2015 Worlds Men Free Skate March 28

[Mrs. P]

whole post

Reducing Jason's programs to some sort of technically easy program that is earning pcs cause he performs his heart is really inaccurate. Despite the lack of a quad, T&I FS has a lot of transitions and choreography packed into it. its backloaded with a 3-1l-3s combo in the last minute In the program.

I was responding to your assertion that Jason is being pushed beyond logic to be national champ or US No. 1. My point is that had Josh not made those silly errors, he would have won, not Jason. He got the highest PCS in the FS not Jason. and for good reason, Josh has always been a step ahead technically then Jason, all the way back when they were juvenile skaters. Jason's relative consistency is what kept him in the game all these years.

If you want to take Jason's 4th place at Worlds as some sort of political play and nitpick at at what you see are his shortcomings then that that's your prerogative. And yes he could have been in 8th too, but that's competition. That's how it worked out that day. Jason's PCS or USA No. 1 status did not cause his competitors to have bad skates. Personally I'd rather those skaters not skate badly.

Finally lets be clear that I'm not disagreeing that Jason needs a quad to be a medal contender, but I think he's done a pretty good job making the most of his skills at this point in his career.

 

[OS]

Reducing Jason's programs to some sort of technically easy program that is earning pcs cause he performs his heart is really inaccurate. Despite the lack of a quad, T&I FS has a lot of transitions and choreography packed into it. its backloaded with a 3-1l-3s combo in the last minute In the program.

You are joking right. When have I ever done that? To anyone?

 

[Mrs. P]

You are joking right. When have I ever done that? To anyone?

Speaking in generalities. The takeaway I'm getting from his critics is that he's getting high PCS cause he's usa no. 1 and that he is a nice performer but that's it.

I'm saying The construction of thr programs certainly contribute to his high scores. That's a strategy they chose to employ. Not any quadless program would get those scores...heck, not any quad program would get those scores either.

Also more to your specific point...T&I is nothing like Chaplin. It's not a happy program. Yet people in the audience was drawn to it.

 

[OS]

Speaking in generalities. The takeaway I'm getting from his critics is that he's getting high PCS cause he's usa no. 1 and that he is a nice performer but that's it. The construction of thr programs certainly contribute to it

Also more to your earlier point...T&I is nothing like Chaplin. It's not a happy program. Yet people in the audience was drawn to it.

You missed my point. I meant the type of program Jason would thrive in is something like Alena Lenova's SP, where the emotions and subjects are clear and obvious, he just need to deliver. Give him something more abstract and complicated that requires a sense of self reflection and searching, he is less successful.

The ONLY time T&I program worked for me this year was at WC, it finally gelled, as a result I gave him great compliments based on gut reaction. Though I still don't think it is artistically successful but it did improve as a more watchable routine.

 

[Mrs. P]

You missed my point. I meant the type of program Jason would thrive in is something like Alena Lenova's SP, where the emotions and subjects are clear and obvious, he just need to deliver. Give him something more abstract and complicated that requires a sense of self reflection and searching, he is less successful.

The ONLY time T&I program worked for me this year was at WC, it finally gelled, as a result I gave him great compliments based on gut reaction, not calculated

That's the point! Rohene picked T&I for Jason cause it was out of the box for him. It was supposed to be a challenge and not gel right away.

So good job Rohene.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Actually... a few of us were just as tough on Hanyu, even as big massive fans. Remember these epic exchanges?

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...-Nationals-Men&p=692911&viewfull=1#post692911

I remember it and I remember that it made me run away from GS for a while. That's not the end of it either - outside of GS, I also remember seeing people posting pictures of how they were ripping pics of Yuzuru apart, or some shots from competitions when there were people, whole blogs, that wouldn't clap for Yuzuru no matter what, not when he was introduced, not when he skated, never. I don't get the image some people have that Yuzuru would just get everything thrown at him and was the darling and lucky fellow to Chans evil stepmother. It doesn't matter in the end though. I just don't think that's a comparison and argument that makes sense under any possible perspective, and I'll rather stick to that than go through the negative things I remember regarding Hanyus treatment.

 

[OS]

That's the point! Rohene picked T&I for Jason cause it was out of the box for him. It was supposed to be a challenge and not gel right away.

So good job Rohene.

It was a good attempt but still I don't think it is artistically successful.

It is Tristian and isolde... where is the romanticism, poetic qualities, rapture, love, loss, tragedy?

