Russians.

Phillip Mills might be interesting.

 

[Interspectator]

I'd like to add this Mura picture so we can remember his OTHER costume...which was a very nice costume.

 

[LRK]

Peter Tchernyshev would be awesome. Give Hanee his own "Manfried Symphony!" Averbach would be good, though he doesn't really choreo for non-Russians.

Phillip Mills might be interesting.

Not Russian, but what about Maxim Stavisky? I'd really like to see Han do something dramatic.... and, dare I say, with a little... power? I thought, when I heard he was doing Romeo & Juliet that this might be it... but then I didn't know it would be this dismal dirge...

 

[Krunchii]

The Chinese Feds seriously have to get someone else to do choreography for Han Yan. He and Lori are clearly not on the same page at all. It is a waste of the incredibly talent of Han Yan to have him skate to mediocre, uninspired choreography.

Seriously he is so poorly packaged, he's such a big talent but every season his programs are just meh to me. His Exhibition here was one of the best things I've seen him done in a while, he should turn it into a competitive program.

 

[ice coverage]

Guys guys, God knows I'm not a fan of Aaron but are we really going to hold against skaters (again) that they are/look tired after a skate? There's lots of legitimate reservations, but that? Cmon.

Not to mention, Max didn't even look as tired as chuckm was saying.

I believe that someone (either a mod or chuckm himself) has deleted chuckm's original post criticizing Max for looking tired after his FS. (I know that I read chuckm's post last night, but now I can't find it.)

Anyhoooo, my two cents on this discussion:

Shoma was visibly sweating at the end of his FS, as was Max at the end of his. So I don't think either man looked as fresh as a daisy. (And I agree with others that it is unreasonable to expect a skater to look as fresh as a daisy after a FS.)

Emotional relief -- not physical fatigue -- is mostly what Max's body language after his FS signaled to me.
Going into the FS, Max had several different kinds of mental pressure on him. Black Swan was a bold choice for his FS, and he wanted both to skate clean and to show that he is not just a jumping machine. He had won the SP with PBs -- so a great FS could mean more PBs ... and/or the podium ... and/or even the gold. No wonder he looked relieved when he completed a strong FS.
(He openly acknowledged after his FS that he bobbled the double axel near the end because [I'm paraphrasing] he was (prematurely) thinking about the success of his skate so far.)

"We left it all on the ice," was Charlie White's mantra to the media after almost every SD and FD. And I don't recall that Charlie ever received a word of criticism for using up every ounce of physical and mental energy in the process of competing his heart out.
(Quite the contrary. Charlie's comment always was much admired as a shining example of D/W's desire to be the absolutely best that they could be.)

---

... What I saw from Max this weekend was a level of self-confidence that I have never seen from him before. Even popping the back end of the opening combination in the FS didn't seem to faze him, he just got on with it. And that bodes well, both for the rest of this season, and the rest of his career. I am very much looking forward to it....

I like what Hersh wrote about Max in the post-FS article cited earlier:

... his insistence on working the performance aspect of his skating clearly has made a difference in the way he feels about himself and has also had a positive effect on the confidence in his jumping, once the only thing he cared about. ...​

 

[FlattFan]

Max made 3 moderate mistakes - doubling a 3Toe in the LP, only doing only a 2Axel instead of a 3Flip, and nearly falling on his double axel.

Shoma had 2 mistakes in the LP. Messy landing on the first quad and the 3a-3t.

Max did 2 4s and 2 3a. So how can doubling a 3t be a mistake? 3t would be a mistake.

 

[qwertyskates]

Seriously he is so poorly packaged, he's such a big talent but every season his programs are just meh to me. His Exhibition here was one of the best things I've seen him done in a while, he should turn it into a competitive program.

I agree, I'm almost in tears watching his Exhibition, he looks so free, as if he can finally be what he truly is, not packaged in "glamour", and the result is a thing of beauty.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Shoma had 2 mistakes in the LP. Messy landing on the first quad and the 3a-3t.

Max did 2 4s and 2 3a. So how can doubling a 3t be a mistake? 3t would be a mistake.

