2015 Worlds Men Free Skate March 28

[OS]

Yes, well, I disagree with most of what you say. You make a generalized assumption that "everybody knows" federations pre-pick their National champions instead of picking the skater who skates best that night, but you set forth absolutely no evidence to support your point.

And how do you suggest I offer that unless I put them all in a room and try some CIA tactics. You see enough strategic inflation across all Nationals, patterns emerges, you make your minds up, simple as that. JSF 2013 Nationals being a prime example, nothing to do with Jason too.

You are absolutely correct: we pretty much disagree on everything For the record, my comments are specifically to do whether the #1 US men can afford to go quadless if the name of the game is to WIN. If it is not Jason, but another guy without quad even Hanyu or Patrick, I will still say EXACTLY the same thing. Put it this way, how can anyone be so arrogant enough to think quad is not important when even someone like Patrick Chan and Daisuke who both surpass Jason in all aspect of their skating repeatedly kill themselves getting these quad in order to remain competitive? And even then, often that is not enough.

As for what is art what is not, even those right at the top often disagrees so it is not a big deal. For the record, I don't consider River Dance as a great piece of art either. There's a reason why they call it Art and Entertainment. The two are separate things, but they often go together nicely.

 

[Mrs. P]

For the record, my comments are specifically to do whether the #1 US men can afford to go quadless if the name of the game is to WIN. If it is not Jason, but another guy without quad even Hanyu or Patrick, I will still say EXACTLY the same thing. Put it this way, how can anyone be so arrogant enough to think quad is not important when even someone like Patrick Chan and Daisuke who both surpass Jason in all aspect of their skating repeatedly kill themselves getting these quad in order to remain competitive? And even then, often that is not enough.

And what, Jason is sitting easy in Mounment waiting for the quad to show up one day? Come on! Again, just because he's not going out and breaking his neck (figuatively and literarly) to attempt quads doesn't mean he doesn't think it's important. I mean, what would you want him to say or do? Say he's not competitive? Politick for other U.S. skaters to go to Worlds instead?

Every skater has their strategy. Jason and his team believes his strategy is executing what he can to the highest level of execution rather than throw in high-base value elements for the sake of doing them. Sometimes that strategy works. Sometime it doesn't. But that applies to every skater in this competition, not just Jason.

Going for broke is not always the best or most desired strategy.

 

[OS]

And what, Jason is sitting easy in Mounment waiting for the quad to show up one day? Come on! Again, just because he's not going out and breaking his neck (figuatively and literarly) to attempt quads doesn't mean he doesn't think it's important. I mean, what would you want him to say or do? Say he's not competitive? Politick for other U.S. skaters to go to Worlds instead?

Every skater has their strategy. Jason and his team believes his strategy is executing what he can to the highest level of execution rather than throw in high-base value elements for the sake of doing them. Sometimes that strategy works. Sometime it doesn't. But that applies to every skater in this competition, not just Jason.

Going for broke is not always the best or most desired strategy.

Ok let me get this straight.
Although you agree Quads are important, but you disagree my opinion supporting the criticism that having no quads is wrong for the US #1 men?
I can see why we got into a muddle here.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Below is the recent interview which Li'Kitsu referring to. Yes, Yuzu definitely is well aware what's going on.

Worlds 2015 FS Press Conference - Yuzuru Hanyu
Part of interview on to the question on best advice Brian has given him so far:
"However, I’ve always thought… Ah… It’s not good, it’s too hard… (Looks to the side) When I first won the title of Japanese Champion, my performance abilities were lacking, and Daisuke Takahashi had put on a brilliant performance. I had thought that I would lose even though I had the edge going into the free skate. However, in reality, I had won, My feelings at the time were not very pleasant, and I had felt hesitant as well. Brian told me that he became the national champion at a young age as well, and that he had also thought that things were happening at too quick of a pace. He then said to me, “Everyone’s gone through this experience before, and all have gone past it like this.” That phrase had supported me at the time. There are lots of words of praise and judgement in the figure skating world, but this piece of advice is the reason why I am always able to believe in myself."

Thank you for posting it

 

[Mrs. P]

Ok let me get this straight.
Although you agree Quads are important, but you disagree my opinion supporting the criticism that having no quads is wrong for the US #1 men?
I can see why we got into a muddle here.

My original point is that USFSA wasn't looking to push Jason in the first place. Let me put it this way, if US had a bunch of skaters who were at the level of CURRENT medalists, i.e. beautifully packaged programs with CONSISTENTLY (key word here) ratified quads with +GOE, then there's no doubt Jason wouldn't even be a factor. And he wasn't in the fall of 2013, in the months leading up to qualifying for Sochi.

