2015 Worlds Short Dance March 25

[Ryan O]

That may be the best performance G/P may be able to give of that PD. So good for them. She really has improved exponentially over the last two years.

True. There was a big difference in Piper & Paul's experience when they started skating together 4 years ago. Piper has worked hard to catch up.

I know some people don't like G&P's SD costumes, and I agree the cape can be a bit distracting. But it's the last time we will have to see it.

Paul & Islam skated a good SD as well, and I was surprised at how high their SD mark was. That's the highest they've gotten before, I think. They finished closer to G&P than they had at other points during the season.

I was a bit surprised to see The Shibutanis finish 4 points ahead of G&P and about 5 or 6 points ahead of P&I, because I'm not sure if The Shibs are that much stronger than the Canadian teams anymore.

Anyway, they are all close in the overall standings so the point is that the Canadian dance teams are still closing in on The Shibs.

 

[sisinka]

If you watch top dancer’s Not Touching Step Sequences:

…Chock & Bates got Level 4 – I can see that probably there was some edge in every turn except Madison’s last Opening Mohawk…it is surprise for me that all light edges were counted by panel and thanks to it this execution of step sequence (with all cross-overs to gain some speed) should be a role model for all dancers - also for Tessa & Scott who were also not getting Level 4 everytime…

…Papadakis & Cizeron got Level 3 – you can notice that this couple is spreading ice from blades a lot in moments – this is a sign of not well done edge…in last turn of One Foot Section Guillaume spread ice so much that even more kind panel shouldn’t count this last turn…Guillaume’s last Double Twizzle was done through heel of blade – with scratching – it shouldn’t be counted as well…overall this steps were not performed in best way…

…Ilinykh & Zhiganshin got Level 3…why not Level 4…probably because very strict panel noticed that Ruslan went through the heel of blade in one turn during One Foot Section and didn’t count this turn…but wait…this should be kind Technical panel counting all light edges of C&B…probably not too kind to everybody. All edges were there, maybe one or two lighter, but done …

...Weaver & Poje – Level 4…better edges than Chock & Bates…but in the middle of the steps Kaitlyn executed Rocker through the heel of blade (the same thing Ruslan did, if this caused dropped Level for I&Z, this Kaitlyn’s not clean execution should drop Level for Canadians as well)…Andrew jumped in opening turn – Counter during change of edge, this shouldn’t be counted for sure…overall Kaitlyn executed better change of edges than Andrew who was much more fighting for clean turns today…not Level 4 for sure…

GOE for Not Touching Step Sequence:
P&C: +2.36 points
C&B and W&P and C&L and S&S: +2.20 points
I&Z: +1.89 points

Looking at Handbook for judges – GOE should reflect edges, sureness, flow, speed, partner balance, clean turns, spacing…

I can understand that judges tend to give the highest GOE in steps to couple with highest Skating Skills, unfortunately this mark doesn’t always reflect reality this season.

The couple with best Skating Skills and best Step Sequences are I&Z and W&P this season. BUT P&C have the highest Skating Skills 8.96 points and the highest GOE for Step Sequence +2.36 points – althought the French couple has moments when they are slightly better then Shibs and C&B as to edge work, but they also have moments when they can compete with Testa & Csolley in better edge work, it is definitely too soon to give such Skating Skills and GOE for Steps to a couple who can’t control their blades all the times.

 

[sisinka]

Twizzles and GOE:
W&P and C&L and I&Z and G&P and Testa&Csolley and S&B: GOE +1.20 points
C&B and P&C and S&S and M&K: GOE +1.11 points

…Gabriella didn’t catch her free leg during first half rotation in First Set of Twizzles, so leg position shouldn’t be counted…Level should go down…why Technical panel gave Level 4?
…Gabriella was fighting to keep balance in First Set – why GOE +1.11 points?
…Madison lost balance in First Set, she was slowly loosing balance in Third Set…both Evan & Madison made their Twizzles look like the most careful element in the program…why GOE +1.11 points?
…Lena & Ruslan – great like usual, but not perfect – little out of synchro at the end of first Set…
…Kaitlyn & Andrew didn’t hold fixed leg position for full 4 rotations (because they took almost a half rotation to get leg into enough high position), so this feature should be counted for Level 3 only…in Second Set Andrew executed opening rotation in deeper knee of standing leg, then for next 3 rotations he was in less deeper knee – in Twizzles you can’t have knee action (if you are not using knee action for the whole Set as one of Features, but then both partners must do the same)…why did they get Level 4?..and why GOE +1.20 points for Andrew’s knee action?...
…Anna & Luca – nice, but not the best…
…Piper & Paul – very good…
…Testa & Csolley - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yRSCmugGLBc#t=49 …how can such execution of Twizzle get such high GOE I didn’t catch…
…Maia & Alex – probably the best Twizzles today, very good traveling during all three Sets…