I think what makes this program works so well at WC was the sense of danger, doom and a big risk/adventure on the line to claim. To watch Jason clearly fought for it, own it, it has a grandness to the performance helped by the music, one he totally delivered. I felt his movements were more thoughtfully executed, committed (sharper, polished less rushed) than before. The music was cleverly chosen and it is good to see him venture out trying new things, but this program in 2 years will have the maturity and soul it need.

 

[OS]

I remember it and I remember that it made me run away from GS for a while. That's not the end of it either - outside of GS, I also remember seeing people posting pictures of how they were ripping pics of Yuzuru apart, or some shots from competitions when there were people, whole blogs, that wouldn't clap for Yuzuru no matter what, not when he was introduced, not when he skated, never. I don't get the image some people have that Yuzuru would just get everything thrown at him and was the darling and lucky fellow to Chans evil stepmother. It doesn't matter in the end though. I just don't think that's a comparison and argument that makes sense under any possible perspective, and I'll rather stick to that than go through the negative things I remember regarding Hanyus treatment.

That is why fair judging is so important, and why anonymous judging is so bad. Skaters are not responsible for the marks, the judge is, but without the judges having a face, skaters get all the blame. I am not aware of the hate Yuzuru got, am really surprised, thought he is everyone's darling.

I don't understand what you mean by Chans evil stepmother? Who is Chans evil step mother??

 

[dorispulaski]

Jason is already very good at introspective pieces. Jason's Flows Like Water was introspective and earned a standing ovation at Junior Worlds, which was not in the US. . Where T&I stretched him was into Big Time Tragick Drama, drinking poison to audible gurgles, while dressed in a silly outfit. Now that he hadn't done before.

 

[Meoima]

That is why fair judging is so important, and why anonymous judging is so bad. Skaters are not responsible for the marks, the judge is, but without the judges having a face, skaters get all the blame. I am not aware of the hate Yuzuru got, am really surprised, thought he is everyone's darling.

I assure you, Hanyu has most hatters from his own country for some...eh reason. when he lost gold at Shanghai, a former skater wrote a rather critical article on Yahoo Jp about him, saying he neglected training (which is not true as he has been injured constantly) thus he didn't get the result bla bla bla. And there were over 2.000 comments for that article in just a day, I don't know how many comments it has reached at this moment. But of course, the hate he receives is no where near the level of the love people give him.

 

[Hanmgse]

I assure you, Hanyu has most hatters from his own country. when he lost gold at Shanghai, a former skater wrote a rather critical article on Yahoo Jp about him, saying he neglected training (which is not true as he has been injured constantly) thus he didn't get the result bla bla bla. And there was two thousand comments for that article in just a day, I don't know how many comments it has reached at this moment.

But almost all the comments were very harsh towards the article not Yuzuru

 

[Li'Kitsu]

That is why fair judging is so important, and why anonymous judging is so bad. Skaters are not responsible for the marks, the judge is, but without the judges having a face, skaters get all the blame. I am not aware of the hate Yuzuru got, am really surprised, thought he is everyone's darling.

I don't understand what you mean by Chans evil stepmother? Who is Chans evil step mother??

It was a comparison, nothing more. Hanyu = the darling everyone likes, Chan = evil stepmother everybody hates. Fairytale like. Maybe I should have called Hanyu the SnowWhite/Princess of Figure Skating and that would have been more obvious.

 

[OS]

It was a comparison, nothing more. Hanyu = the darling everyone likes, Chan = evil stepmother everybody hates. Fairytale like. Maybe I should have called Hanyu the SnowWhite/Princess of Figure Skating and that would have been more obvious.

Why are they both female, this is confusing. Poor Chan, he need a new cuddly mascot.

 

[Mrs. P]

For the record, I like Chan and Hanyu.

Chan in his time off has become more personable (or he's able to bring that out more). I'm looking forward to his return to competition -- I really warmed up to him during his Olympic year. That SP was amazing.

I've always like Hanyu, and really appreciated him more when I saw him live in Skate America in 2012. There's something raw about him I appreciate. I'm glad he's improving artistically, but I hope he keeps some of that passion and raw energy that makes him stand out.

People are sure vicious. I mean there's trash talking in other sports, but it never seems as personal as it does in figure skating circles.

 

[Interspectator]

If you are at the top, you get people who don't agree with you being there. It's part of the package unfortunately.
Yuzu gets very little actual hate in proportion to the love he gets from public. He's a very well liked skater at home and in China too.
There was a bit of a transitioning period between Daisuke and Yuzu when Yuzu had just begun to surpass him in scores that made some fans act out. I dare say, when Yuzu is surpassed by a new rising star, it will happen all over again. -It means he makes spectators feel something. -As did Daisuke. -As does Jason. At least it is not a neutral response.

and criticism is not always hate. There is a difference.