Jason has ended himself 2nd in 2014 and No. 1 this year because in spite of lacking the quad, he executes his elements well enough to get some GP medals. This season, he was first alternate for GPF. He had the highest scores on the GP among Team USA men.

And the obvious: He finished the highest among all the US men who were sent at Worlds.

So, I guess it comes down to this: USFSA surely would love a guy who can do two to three quads and have beautiful, well-constructed programs that earn top PCS marks. They said just as much to Kori Ade last season. But they don't have anyone in that realm. Their best is someone that doesn't have a quad, but has a lot of other qualities that can make them a strong competitor. That is where the chips lie.

I'd like to note this is an exact reversal of 2013. Max Aaron won Nationals because of his technical ability, but he continues to struggle on getting the PCS marks. He did not get that big of a boost even when he was US No. 1.

Probably the closest to USFSA's ideal was in 2014 when Jeremy hit the quad and a beautiful SP....that's why he scored 98, which was enough to hold off Jason in the FS. Jeremy looked great to be a medal contender...and then he struggled in Sochi.

Really what USFSA would want in an ideal world is someone with Jeremy's choreography, Jason's competitive ability and Max's quads. That skater has not emerged yet.

Sometimes you can't have it all.

Regardless, Jason (or any skater) shouldn't be the subject of criticism of something they can't control. Jason cannot control the progress of his own jumps or how his competitors do.

FWIW: In the Here and Now interview I referenced earlier (https://hereandnow.wbur.org/2015/03/23/us-skaters-worlds) there is mention of an $11.8 million athlete development budget which includes focus on helping the U.S. men get quads....so again USFSA is well aware of the need for a quad.

 

[Tavi...]

And how do you suggest I offer that unless I put them all in a room and try some CIA tactics. You see enough strategic inflation across all Nationals, patterns emerges, you make your minds up, simple as that. JSF 2013 Nationals being a prime example, nothing to do with Jason too.

You are absolutely correct: we pretty much disagree on everything For the record, my comments are specifically to do whether the #1 US men can afford to go quadless if the name of the game is to WIN. If it is not Jason, but another guy without quad even Hanyu or Patrick, I will still say EXACTLY the same thing. Put it this way, how can anyone be so arrogant enough to think quad is not important when even someone like Patrick Chan and Daisuke who both surpass Jason in all aspect of their skating repeatedly kill themselves getting these quad in order to remain competitive? And even then, often that is not enough.

As for what is art what is not, even those right at the top often disagrees so it is not a big deal. For the record, I don't consider River Dance as a great piece of art either. There's a reason why they call it Art and Entertainment. The two are separate things, but they often go together nicely.

I think my point with respect to your not providing any evidence is simply that you don't really know whether what you're saying is true; rather, you're just speculating. There's nothing wrong with speculating, except when you present your speculations as fact.

As to the quad: I don't think anyone denies its importance, including Jason. At TEB 2013, Jason took the bronze medal, but the point gap with Hanyu / Chan was huge. So no one-including Jason and his team-think it's okay for him to be quadless permanently. The point is, Jason, without a quad, consistently outperforms many guys with quads. And right now, the US has no other man who can do that as consistently as he does, with or without a quad. Both Josh and Adam are wonderfully talented, but in truth, neither one has a solid quad yet and neither one has recently shown that he can perform consistently well under pressure. The other thing is, Jason, for all his smiley, wide-eyed, boy next door persona, is extremely competitive and wants to win, and he knows he needs more than one quad to do it.

As to art and entertainment, I'm afraid I don't see things quite as you do. Mozart's Die Zauberflote and Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream are both highly entertaining, but they're also great works of art. Barber's Adagio for Strings is gorgeous and happens to be one of my favorite pieces of music, but it's not the only gorgeous piece of music out there. More important, whether or not Riverdance is a "great" piece of musical art-and I don't necessarily think it is-does not correlate directly with whether or not Jason is an "artist". I happen to think he is an artist. I honestly can't think of any other skater who could perform that taxing and complex choreography with such grace, purity and beauty of line and movement, and sheer joy.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Ok let me get this straight.
Although you agree Quads are important, but you disagree my opinion supporting the criticism that having no quads is wrong for the US #1 men?
I can see why we got into a muddle here.

