2015 Skate Canada Mens Free Skate

[Mathman]

For me at least Patrick was certainly more than 10% better in the PCS components, but his marks did not reflect this.

He got 7% more. If Hanyu had fallen twice instead of once, Patrick would have gotten 14% more in PCSs.

I have just invented a new figure skating scoring rule! :yes:

 

[yyyskate]

:gclap: as I have said there are more opinions than just repeating over and over again some old ideas without double checking the opinions of various people. I'm not saying who has better SS. But per my opinions it is not possible for you or for me to compare skaters with vastly different layout and give out something like a set in stone from digital screen. that's funny from you and your fellows. At least I always ask people who have watched skaters live and look for fancam to get a closer valuation.

I have watched many live competitions and also watched tons of fancams and also compared skater's same performance on screen vs live impression(that I watched live). I think Patrick has better blade work mastery based on this outings. This opinion is not "repeat over and over old ideas". It is an independent opinion based on my personal experience in figure skating, I do get opinions from other people including fans and coaches, but also have my own opinion based on all the knowledge I have gathered.

 

[Meoima]

I have watched many live competitions and also watched tons of fancams and also compared skater's same performance on screen vs live impression(that I watched live). I think Patrick has better blade work mastery based on this outings. This opinion is not "repeat over and over old ideas". It is an independent opinion based on my personal experience in figure skating, I do get opinions from other people including fans and coaches, but also have my own opinion based on all the knowledge I have gathered.

Let's agree to disagree. As I have said, I don't point out who is better at SS than who, because I take words from that coach saying that only two similar programs or layouts can be compared and evaluated more fairly.

 

[yyyskate]

another thing I wanna add is that, although I didnot watch Patrick's this FS outing live, but I can imagine how majestic it would be watching it live based on my previous live competition experience and the video clips.
Doing 3 quads is a rare achievement in figure skating, but to skate like Patrick's FS here, it is also very precious, very rare!!! and awe-inspiring to watch live. Patrick is definitely one of a kind.
My recommendation is people go and watch Patrick's competition live once, before he retires, before it is too late, You WILL understand what I mean, and how precious he really is!!!!!

 

[Skater Boy]

Chan's skating is exquisite and that really came through in yesterday's FS. His skating was polished to perfection. Quality wise, it really doesn't get much better than that. That being said, I can understand why he leaves some people cold. He's a virtuoso that you observe in a detached manner.

Hanyu's FS is so technically difficult that 1) I don't know if he'll skate it clean, and 2) I don't know if he'll skate it clean and hit A+ quality because it's 2x harder to achieve that kind of finish with that kind of layout. It's like trying to finish 100m relay in the fastest time possible while having to go through an obstacle course along the way.

I think if Hanyu skates clean he will win as his technical elements are harder as is the layout in respect to back ending. I am not sure I agree though with any suggestion his program is harder; without the jumps Chan is still more difficult and intricate. Hanyu's program last nite at least lacked that spark and he really did not seem to have the energy necessary for it Performance wise chan was better. I under sand peole tend to like the more overt artistry. I also think the eye injury also makes it harder for Chan to compete that is clearly a disadvantage artistically. Still there was a virtuoso quality about Chan's Chopin Sad to say though he needs to increase the difficulty or he won't be able to compete with Hanyu. I also question last night the scores of Rippon and Nam - I think Nam should have scored enough for him to be fourth overall. He certainly is not as mature as the rest, then again he is 17 years old - he does seem behind Hanyu at this ripe age but he is still young enough to improve. tRippon is going to need that quad lutz or figure something out. the US competition is too tough for him to keep doing this. As for his hair it is his choice however whether we like it or not there are consequenes or reactions that may or may not be intended. It is sadly in part about perception; think about in the business world or law or corporate finance a guy with long hair usually is going to have be "EXTRA" good in that culture to get recognition - maybe longer hair is more accepted in some cultures/fields. Ditto for colored hair etc. I have to say Ithought Pc wise I preferred Hanyu's countrymate. but more mileage and you know the judges will love Hanyu. Interesting with Hanyu's technical difficulty in his programs the judges can now give him great marks for pcs but still give chan significant better marks and Hanyu can win still with his tes. If they both skated best I do believe chan deserves ie 10percent more but would lose probably to the tech scores of Hanyu overall. However as there are limits in the sp if there is an edge to chan we have virtually a tie overall.

