2015 Worlds Short Dance March 25 | Page 64 | Golden Skate

2015 Worlds Short Dance March 25

bixby

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Likening C/B to Duhamel/Radford is the funniest/meanest thing I've read today.

That would be the biggest joke of the day! Just watch Meagan's arms when she skate, there's no gracefulness to it. Compare her to Madison, it's really night and day.

THAT'S PATHETIC AND FLAT OUT RIDICULOUS!!!
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
I can see how the TC can potentially change a “call” in the Review if he/she disagrees with both the TS & ATS, especially in pairs and dance where often one of the specialists watches the man, the other watches the woman, which is where it is probably most common.

Exactly. :) There can be different scenarios which this could happen, the way I see it.

Example: TS makes the call and the AST agree. The TC does not, so he suggest a different call. The TS or AST will agree with him, because:

a) He/She really didn't notice that at first view and is genuinly convinced that the TC is right.
b) He/She might be not too willing to argue, or fight on it.
C) He/She is in somekind of prior agreement with the TC

The last one, C, could happen also between TS and AST of course.

Anyway, this is kind of fascinating for me. There is a course here in April, to become a regional judge, and I have sent a request form. :hopelessness::biggrin:
 

beabstress

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Does P/C have a shot at gold?

Yes, I believe so. THEY have to believe so. They have to get the levels, and the teams above them have to be a bit off their game. I think the more likely scenario is that all four teams at the top will score extremely close to each other in the FD, with P/C winning the FD itself--but being too far back from the SD to claim gold. Rather like the situation at last year's Worlds.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
I was just reading Alla Shekhovtseva's comments about the Worlds and unlike her she was openly lobbying P/C for the Gold. Gushing all over, stating that nobody can touch them currently. Something feels "fishy".

She always had only compliments about them. She was gushing over them in an interview about Russian teams two months ago. She loves their FD, like many.

By the way, what did she said about the Russians?
 
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FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
It's really funny how some people think C/B danced to quick steps. The hate for C/B really clouded people's vision. Even if C/B invented Paso themselves, it wouldn't be paso because C/B danced to it.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
From rules: In Partial Step Sequence, if partners do no remain in contact at all times, even during changes of Hold and allowed stops, the Level shall be reduced by one Level (per element). This provision does not apply to loss of contact due to a Fall.

Maia and Alex lost hand contact in the middle of Partial Step Sequence - it is not very visible from camera - they had terribly bad angle camera today. In this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7vixbumu-M - it is on 2:49.


Good catch sisinka. Thank you for explaining it. I'm so not a techie so it's nice when those who are explain the technical aspects.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I've got to hand it to Diva Chock, she knows how to sell the heck out of her programs. And she is so sexy in this routine. Sure her edges aren't the best, but everything else has improved a lot and her presentation is probably better than anyone in the field.

I think the French are better skaters and the Canadians better technicians, sure, but they don't sell their goods quite like Diva Chock :love:. I actually won't be that upset if C/B win.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
From a dance perspective, C/B's Paso is all the way Paso _ from expression to movements. I do realize that from Ice-dance perspective, what's Paso is somewhat like W/P or the Shibs' but C/B's Paso is very much a Paso dance. The presentation and the feel was very Spanish and the look is very Paso. If you have questions, watch some real Paso dances _ here's one https://youtu.be/np90PSzIrY4 . Here's another Paso dance from one of the World's best dance teams (was ranked # 1 for years).

You beat me to it. I'm terrible with remembering names of ballroom dances but C/B is definitely dancing an acceptable variation on the PD. I tend to think of it as "Soft" Paso, but feel free to call it what you like. What you can't call it is "not a paso." It is.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
Here's what Najarro, who choreographed C&B's Paso, has to say about it, and about Ilinykh & Zhiganshin's and Hurtado & Diaz's Paso Dobles, which he also choreographed.

Antonio Najarro: „I treat skaters like real dancers” | Inside Skating
http://www.insideskating.net/2015/03/23/interviews/antonio-najarro-i-treat-skaters-like-real-dancers


He would be shocked at those who think he doesn't know what a Paso should look like.

You know, there's a reason you are one of my favorite contributors.

I think some people think watching Dancing with the Stars makes them a dance expert.
 

LisaM

Medalist
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Personally I don't care how good you can sell a program if I don't like your technique (or if it's just plain bad in general), so that's why I'm very much not into C/B, or C/L. I'm not saying they have bad technique per se but to me there is something subjectively off about it which I can't point out. But I mean, if they win, it's not the end of the world, like some people seem to think :biggrin:
I'm hoping for a solid FD for Ruslena finally, and I'll be happy then.
 

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
I know I compared D/R and C/B but it had nothing to do with them as skaters but rather to do with the ability to maximize the C.O.P. and the fact that some people liked them and some people didn't. I hope that's not mean or pathetic. It's my opinion. I do think Chock is more graceful than Duhamel, for what it's worth.