I think a lot of us think that the best man should be US #1 regardless of quads and that clearly is Jason at this point. You sound like you are suggesting that USFSA should unjustly hold him down to politic more effectively. I think a lot of us will disagree that is a good course of action.

The best the USA has right now does not include a quad this season. Accept it and move on. It is what it is. We don't have a Ten/Hanyu/Fernandez right now. We have Jason who is holding up his end of the bargain and consistently either not sucking or doing surprisingly well. We have Max who can do the jumps, but has angered the PCS gods too much reach the holy trinity of skating's scores. We have Josh, who clearly has mental demons to match his talent and conquering them is an ongoing life long battle. Frankly I think putting too much pressure on him now is a bad idea, we need to let him learn how to slay his own demons. Jeremy is like Josh, but I fear his demons are winning - I hope Josh has better long term luck in that area. I guess we could let Jeremy keep trying his hail Mary attempts till he succeeds or kills himself, I can't see how that is a good idea. Adam, who tries a quad, but is lucky to only get 1 < rather than two, so really does not have a quad any more so than Jason, he is just more happy to ram his head against a brick wall over and over again. Nathan Chen is up and coming, but only time will tell how much Nathan is sizzle and how much he is steak - any combination of growing and injury could still take him out of the game, sadly. Ross Miner was 6th, but has not left enough of an impression on me to make a snarky generalization, so that in itself is saying something - you have to stand out, not just be good. Then we have Dornbush. He might actually be the closest we have to the holy trinity, other than the fact that it seems as soon as thing go well for him he finds a way for it to unravel. I can't decide if he has a crippling fear of failing or a crippling fear of winning. At any rate, his head does not appear to be in the game the right way to really be on top. Douglas Razzano rounds out the top ten, and if anyone thinks it is too late for Jason to be competitive, I would think you see Douglas as well past his prime.

It is not like the USA has a stable of Hanyus Tens and Fernandezs at home drowning their sorrows in whiskey.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't mean to be trivializing Brown, but his 4th place is a bit annoying to me. He did have a splendid SP and was appropriately marked but, somebody like Ge or Nguyen was more deserving of beating out a FS that had one 3A and a 3A<<. Of course, the points justify Brown being placed ahead but 4th in the World with a FS with one clean 3A is pretty unfortunate. I thought his FS was well skated but preferred the energy and excitement created in Riverdance. That walley in tano 3Z though is one of my favourite moves and better than most quads.

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't mean to be trivializing Brown, but his 4th place is a bit annoying to me. He did have a splendid SP and was appropriately marked but, somebody like Ge or Nguyen was more deserving of beating out a FS that had one 3A and a 3A<<. Of course, the points justify Brown being placed ahead but 4th in the World with a FS with one clean 3A is pretty unfortunate. I thought his FS was well skated but preferred the energy and excitement created in Riverdance. That walley in tano 3Z though is one of my favourite moves and better than most quads.

YMMV, here.

Jaosn was punished pretty heavily for his 3A<< in TES. Nam beat him by 9 points in TES. Misha was just a touch below Jason in TES. Misha hit all his 3As, but he got ! on both his 3Z and his +GOE was not has high as Jason.

If the placement was solely based on TES, then I'd say I'd agree. But it's based on both TES and PCS. And PCS criteria doesn't require a docking down because of rotation errors. it's not like the 3A<< was disruptive to the program or performance.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Jason could have had the program of the season. There's a lot of great moments in there but it needs a more consistent through line in the choreography. I hope they keep it for next season and take some suggestions. After his camel spin in the beginning it's a HUGE moment and the music continues to build, but his skating is rather casual. He needs to have WILD energy. Both footwork sequences need to be slightly modified. The first one doesn't have a good enough "memorable moment", which makes it feel too compulsory, and the second footwork sequence has wonky side kicks and dips that need to be changed, because that movement doesn't match the power of the music. Also, the little back mini-split he does into the Triple Lutz should be changed to footwork, that movement is too whimsical for this program.

 

[TMC]

Jason could have had the program of the season. There's a lot of great moments in there but it needs a more consistent through line in the choreography. I hope they keep it for next season and take some suggestions. After his camel spin in the beginning it's a HUGE moment and the music continues to build, but his skating is rather casual. He needs to have WILD energy. Both footwork sequences need to be slightly modified. The first one doesn't have a good enough "memorable moment", which makes it feel too compulsory, and the second footwork sequence has wonky side kicks and dips that need to be changed, because that movement doesn't match the power of e the music. Also, the little back mini-split he does into the Triple Lutz should be changed to footwork, that movement is too whimsical for this program.