…I definitelly admire Shibs and I&Z for having Twizzles where fear, struggle and big carefulness never play the major part in execution like I see in case of C&B, W&P, C&L, P&C and many others…

 

[sisinka]

All Paso Doble steps Timing (Doris mentioned disharmony in keeping the rhythm of P&C):

P&C:
…Gabriella had timing issue in second Pattern Key Point 1 – she was a little bit late in last step (Technical panel counted this like well executed)
…French couple had timing issues in BOTH Key Point 3 (Technical panel didn’t count only second Key Point 3…
...besides Key Points the couple was out of rhythm for most of time…yes, after Nikita not being at World and European Championships, Gabriella and Guillaume looks to be another dancers with BIG rhythm issues…
…Component for Interpretation / Timing for 9.25 points looks to be very ironical then…

I&Z:
…Ruslan correct…
…Lena had timing issue in second Pattern in Key Point 1…she was also a little bit late in last step in first Pattern in Key Point 1 (Technical panel counted this like well executed like in Gabriella’s case) …
…Component Interpretation / Timing 8.61 points…

W&P:
…Kaitlyn was also a little bit late in last step in both Key Points 1, Andrew was a little bit late in second Key Point 1 (second Key Point 1 for Kaitlyn and the same steps like Key Point 2 for Andrew was counted)…
… Interpretation / Timing 9.04 points…

S&S:
…in first Key Point 1 Alex was a little bit late in last step, Maia was very late in last step (Technical panel took it, but it shouldn’t be counted giving “T“ - Timing issue), in second Key Point 1 and 2 last step was a little bit late (it was accepted like in case of Gabriella, Lena and Kaitlyn)…
…during first Paso Doble steps before Key Point 1 the couple was out of the rhythm…
…with Gabriella & Guillaume having the biggest rhythm issue, Maia & Alex would get the second place for not keeping rhythm precisely…

C&L:
…timing was good with small exception – in Key Point 1 after slide steps they go into next step a little bit early…
…Interpretation / Timing 9.04 points…

C&B:
…they keep the rhythm, but I don’t understand why they start second Key Point 1 about one beat sooner then major accent in music starts, it looks strange…
…Interpretation / Timing 9.11 points…

G&P:
…Paul was a little bit late in last step of Key Point 1, Piper was visibly late in the same step in both Key Points 1 (they got all Key Points counted, but at least Piper’s part should get “T“ call)…

Why is couple with biggest rhythm issues P&C getting the highest Timing score?

 

[sisinka]

My view of Presentation:

Chock & Bates:
…clean and nice, but I didn’t change my mind – Madison is flirting in Cabaret/Chicago style and Evan tries to have command and attack, but in my opinion he is not very successfull in it…their Paso Doble part looks more like walking in a garden when weather is sunny than like hot/passionate/commanding/sharp dance…

Weaver & Poje:
…besides C&B, Kaitlyn & Andrew are another couple whose typical style is far from Spanish dance style, but in comparison with American rivals, they could interpret this dance very well…
…little distraction – they both started to give their heads forward – it kills elegant posture and specially man loosing commanding look thanks to it…
…overall I like this dance a lot…
…I didn’t find any reason why they were held down in Components…

Cappellini & Lanotte:
…this was not Spanish dance…I hope to see better SD and better Anna’s upper body posture next season…

Papadakis & Cizeron:
…nice, I like Gabriella’s dance, but Guillaume’s smoothness which looks lovely in FD is not allowing to create perfect look here, he misses command and sharpness…but I prefer this dance to C&B…
…from time to time the couple didn’t look sure on skates…

Ilinykh & Zhiganshin:
…visible problems in second Key Point 1 from Ruslan, but he was able to handle it…little bit out of synchro in last part of the Step Sequence…
…if you compare this dance with European SD, maybe it was better there, I am not sure…but if you compare it with the rest of top couple, they have the second best presentation in SD in my opinion…
…greatly executed Paso Doble part as to command and sharpness (it is very noticeable in comparison with many couples who skate Paso Doble steps in a placid mood)…

Shibutani & Shibutani:
…best execution of their SD this season…
…this time Maia was more visible than Alex for me…they started in a very sharp and dramatic style, unfortunately in the beginning of Paso Doble steps they started to be placid and went into “walking in the garden during sunny day“ mood, but the finish of the dance was sharp and dynamic again…
…overall I liked it, I would also give higher Component score to them instead of C&B…

As to other couples…
…nice program from Hubbell & Donohue, they also improved in speed, their Step Sequence was lovely and one of the best in SD…
…putting aside technique, Hurtado & Diaz had the best presentation from all couples, it was perfect and it didn’t miss anything in presentation…BIG question to judges as to Component score…this program deserved from 9.50 – 10.00 in Choreography, Performance and Interpretation…
…Monko & Khaliavin changed Twizzles and it immediately started to be their strong element, which was surprising for me…their program was like one big passionate and dynamic attack, they skated with fire…but they still need to improve body posture…

 

[LisaM]

Very interesting to read, thank you for your input, sisinka! What would your placements or scores be based on this information?