 

[MIM]

Interviews after the FS: Patrick, Yuzuru

It is fabulous to hear how they approach the competition and perceive the results differently. Also, it is reassuring that they have great supporting teams in order to pursue specifically what they aim at.

I think many posters have read the below post by unico. His/her insight reflects the skaters' vision in skating and beyond, which I deeply appreciate. So, I would like to post again.

Chan was just a virtuoso today. He beat Hanyu significantly on components in the LP where Hanyu fell (and was visibly drained), but Hanyu beat Chan slightly on the components in the SP when Chan fell. I think this shows judging of falls impacting the PCS, which I hope will continue through the season.

Hanyu obviously became quite ragged and it was through sheer will that he finished the end of the program. But, this is how he pushes himself as an athlete, and this is the type of champion he is. I remember Elvis Stojko's interview with TSL and how he talked about how adding up the 4Ts and the 4Ss and the 3As increased the expenditure of energy so that "they're not even in the same frickin' planet". Hanyu could absolutely be a pristine and clean skater with gorgeous lines all the time if he only did 1 quad and 1 triple axel in the first half, or 1 quad and 2 triple axels (particularly given his general stamina issues/asthma/susceptibility to injuries) because he is a quality skater (as much as some people fervently deny it), but that's just not how he does things.

On the other hand, Chan says he's not looking to be the champion, he's searching for answers for himself, and that's different but no less valid. His motivations are his own, and if he wishes to be back in the competitive arena with 'lesser' content, it's not because he's not also a worthy champion who wishes to push his skating in other ways. Glad to have him back and give a champion's performance in front of a home crowd.

They both moved me, but in different ways. With Chan, I saw a master at his craft, it was amazement over his sheer quality, moving me intellectually and "aesthetically", if that makes sense. With Hanyu, I saw an athlete trying to push himself to his limits, never feeling content to stay in one place if he can reach farther, even if he should fail, moving me emotionally on a more human basis, even if I was aware in the difference of quality. It is kind of faint shades of Kim vs Asada circa Vancouver, haha. Anyway, I like both these programs, I like both these skaters, I enjoy Hanyu choosing a unique piece of music, and I enjoy Chan giving a masterclass on pure, powerful skating. Throw in Fernandez to give a little light-hearted charm and technical firepower, Ten when he's less injured, the amazing upstart in Uno, all the uniquely talented American and Russian men, and we have the makings for a great men's competition this season.

Lastly, from Chan's interview;

"Figure skating is not a boxing match. You are out there and skating on your own. You put out what you can best and we see how it unfolds."

 

[Li'Kitsu]

You can only compare them that way when they do the same layout. You can't compare the speed of one guy who jumps 3 quads and 2 triple axels with numerous difficult transitions to a guy who only jumps 1 quad and 1 triple axel with less difficult entries into jumps, and let's not mention the difficulty of the spins. Obviously the guy who does lesser layout has more energy to skate faster. That's it, and that's not my words. I took it from my friend's coach who was there at Skate Canada.
And he said in the SP, their speed weren't much different at all.
If anything, I hope to see Patrick skates to the same layout as Yuzuru so we can have better understanding of how fast he can be with such a demanding program.

I'm no skating coach or anything, but this is also what it looked like to me - when I saw them back in TEB 2013 already.
When I went there, I expected to see Patrick being so much better than anyone - faster, more going on in the program, bigger movements, bigger presence - because you were told again and again how you just had to appreciate him so much more when seeing him live. And while I like him as a skater, I was surprised to see the gap between him and Yuzuru was way smaller than I expected in the SP. Patrick is better in SS, but it's not the world-changing epiphany some people might want to say it is. Yuzuru was only barely slower, using rarely more crossovers than Patrick. The ice coverage was comparable too, the movements just as fluid and big... and I wouldn't say Han Yan, who was at TEB too, was that far behind the both of them either in SS/speed/ice coverage. Then there was a gap compared to the other guys, but for me, Yuzuru and Patrick were roughly in the same league in the SP. Patrick was better, but that were definitely no worlds between them.