Funny how different tastes can be - to me those kicks and dips in the choreo seq are awesome and match the music perfectly. My fave part of the program, I get chills every time.

 

[OS]

I think a lot of us think that the best man should be US #1 regardless of quads and that clearly is Jason at this point. You sound like you are suggesting that USFSA should unjustly hold him down to politic more effectively. I think a lot of us will disagree that is a good course of action.

Not at all. It is more like I don't think ANY federation should hold someone up or hold down. Just let them compete freely, and let the judges judge honestly.

If you revisit the US Nationals protocols for the past 2 years, not just this year you'd find Jason has always received some fairly generous PCS from the federation judges relative to everyone else, to separate him from the pack and secure his placement/reputation.

US Nationals 2015 SP scores
Jason 44.46
Big inflation. vs. previous US nationals inflation 41.68 vs. 4CC '15 of 39.36 (note Josh beat him in PCS here)
Worlds '15 40.14 (US #1 Bonus, but were marked practically equal to both Russia men, which imo were ridiculous but I have been saying these last 2 years all signs are pointing to ISU is looking to bring figure skating back to Europe and are looking for 2 European singles champion, now they have 2 this year.)

Adam 40.92
Not much inflation consider the quad lutz wow factor/better programs, previous US Nationals 39.25 vs skate america '13, 40.81, GPTEB '14 37.04
Worlds '15 SP PCS, 38.81 (US #2 casualty. Had he be #1, his PCS will be at least 40, consider both Russian men got 40+, )

Josh 43.43
PCS should be higher but was not, vs 4CC 39.76 (higher than Jason's 39.36)
Worlds 15' 36.40 (US #3 casualty)

Jeremy 45.40
About right, not much inflation, his previous US nationals 45.96, vs Skate America '13, 41.52, vs NHK '14 40.89

Max 39.57
Not much inflation, his previous US nationals 39.78, vs skate Canada '15 35.92, skate America '13 35.54

----------------

Now the FS PCS

Jason
'15 93.36 (TES 89.20)
'14 93.34

Adam
'15 92.14 (TES95.63)
'14 80.94

Jeremy
'15 88.06 (USFA 'please retire' notice)
'14 93.42

Josh
'15 93.12
'14 83.52

Max
'15 80.86
'14 79.98

To summarize: Max couldn't get any love (he could if he skate for Russia!). Adam got a bad deal past 2 years, I thought he should have won the US Nationals '15. Who knows how that may affect his self confidence for worlds from the former Jr. world champion, one just never know.

 

[peg]

I don't mean to be trivializing Brown, but his 4th place is a bit annoying to me. He did have a splendid SP and was appropriately marked but, somebody like Ge or Nguyen was more deserving of beating out a FS that had one 3A and a 3A<<. Of course, the points justify Brown being placed ahead but 4th in the World with a FS with one clean 3A is pretty unfortunate. I thought his FS was well skated but preferred the energy and excitement created in Riverdance. That walley in tano 3Z though is one of my favourite moves and better than most quads.

As a Nam fan I think the scoring was fair. Jason rightly lost points for his 3A<<. And while Name skated squeaky clean, he is not yet at Jason's level in many areas, including speed, spins, power on jumps, and artistry. So Nam deservedly beat Jason on TES, but lost out to him on PCS.

Perhaps when you say it's annoying that Jason came 4th without a quad, what's really bugging you is that so many guys skated poorly. There are several skaters who have a quad or quads and more power etc than Nam but didn't skate to their potential. Had they done so, Jason would not be 4th. But it is no way Jason's fault tat they failed to deliver. He's the one who did his job (Nam too) and the good placements are the result.

 

[TMC]

I did wonder how much has that to do with the fact Russia and Japan men pretty much crashed out and only got 2 spots, so did his US team mates. Can ISU afford US only getting 2 spots too? It can really limit their sponsorship deals for next year, particularly when the WC2016 is to take place in Boston. Anyway, Jason did a great job 3A<< aside, but I did wonder if he did a bad skate, how much will it really affect his score. 4 points off Hanyu, Denis's, Javier's PCS is not bad.

I'm just gonna file this in the same place where I keep "Jason went to Sochi because his mum knows Arsenio Hall"

 

[Blades of Passion]

Funny how different tastes can be - to me those kicks and dips in the choreo seq are awesome and match the music perfectly. My fave part of the program, I get chills every time.