Apparently Max is supposed to do a 4S+3T at the beginning and then his solo 3T should have been a 2A. Instead, it ended up being a 4S+2T and replacing the 2A with a 3T. The thing is, that's not an "error" as in a visible error that mars the program, and BoP was trying to pass it off as such. There's no way Max would have had enough room to execute a 3T after his opening 4S that close to the boards, so it was smart of him to avoid it. It was simply another attempt to make Max's errors seem more prominent than they actually were... like suggesting Max made an error by putting in a 2A instead of a 3F (for which he tends to get edge calls... and risks a 30% deduction and -GOE if he lips -- obviously anyone would opt for the easier 2A that garners the same points as a triple lip "e"). Again, playing it smart. Again, no actual "moderate mistake".

I guess that means Javier/Kovtun/Aaron/Pitkeev,etc. are incapable of ever doing clean skates because replacing the triple flip with a double axel is an "error" in BoP's books. :sarcasm:

 

[Winnie_20]

I'd like to add this Mura picture so we can remember his OTHER costume...which was a very nice costume.

Was that his SP costume? I don't remember... I am catching up with the men's FS (the ones that weren't shown on Eurosport), and just saw Mura come in the rink with his FS costume. I'm just sitting here going (Yes, this was the first time I've seen it.) There simply are no words. Thanks for sharing this link, it's good to see how awesome he looks in good costumes.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yet you fell for that 50 Shades of Grey trash, even calling it a "near-masterpiece".

50 Shades of Grey, the film, IS a post-modern near masterpiece. It uses the seeming ridiculousness of the narrative as an expression of complex human emotion. The director, a woman in her mid 40's, married to a 21 year old guy and received tons of hate about it...even though it's not uncommon for Men in their 40's to marry 21 year old women. Her viewpoint and experiences in life, her so-called "unnatural" lifestyle, very much informed the film and shaped it into something much more than what superficially only looks like a lurid kind of "Twilight" spin-off.

But now we must move on to discussing skating.

People think there's been a huge improvement in his skating because there has been, and all your irrational hatred in the world is simply not going to hide that.

I have no irrational hatred. Max's skating has not improved from the level he showed at 2013 Nationals. His skating skills have become a little better but his presentation is now worse. He doesn't move with the music or fully extend any of his movements or sell the programs. In 2013 at least he showed real excitement and got into the actual choreography.

LOOK at his movement and the way he moves in relation to the music and his expressions. He has not improved in that realm. He is just skating to "classier" music now and attempting to mimic "classier" kinds of movements. Some people seem to think this makes his skating inherently better. It doesn't.

Which is hilarious, given Pitkeev doesn't include a 3F and BoP for some odd reason says nothing about that, lol.

Pitkeev didn't skate well enough in the LP for something like that to matter (although I think he should have finished 4th overall). Shoma and Max were obviously ahead of him in the end, no question. Why would I bother talking about that? You are again just using straw-man statements and talking about completely irrelevant things, to make it look as if you are "more right" when you aren't at all.

Max not having a 3F, as compared to another skater who does, absolutely needs to be counted against him. Nobody in their right mind can say otherwise, so just stop. It's annoying.

Max did 2 4s and 2 3a. So how can doubling a 3t be a mistake? 3t would be a mistake.

Does nobody bother reading? He needed to do 3T in combination and he didn't. He added a solo 3T later in the program, instead of his planned 2A, because of that mistake.

 

[karne]

50 Shades of Grey, the film, IS a post-modern near masterpiece. It uses the seeming ridiculousness of the narrative as an expression of complex human emotion. The director, a woman in her mid 40's, married to a 21 year old guy and received tons of hate about it...even though it's not uncommon for Men in their 40's to marry 21 year old women. Her viewpoint and experiences in life, her so-called "unnatural" lifestyle, very much informed the film and shaped it into something much more than what superficially only looks like a lurid kind of "Twilight" spin-off.

It's a movie about an abusive jerkwad and an airheaded woman who sees nothing wrong with said abuse, and worse, people see it as romantic. Yeah, NO.

Max not having a 3F, as compared to another skater who does, absolutely needs to be counted against him. Nobody in their right mind can say otherwise, so just stop. It's annoying.

You can repeat this as many times as you like and it will never make it true. Max DOES have a 3F, it does NOT get edge calls, it's just not in his FS at the moment. I'm sure it will come back when the various choreographic revisions are finished. And if you don't believe me, go watch his Gladiator FS again. It's the third jump pass and he does it beautifully out of basically nowhere.

Your constant vitriol against Max because he dared to beat your favourite is what's annoying.