Reading what people said about the Paso is interesting. I guess we all have our ideas on how something should look or feel but the reality can be quite different. I believe what I said was I prefer the Shibs performance of their paso. I hardly think of myself as an expert on dance. I watch, I like or don't like or am ambivalent.

Really interesting clarification on the actual rules and what happened with the Shibs and some of the other teams. I bow to the superior knowledge displayed.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
I like them as people too, obviously. But I'm curious at why you think they can bounce back with their FD, which people note is the weaker of the two segments this season. What I gathered from your point above is that they've worked really hard to improve it....but I don't necessarily see how that might equal a comeback.

Optimism I guess. But I'm glad they're being scored better in general.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Optimism I guess. But I'm glad they're being scored better in general.

Well, I guess I'm pleasantly surprised at your optimism. I have to admit that it's hard to keep the optimism when they experience setbacks.

But I took a closer look at the numbers and the Shibs' picture is not as dire as one would think.

Here are their TES numbers in the SD (usual caveat that it's not perfect comparison given rules and the such, but you will get the idea).

2011: 36.14 (4th)
2012: 29.44 (7th)
2013: 34.14 (8th)
2014: 32.00 (6th)
2015: 35.26 (6th)

Had it not been for that pesky stumble/break and hold, their TES would have been 36.26, which would have been the highest TES for them since their 2011 breakout worlds SD. This is encouraging.


Here is their PCS breakdown in the SD:
2011: 30.74
2012: 32.91
2013: 32.00
2014: 31.55
2015: 34.06

And here is where they compare to others in PCS.

Gabriella/Guillaume - +2.66 (36.66, highest)
Kaitlyn/Andrew +1.92
Madison/Evan - +1.98
Anna/Luca - +1.3
Elena/Ruslan - +0.45
Maia/Alex -(34.06)
Piper/Paul-- -2.08
Madison/Zach - -2.84
Alexandra/Mitch - -3.15

Compare this to last year:
Elena/Nikita +4.9 (36.45, highest)
Nathalie/Fabian - +4.8
Anna/Luca - +4.38
Kaitlyn/Andrew - +4.15
Madison/Evan - + 1.37
Maia/Alex (31.55)
Penny/Nick --0.83
Victoria/Ruslan -- -1.71
Piper/Paul --1.84
Gabriella/Gullaume - -4.22 (15th in SD)


Other than Madison/Evan and Gabriella/Gullaume, who had huge jumps in their PCS in one year, Maia and Alex is actually closing the gap in PCS on some of the top skaters while distancing themselves from the bottom half of the top 10.

So....slow and steady gains. Not sexy, but worth noting.
 
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Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
I don't know what people are talking about C&B SD, Paso not Paso. Of course it is a Paso. As Najarro mentioned The music has parts of the rhythm of Paso Doble.
That's what the SD is. It has a pattern with Paso this year, but it's not like the whole dance is a Paso. Nobody is dancing a Paso from start to finish. Hell, next season the SD (Ravensburger waltz) the music is waltz "plus a partial step sequence of one full circuit of the ice in hold of either a foxtrot, march or polka."

Good luck with that. :rolleye:
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I'm baffled at the rankings....

Didn't C&B make a mistake in the SD in the GPF? So this is the first time C&B competed against W&P with a clean SD, and the judges went with C&B - I can accept that. Igor's programs are boring but he sure knows rack up points. According to the BBC Euro guys, their transitions were wide and intricate. Their near 2 point lead is OK. Maybe W&P will catch up in the FD, who knows. At this rate, I hope W&P won't be multiple silver medalists just as they were 4th at Worlds multiple times. I hope W&P aren't cursed or something.
 

sabinfire

Doing the needful
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
I'm baffled at the rankings....

Didn't C&B make a mistake in the SD in the GPF? So this is the first time C&B competed against W&P with a clean SD, and the judges went with C&B - I can accept that.

Hmm, 4CC Short Dance results?

1. Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES USA 70.38
2. Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI USA 69.65
3. Kaitlyn WEAVER / Andrew POJE CAN 68.31
 

NoNameFace

GS given name - Beatrice
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
I’m finally back and can give some thoughts about SD...Big sorry for the lenght of my post (you don't have to read it, I just have to release all these thoughts made...)

A general thought after watching last 2 groups is that many couples were very nervous and hence lost levels and point in TES segment. The other thing is that judging there ruined for me completely whole competition – some great dances were highly underscored (especially in PCS – Shibutanis as example), some OTOH were majorly overscored (Anna and Luca and no offence but Madison and Evan also, but below I’ll write more why I think so). I’m seriously considered watching ice dancing in future at all – especially major competition where politicking is still the main judge in charge and draw has so strong influence for standings as appears. This is my favorite segment and I’m really losing it while watching how originality and personality are unappreciated values while being boring/flat/unoriginal or having bad tech basis (visible even for someone who know heck about the ice dance technique details) is marked highly…It’s just wrong.