It was a different story in the LP though. I thought it was pretty much what you explained too - Yuzuru saved some of the energy he can spend on speed/ice coverage in the SP for his difficult layout, so he was slower and didn't cover the ice as well - so the gap between the two appeared bigger. He was still easily better than anyone who isn't Patrick though, and the edges and everything were still there. That's why I thought it was such a game changer that Yuzuru has a LP as great as Seimei this season - one he really gets into and connects with, where his commitment to the music and idea can get him that extra little ounce of energy he needs to make the gap as small as it is in the SP (not to mention the fact it's simply a better programs than his last 3). He was still cautious and focused on getting his jumps to make the GPF here, but it'll be breathtaking to see once he really gets into the groove and delivers this program a 100% (and with that I don't mean the jumps, I mean the performance). That might make for a very different comparison between these two guys.

Peacefully-meant-need-to-make-that-clear-appendix: I don't mean to say Patrick isn't a great skater and a joy to watch. And I'm disagreeing with people claiming he's a 'robot' and has no artistry or audience connection just as much as I do with the ones saying he was so far ahead in SS. He's getting quite the exaggerations in both directions, IMO

Edit:
Just saw that after posting:

My recommendation is people go and watch Patrick's competition live once, before he retires, before it is too late, You WILL understand what I mean, and how precious he really is!!!!!

That's what I just said (in way too many words) I'd disagree with (not meant to say you can't have that opinion though). For me, Patrick was very good, but I didn't walk away feeling any different about him than before. If I'd have to make a definite comment about who one should have seen live from the group of skaters I saw... Pang and Tong. Even with mistakes, now that's the kind of magic and chemistry you don't see so easily through a screen

 

[tzazu]

another thing I wanna add is that, although I didnot watch Patrick's this FS outing live, but I can imagine how majestic it would be watching it live based on my previous live competition experience and the video clips.
Doing 3 quads is a rare achievement in figure skating, but to skate like Patrick's FS here, it is also very precious, very rare!!! and awe-inspiring to watch live. Patrick is definitely one of a kind.
My recommendation is people go and watch Patrick's competition live once, before he retires, before it is too late, You WILL understand what I mean, and how precious he really is!!!!!

...saw him in Nice (2012), and hope to see him again in GPF this year. I really wish he skates in Barcelona like he did yesterday, because to me it was something different, less cold that the usual him. In Nice,...left me cold

 

[yyyskate]

"it is kind of faint shades of Kim vs Asada circa Vancouver," Kinda disagree with this though, Yuna is stronger than Mao at Vancouver cycle both technically and artistically, Yuna's win over Mao is on both TES(TES BV too) and PCS. But Yuzuru is indeed stronger than Patrick technically.

 

[Terrapin]

It is fabulous to hear how they approach the competition and perceive the results differently. Also, it is reassuring that they have great supporting teams in order to pursue specifically what they aim at.

I think many posters have read the below post by unico. His/her insight reflects the skaters' vision in skating and beyond, which I deeply appreciate. So, I would like to post again.



Lastly, from Chan's interview;

Thank you for quoting unico, that's the post I was thinking about myself when reading this endless battle here about who from Chan and Hanyu is better. Chan is right when saying this is not a boxing match, because each skater is unique in their own ways and have different strengths and weaknesses. I think Hanyu and Chan are great rivals actually because they complement each other nicely. Chan is a master on skates, there's no doubt about that, but Yuzuru only works by aiming for something that is always out of his reach, because that's the way he is. Objectively, they're both in a league of their own, with Chan being ahead on the skating skills, and Hanyu on the ambitious technical side. And I agree with the marks they had yesterday, Chan deserved to win. The only thing is, for me - and this is where subjectivity plays its part, Yuzuru always moves me because of how simply human and raw he looks on the ice, while Chan leaves me the impression a beautiful statue would give me. It's beautiful and refined, but I don't feel connected to it.

 

[yyyskate]

Lucky for me, the live comp that I watched Patrick live is when he is 100% full on. I at the time was a fresh eyed figure skating spectator, no bias towards any skater at all. That is an experience I will never forget. I also watched Han live recently at SA, I think Han's SS and blade work were also not at Patrick's level yet. Patrick is indeed "second to none" in this department. Also, add the atmosphere Patrick can bring live through his sheer skating. I would not argue with many Yuzuru's fans live experience/impressions here. Just give my suggestion to watch Patrick live once before too late, As for my personal bias between Yuzuru and Patrick, I have no bias toward either of them.