I really don't see how.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH4EdD-G-jw&t=4m13s

The split jump, arm movements, and lunge are all great in the first part of the sequence but then at 4:21 it slows down and starts feeling quite self-aware. That side kick and then side dip are not movements that convey a feeling of grandiosity or power to me, which is what is going on this music. It's a booming medieval chorus and those movements feel more modern and jitterbuggy. Imagine if Yagudin in Gladiator or Man in the Iron Mask suddenly did something like this in one of his iconic footwork sequences. It would make no sense. I strongly believe the sequence would be more effective if he kept up the speed and used movements that have a more driving impact.

I think the movement towards the end of the sequence where he does the forward hop with windmilling arms is effective and it would be great if he did that twice in a row while really staying in character with the reckless abandon of the music. Following that up with the fan spiral being held for a longer amount of time would be great. Ideally he would only do 1 Double Axel at the end of the program instead of 2 (which is how it would be if there was a Quad attempt earlier in the program) because a fan spiral held out longer is a great movement to use at the end there when the music crests, before doing some kind of step into a double axel and then an exiting transition into the forward inside curving movement. That inside curve at the end is a lovely introspective moment in the program that becomes rushed and a bit off the music in the current layout because of throwing the second Double Axel in there.

 

[TMC]

I really don't see how.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH4EdD-G-jw&t=4m13s

The split jump, arm movements, and lunge are all great in the first part of the sequence but then at 4:21 it slows down and starts feeling quite self-aware. That side kick and then side dip are not movements that convey a feeling of grandiosity or power to me, which is what is going on this music. It's a booming medieval chorus and those movements feel more modern and jitterbuggy. Imagine if Yagudin in Gladiator or Man in the Iron Mask suddenly did something like this in one of his iconic footwork sequences. It would make no sense. I strongly believe the sequence would be more effective if he kept up the speed and used movements that have a more driving impact.

I think the movement towards the end of the sequence where he does the forward hop with windmilling arms is effective and it would be great if he did that twice in a row while really staying in character with the reckless abandon of the music. Following that up with the fan spiral being held for a longer amount of time would be great. Ideally he would only do 1 Double Axel at the end of the program instead of 2 (which is how it would be if there was a Quad attempt earlier in the program) because a fan spiral held out longer is a great movement to use at the end there when the music crests, before doing some kind of step into a double axel and then an exiting transition into the forward inside curving movement. That inside curve at the end is a lovely introspective moment in the program that becomes rushed and a bit off the music in the current layout because of throwing the second Double Axel in there.

Nah, to me those kicks and arm movements are a great interpretation of the grandiose music (and at Worlds he even hit the beat perfectly as well); they always make me think of Tristan fighting in the heat of that final battle.

The forward hop with the windmilling arms on the other hand is the only part of that sequence that I kind of detest, so two of those would be twice as bad.

De gustibus and all that jazz.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Nah, to me those kicks and arm movements are a great interpretation of the grandiose music (and at Worlds he even hit the beat perfectly as well); they always make me think of Tristan fighting in the heat of that final battle.

Why would someone do a side dance kick when they are fighting in battle?

Anyway, he is objectively moving slower and not projecting to the audience as much when doing those movements, so...

 

[StitchMonkey]

Why would someone do a side dance kick when they are fighting in battle?

Because a second opponent tried to attack you form the side and you were able to get rid of them with a kick.

 

[el henry]

I'm just gonna file this in the same place where I keep "Jason went to Sochi because his mum knows Arsenio Hall"

:thumbsup:

ETA: I also agree with pretty much everything StitchMonkey said in the analysis of US Men. *Who else* should the USFA "hold up"? The skater who comes through in the clutch is Jason Brown. He is not hiding a quad behind his back going nyah nyah nyah you can't see it -- he doesn't have one yet. And the other guys don't either ... not consistently. (love the comment about Adam banging his head against the wall with the quad lutz). The US champion is the best of the pack and did about as well as he possibly could at Worlds. That is all you can ask.

 

[karne]

I'm just gonna file this in the same place where I keep "Jason went to Sochi because his mum knows Arsenio Hall"

Also in the same folder: THE JASON STUFFIE KONSPIRACY

And the other guys don't either ... not consistently. (love the comment about Adam banging his head against the wall with the quad lutz).

*unhappy sigh*

Max does. And he's the only one of the top US guys putting it in combination, too. That 4S-3T at Nationals...ah, a thing of true beauty.

The USFSA seems to be going in the opposite direction to everyone else. To them, if you don't meet a snob-nosed definition of artistry, you'll be punished, and hard.