To the merit – Madison and Evan on lead. Even without looking at protocols I knew they nailed all 4 levels there. Yes, of course it should be appreciated, but overall performance was very cautious, very “flat” and slow, especially during paso doble patterns (or maybe I’m the only one who think that) hence I cannot understand these high PCS score for performance and interpretation/timing. Another thing is that their SD overall is kind of boring, neutral ones in the field – another medicore one for me, nothing special and today they did not prove me wrong about it unfortunately. Especially her attitude about it strikes me wrong every time I watch them – she makes a burlesque diva/cabaret sassy dancer/musical actress to every music in every dance she does. And ending this part I wholly agree with these of you about Madison tech basis (edges, ice coverage etc.) – and it’s ridiculous that they get SS higher than Shibutanis or Elena and Ruslan…Being in lead – considering all level 4s – is justified I think but NO BY SUCH MARGIN AND NOT WITH 74+ MARK (***** please…). After this I went to watch Tessa and Scott’s SD at Sochi Olympics (individual competition) where they scored little above 76 points – I know we shouldn’t do such comparisons (different events/different patterns/judges etc.), but I cannot help myself but notice such travesty making now (giving them such PCS especially looking at other duos with way better dances).

Next point is underscoring/overscoring trend – I feel sorry especially for Maia and Alex, they should be third after SD, I have no doubts. They have one of the best paso dobles from all competitors (along with Elena/Ruslan and Sara/Adria – another harmed duo and if Russians would go later than 4th they would crack 70 for sure) – these 3 I mentioned have the best concept, best “flare” and Spanish vibe about them for me. I know it’s also about execution, tech side etc., but I adore these 3 pasos and Maia and Alex really stepped up this season. There is no doubt that they have better SS than Madison and Evan, better choreo, better costumes, better attitude and more few things better than them. I’m kinda struck and confused how it works more and more. And I’m losing an interest/excitement about ice dance more and more because of such things.

Anna and Luca are on the opposite side that Shibutanis – MASSIVE overscore it screams (and I’m not the only who think that way it appears…). I’m really curious how judges’ minds operates to give them higher SS mark than Shibutanis. This paso is wrong in so many things – old-fashioned choreo which showcases all their flaws (Anna’s posture for example), weird music, “heavy” costuming…And 72+ as a result, I’m just done. And if as a final result (if Shibutanis/ Frenchies/Russiand and Kaitlyn and Andrew will deliver their best in FD) they will still be on podium with this medicore, unmatched Danse Macabre (which screams Tessa and Scott from music to costumes) I will officially lost my mind.

Few words for Kaitlyn/Andrew and Gabriella/Guillaume – for Canadians nerves got them somehow (that 1st paso pattern killed them) and the whole performance was stiffy and not so brave as earlier this season, but considering American’s 74+ score they should be closer I think (they have still better SD overall so PCS should be higher more than breadcrumbs than Madison/Evan). French duo failed on levels and that’s the case of their positions – if they hit at least one paso pattern they would be 2nd and have best position to grab the gold (considering their draw for FD). But we have what we have and we have to live with it (but I’m still disagreeing).

Few words for FD – considering draw and trends appeared in SD judging I feel (unfortunately, because I’m a huge fan) that Canadians are ruled out of gold now UNLESS Madison and Evan make major mistake/lost more levels than usual (considering almost tied PCS for both teams, but there’s also 4CC story from this year…). Best chance to challenge Americans for this gold have Frenchies (best PCS gives hope for this and an obvious fact - for me at least - that they have the best FD this season overall). Shibutanis not skating in the last group makes them ruled out from medal race for good I think UNLESS major apocalypse will happen in the last group AND they will get their levels on place. Italians and Russians are wild cards for me before FD a little – for Elena and Ruslan it all depends on execution now because the dance is a snoozefest in my opinion (unfortunately) and how others will do so nothing to lose, something to gain I think; for Anna and Luca – with French duo on the roll, such a small margin between them and comparing these 2 FDs there’s no chance for Italians to medal I think UNLESS Frenchies/Americans/Canadians will have a tech disaster AND Italians will get their levels on place.
 

Astrid56

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Here's what Najarro, who choreographed C&B's Paso, has to say about it, and about Ilinykh & Zhiganshin's and Hurtado & Diaz's Paso Dobles, which he also choreographed.

Antonio Najarro: „I treat skaters like real dancers” | Inside Skating
http://www.insideskating.net/2015/03/23/interviews/antonio-najarro-i-treat-skaters-like-real-dancers

He would be shocked at those who think he doesn't know what a Paso should look like.

Thank you for the info. I commented on C/B's Paso because it seems many don't think it is not a PD. I'm not very informed of Ice-dancing's protocols/techniques but I know dance very well having the training as well as the education (degree). When I watch ice-dancing I watch it from a dance's perspective. Both Chock and Bates are good dancers/performers and their FD show these talents so well ....
 

dcnative

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 20, 2011
I have a strong and totally wrong resentment of C/L because of Saitama. Pechalat & Bourzat... :cry:

I do as well, for the same reason; however, that is not clouding me when I say that this performance should NOT be higher than the French this year!! She was practically stabbing the ice with her foot, and her posture was terrible; their edges were NOT better than the P/C. Terrible judging.
 
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