 

[Mrs. P]

If you are at the top, you get people who don't agree with you being there. It's part of the package unfortunately.
Yuzu gets very little actual hate in proportion to the love he gets from public. He's a very well liked skater at home and in China too.
There was a bit of a transitioning period between Daisuke and Yuzu when Yuzu had just begun to surpass him in scores that made some fans act out. I dare say, when Yuzu is surpassed by a new rising star, it will happen all over again. -It means he makes spectators feel something. -As did Daisuke. -As does Jason. At least it is not a neutral response.

and criticism is not always hate. There is a difference.

:agree:

Yep, I was thinking this. If you're aren't good, then people wouldn't even bother talking about you, either with praise or criticism. I think for me personally, I tend to be drawn to the Cinderella's and mid-majors of most sports, so it's bit jarring when my favorite skaters/teams get thrust into this sort of association. It's like Gonzaga University (private school in Spokane, Wash.) in the NCAA tournament (U.S. college basketball) -- they had such a meortic rise in 1999, making it to the elite 8 but haven't returned there for many years and even getting eliminated as early as the second round. I have to admit I been critical of these guys cause I feel like they underperform relative their status in the NCAA. They did make it to the elite 8 this year -- so good for them!

So through that lens I could see why Jason gets the criticism he gets (i.e. Jason is like the Gonzaga of skating) -- he seems a bit out of place among the contenders because of his technical status. But he's arguably the Wichta State of skating -- a team that is also a mid-major and several limitations but manages to sneak by competition by having a strong overall game. Hanyu and Chan are like the University of Kentucky --- they have really strong fanbases but also strong critics/haters. But like UK, they are at the top of their game and you really can't fuss at them for that. Javi is like the University of Louisville -- a physically strong team.

Thanks for humoring my other sports love.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

and criticism is not always hate. There is a difference.

True, but if people spend their time ripping pictures of someone apart and parading that around the internet it's definitely not valid criticism. The article Meoima mentioned isn't either. Again, I don't see any advantage to playing 'which skater is getting the most hate?', I just wanted to point out that, yes, Hanyu had to deal with this kind of stuff too.
And I can't find the interview again, but I think I read something recently when Hanyu was asked about the best advice Orser gave him - and he said it was back after nats 2013. It sounded to me as if he wasn't sure if he should have won that, but moreso as if he didn't even want that win back then. Sounds to me as if Hanyu was very aware of what was going on and didn't have an easy time dealing with it (specially if that is what he thinks back to now, even if he has the olympic experience under his belt and it's over 2 years ago).

 

[Meoima]

True, but if people spend their time ripping pictures of someone apart and parading that around the internet it's definitely not valid criticism. The article Meoima mentioned isn't either. Again, I don't see any advantage to playing 'which skater is getting the most hate?', I just wanted to point out that, yes, Hanyu had to deal with this kind of stuff too.
And I can't find the interview again, but I think I read something recently when Hanyu was asked about the best advice Orser gave him - and he said it was back after nats 2013. It sounded to me as if he wasn't sure if he should have won that, but moreso as if he didn't even want that win back then. Sounds to me as if Hanyu was very aware of what was going on and didn't have an easy time dealing with it (specially if that is what he thinks back to now, even if he has the olympic experience under his belt and it's over 2 years ago).

Agree, the point is Yuzuru has had to go through a lot of hate from inside Japan is true. He receives much much more love than hate, of course, and he doesn't have social network account so it doesn't matter at times. But on Twitter and some blog, yahoo article, some antis are still calling him by very terrible words and use many vicious comments towards him, even tell him to go die. Even here I remember some thread about him has been closed thanks to the amount of hatred from some people.
Just saying Yuzuru is not naive to believe he is loved by everyone.

 

[Tavi...]

re: Mrs.P our resident Jason Brown expert
Thank you for the informative post on why the ranking ends the way they are, however, I tends to look at protocols with a pinch of salt simply because although they explained what and why the things are the way they are, they rarely tells the full story.

I think we have all watched enough competitions to know PCS can be a little fiddly especially at National Championships. The results at nationals tends to indicate more about federation interests than what really went down on the day. It is more likely the federation already have a rough idea of who to back rather than reflect how the skaters actually have skated, to have the right ducks in a row.