 

[qwertyskates]

Jumps aside, what I like about Patrick's skating is his control, precision, edges, bladework, immense power, speed, all executed with an effortless flow, grace and beauty which I feel is attributed to his deep knee bend skating and lower centre of gravity. His movements seem etched into the ice.

I'm fascinated by the way competitions insisted on skating figures in the past, I suspect that while Yuzuru is a very good skater, Patrick will beat him in figures.

Yuzuru is fast, has great ice coverage, greater flexibility, etc., he literally takes flight on ice, which is a sight to behold as well. However, he isn't in as much control as Patrick. It could be physiology, Patrick's natural advantage of a lower centre of gravity translates into mastery of the icy surface, greater stability, which enables him to fully carve out really intricate, fast footwork which showcases his talent and skill.

Both are great skaters after their own styles, both have different strengths. However, Patrick does have an edge on the ice based on his physiology and he fully plumbs it to his advantage, and for our eyes.

 

[Ice Diva]

I think if Hanyu skates clean he will win as his technical elements are harder as is the layout in respect to back ending. I am not sure I agree though with any suggestion his program is harder; without the jumps Chan is still more difficult and intricate. Hanyu's program last nite at least lacked that spark and he really did not seem to have the energy necessary for it Performance wise chan was better. I under sand peole tend to like the more overt artistry. I also think the eye injury also makes it harder for Chan to compete that is clearly a disadvantage artistically. Still there was a virtuoso quality about Chan's Chopin Sad to say though he needs to increase the difficulty or he won't be able to compete with Hanyu. I also question last night the scores of Rippon and Nam - I think Nam should have scored enough for him to be fourth overall. He certainly is not as mature as the rest, then again he is 17 years old - he does seem behind Hanyu at this ripe age but he is still young enough to improve. tRippon is going to need that quad lutz or figure something out. the US competition is too tough for him to keep doing this. As for his hair it is his choice however whether we like it or not there are consequenes or reactions that may or may not be intended. It is sadly in part about perception; think about in the business world or law or corporate finance a guy with long hair usually is going to have be "EXTRA" good in that culture to get recognition - maybe longer hair is more accepted in some cultures/fields. Ditto for colored hair etc. I have to say Ithought Pc wise I preferred Hanyu's countrymate. but more mileage and you know the judges will love Hanyu. Interesting with Hanyu's technical difficulty in his programs the judges can now give him great marks for pcs but still give chan significant better marks and Hanyu can win still with his tes. If they both skated best I do believe chan deserves ie 10percent more but would lose probably to the tech scores of Hanyu overall. However as there are limits in the sp if there is an edge to chan we have virtually a tie overall.

Agree with your post. Chan is a virtuoso! His Chopin program's a masterpiece. His speed and skating skills astounding and because he appears to float over the ice rather like a dancer, there's the misperception that his program is easier. All that footwork, changes of direction & weight, transitions are incredibly difficult. When I watched the rest of the field they to me appeared junior-ish in comparison. While I like Hanyu, I found his program boring, sloppy, slow at times. No finesse. He's undoubtedly a gifted jumper but there isn't much else so Hanyuflation for sure in the scores. Rippon - sorry, but ugh -- awful program. Nam had much better flow and his jumps were cleaner. Sure, he's a bit slow at times but his program more complete. So it will be an interesting season.

 

[Leonardo]

…land all the planned jumps. The component scores will follow of their own accord.

Exactly.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Lucky for me, the live comp that I watched Patrick live is when he is 100% full on. I at the time was a fresh eyed figure skating spectator, no bias towards any skater at all. That is an experience I will never forget. I also watched Han live recently at SA, I think Han's SS and blade work were also not at Patrick's level yet. Patrick is indeed "second to none" in this department. Also, add the atmosphere Patrick can bring live through his sheer skating. I would not argue with many Yuzuru's fans live experience/impressions here. Just give my suggestion to watch Patrick live once before too late, As for my personal bias between Yuzuru and Patrick, I have no bias toward either of them.