Being picked as a power federation's #1 do come with its unofficial perks if the scoring ever tight. Being #3 in your power federation do makes you a spare especially in the volatility of the PCS department. If you are a #3 for example, it is very likely if you ever get dangerously beating some other power federation's #1, you are the first casualty to go and wouldn't get the PCS you deserve, OR you will see your PCS slump more than it should when you don't deliver. If you are a #1 who did deliver, the bump in PCS is likely to much higher than if you are your country's #2 or #3 subject to skating order. When you are your power federation #1, you also have the perk/reputation to a nice PCS cushion to save you from a complete disaster (judge's reactions are always delayed from one event to the next), and boost you even more IF you DO deliver if they haven't filled their quotas. Jason, Josh, Adam's are good example of this volatility thanks to the federation power, rankings and message they want to send across. It can be seen in the PCS at this event.



I am addressing specifically the point on whether the quad-less criticisms are valid ONLY. Not anything else beyond that.

If the federation's agenda is to securing 3 spots (go conservative), then Jason is the right guy. If their agenda is to have a chance to podium (go brave and bold), Jason's potential is limited unless you are counting on everybody REALLY to crash and burn like Kovtun did. From the land of brave and bold in a sport that celebrate faster, higher, stronger, I was simply expecting a different candidate and a different approach, even though the end result do justified their decision.

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Oh and I disagree Jason is the best artist. He is one of the great showman today for sure, but artistry is an organic process, until he matures and have developed the sort of preference on what type of skater he want to become, the sort of skating style, music, program, signature element/quality that makes a Jason Brown program, he is not quite there yet. He is young and have plenty of time to develop, but today, he is just a quality performer with great skating skills. I'd describe him as the male equivalent to Alena Leonva. Give him a Chaplin program, he will make you laugh and cry and keep you entertained many many times. Give him a Jeremy Abbott Barber program, then your mind may wonders off doing something else. Never say never though, I am always open to changes and new improvements.

Yes, well, I disagree with most of what you say. You make a generalized assumption that "everybody knows" federations pre-pick their National champions instead of picking the skater who skates best that night, but you set forth absolutely no evidence to support your point.

You make a generalized assumption that "a power federation's #1" gets a PCS bump not granted to the federation's #2 or #3, again without setting forth any evidence to support such a claim. In fact, all top 5 finishers at Worlds are their federations #1. Are you saying that Nam, Hanyu, D10, and Javi also got PCS bumps for being their country's #1-or just Jason?

You think the USFS should have backed someone other than Jason because his potential to podium is limited, "even though the end results justified their position." I'm curious to know who you think the USFS "should" have backed. Josh, who won silver at 4CCs but was 11th at NHK? Adam, who was 10th at Skate Canada and 4CCs this year, 8th at 4CCs last year, 5th at TEB this year and 13th at his last Worlds in 2012? Or maybe Jeremy, who as 2014 US champion was 5th at Worlds, NHK, and Skate America and 12th at the Olympics, and 8th at Worlds in 2012? Someone else?

As to whether or not Jason is an artist or "just" a showman, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I don't share yours. Your reasoning seems to be not that he has tried to perform and failed miserably at showing what you consider mature, organic artistry, but that you think your mind would wander if you saw him perform Jeremy's Barber program. I will simply say that much as I appreciate Jeremy's skating, what we consider "artistry" should not be limited to Jeremy's style of performing or expressing music. You may prefer it, and that's fine, but I do not - and I say that as someone who spent many years performing and developing her own artistry.

 

[alia jackson]

Below is the recent interview which Li'Kitsu referring to. Yes, Yuzu definitely is well aware what's going on.

Worlds 2015 FS Press Conference - Yuzuru Hanyu
Part of interview on to the question on best advice Brian has given him so far:
"However, I’ve always thought… Ah… It’s not good, it’s too hard… (Looks to the side) When I first won the title of Japanese Champion, my performance abilities were lacking, and Daisuke Takahashi had put on a brilliant performance. I had thought that I would lose even though I had the edge going into the free skate. However, in reality, I had won, My feelings at the time were not very pleasant, and I had felt hesitant as well. Brian told me that he became the national champion at a young age as well, and that he had also thought that things were happening at too quick of a pace. He then said to me, “Everyone’s gone through this experience before, and all have gone past it like this.” That phrase had supported me at the time. There are lots of words of praise and judgement in the figure skating world, but this piece of advice is the reason why I am always able to believe in myself."