Yes, well, I think I can kinda say that too about Patricks skates that I saw, with him getting all those WRs and stuff
It's your choice if you want to shrug other peoples opinions that disagree with yours off as biases, but TEB changed quite a lot of my perceptions about skaters, positively and negatively, but Patrick simply wasn't one of those cases to me. I could also ask you if you saw Patrick and Yuzuru back to back, because that's giving you a different outlook at this comparison compared to watching them at different competitions, IMO. They were both really on in the SP too, with great programs and all, so I'd think I also saw both at their very best.
I'm also not saying people should not take the opportunity to see Patrick live if they can. I think people need to take every opportunity to see skaters live in general, because it's

 

[Ophelia]

Agree with your post. Chan is a virtuoso! His Chopin program's a masterpiece. His speed and skating skills astounding and because he appears to float over the ice rather like a dancer, there's the misperception that his program is easier. All that footwork, changes of direction & weight, transitions are incredibly difficult. When I watched the rest of the field they to me appeared junior-ish in comparison. While I like Hanyu, I found his program boring, sloppy, slow at times. No finesse. He's undoubtedly a gifted jumper but there isn't much else so Hanyuflation for sure in the scores. Rippon - sorry, but ugh -- awful program. Nam had much better flow and his jumps were cleaner. Sure, he's a bit slow at times but his program more complete. So it will be an interesting season.

Side-eye.

 

[zschultz1986]

After REwatching both FS, it's pretty obvious, aside from the point disparity from the short, why Chan won the long: He was VERY clean, other than the quad turned to triple, which was still a well executed triple. Hanyu gave away too many points: the hand down on the third quad, the single toe on the 3A, and the fall on the 3Z, most obviously.

What will be interesting to see is who wins at Worlds given the following things: Chan skates two clean programs, where as Hanyu skates a clean short and has one or two errors on the long but gives a great performance. The TES disparity is such that Chan has to hope Hanyu's performance level falls to the point where Chan can make up the difference in BV with PCS. This is assuming many things, and does not take D10 or Javi into account.

Bottom Line: Worlds Final Flight is gonna be even better than last year. Chan makes the whole field better by him being in it.

 

[yyyskate]

Yes, well, I think I can kinda say that too about Patricks skates that I saw, with him getting all those WRs and stuff
It's your choice if you want to shrug other peoples opinions that disagree with yours off as biases, but TEB changed quite a lot of my perceptions about skaters, positively and negatively, but Patrick simply wasn't one of those cases to me. I could also ask you if you saw Patrick and Yuzuru back to back, because that's giving you a different outlook at this comparison compared to watching them at different competitions, IMO. They were both really on in the SP too, with great programs and all, so I'd think I also saw both at their very best.
I'm also not saying people should not take the opportunity to see Patrick live if they can. I think people need to take every opportunity to see skaters live in general, because it's

I indeed have watched Patrick and Yuzuru back to back at 2013 worlds live, Yuzuru was way worse (many people at that event communicated with me similar impression), serious stamina issue, but he was indeed injured at the time. So I would NOT take that one competition against him. I have watched Patrick live and many other high level artistic skaters such as Dai, Jeremy, Denis live. I think Patrick's skating is very special, his quality is very rare, thus the recommendation.
BTW, I would not shrug your opinion as biased. but you are indeed a Yuzuru fan, which might influence your impression. For me, like I said, between these 2. I have absolutely no bias at all.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Patrick as a statue is the perfect explanation. I can appreciate the refinement but emotionally I can only say "That's nice." It doesn't evoke anything. Yuzu is the complete opposite. His emotional commitment to his programs is unmatched. People who say these's no choreography or interpretation clearly don't "get" his Onmyoji program: watch the film, watch some kyogen, and research the Heian period, Abe no Seimei, and the art and practice of onmyodo. It's very authentic choreography, not som cheap, dumbed-down westernization so I can understand some not getting it.

 

[MIM]

I paid 100% attention on watching Murakami skating just now. I was truly sorry for missing him up until now. I owe him BIG really Big...:hslap:
I hear many posters here cry out for him... there was a reason and I should have checked on him earlier! my bad my bad,,, :hpull:

He put out such a polished performance. I could feel Frank's touch in every element and in-between. He did not look labored or forced doing 4S, 4S2T, 3A, and 3A2T. Yes, he ran out of power, but the energy seemed dispersed evenly and tranquilly. He managed to maintain the performance polished throughout. Natural, clean, soft, SUAVE... I loved to see him step up and put out beautiful performance with lots of contents at the most difficult moment at the competition. I still miss Machida, but Japan just has another brilliant skater, and their skaters are all excellent and different in their own way.

Looking at Dice grinning at the judges during the skate, I see that was Frank's input (i.e. on Gracie). It was one very trivial thing though, I would take out from this already precious program.