 

[dorispulaski]

Why is couple with biggest rhythm issues P&C getting the highest Timing score?

Yes, that is what I would like to know. Furthermore, like chronic underrotaters in singles, this is a problem P&C have always had. Clearly, the judges wanted this team to place well and did everything possible to make that happen, probaly based on their love of P&C's FD. Consequently, they ignored the timing issues.

 

[sisinka]

Very interesting to read, thank you for your input, sisinka! What would your placements or scores be based on this information?

Thank you.

I would be more strict as to timing issues, I think that it should be essential for ice dancers to feel the rhythm correctly. If not once again it will lead to a situation when today’s top single skaters will have better connection with rhythm than top ice dancers - this look like a nightmare a little bit.

So I would put all Levels down for Timing issues. Also Level down for P&C in Twizzles. I am not sure how to judge W&P, how to decide second Set of Twizzles by Andrew.

Definitely I would give better GOE in Twizzles to S&S, I&Z and M&K, definitely lower GOE in Twizzles to P&C and W&P.

I would give higher GOE in Step Sequence to I&Z, a little bit more to W&P, lower GOE to P&C, C&B, C&L.

How it would change Total Element Score and result of couples, I have no idea.

As to Component Score I would give the highest Choreography, Performance, Interpretation to Hurtado & Diaz, than I&Z (but choreo on the same level like H&D), then W&P, S&S (this time above P&C), P&C, M&K, Hubbell&Donohue etc.

Skating Skills and Transitions: 1. I&Z, 2. W&P…M&K have great technique, Hubbell & Donohue are very good, then Shibs with C&B, then P&C, S&B are good, then C&L…

 

[sisinka]

Yes, that is what I would like to know. Furthermore, like chronic underrotaters in singles, this is a problem P&C have always had. Clearly, the judges wanted this team to place well and did everything possible to make that happen, probaly based on their love of P&C's FD. Consequently, they ignored the timing issues.

Maybe new judging system forced judges to concentrate on clean execution of the element and they don’t have time to watch legs, arms, upper body AND notice whether the couple keeps the rhythm or not. Maybe they don’t want to notice.

Another thing is that Technical panel should control Timing in Key Points…and it is not happening always, especially rhythm issues in case of Piper & Paul surprised me a lot because I remember them like the couple who always got high Levels in Paso Doble for whole season – I was curious, so I went to watch their Grand Prix performances…and I saw that they were out of the rhythm in Key Points also there, especially in Key Point 1 always…but they got counted all Key Points 1 and almost all Key points at every competition. Does it mean that Technical panel doesn’t recognize rhythm issue or what?

As to P&C but it is also touching some other dancers…I have an opinion that some judges still live in old judging system, where dancers rarely fall and had rarely bad executed programs. Judges knew who they will be giving high marks already before the competition started (based on the name of the couple, past results etc.), then the dancers executed clean skated, they really got high marks and won medals. Nothing too difficult to understand. That was the reason why so many very good dancers with great programs had to stay in queque finishing on low placements for longer time until judges get used to them and started to give better marks.

New judging system allows to jump up faster in result, but thanks to new rules programs are in mode that even the dancers with perfect edges and presentation can make mistakes and fall more than twice during an Olympic cycle (like Virtue & Moir for example), what to speak about dancers who were not that great. New system increased the number of mistakes in dancer’s programs, so we start to get to a similar path like single skaters have – you landed quad – you are at 4th place, you landed double instead of quad – you are at 16th place etc. The problem is that ice dance judges simply refuse to put some dance couple lower than for example 5th place just because they made mulptiple mistakes in program.

 

[elif]

Another thing is that Technical panel should control Timing in Key Points…and it is not happening always, especially rhythm issues in case of Piper & Paul surprised me a lot because I remember them like the couple who always got high Levels in Paso Doble for whole season – I was curious, so I went to watch their Grand Prix performances…and I saw that they were out of the rhythm in Key Points also there, especially in Key Point 1 always…but they got counted all Key Points 1 and almost all Key points at every competition. Does it mean that Technical panel doesn’t recognize rhythm issue or what?

They were judged by Canadian Technical Specialist almost every competition this year, that might be why they got levels they don't deserve. :disapp:

 

[uhh]

I thought that P/C actually used to be held down a bit—there was some internal French politics with Didier, wasn't there? So their rise and improvement is significant but not as meteoric as it seems.

In addition, they were much more inconsistent. There were skates like CoR (I think?) where it was filled with visible errors, and other skates like Euros where they just weren't sharp enough on edges through their turns or holding positions on their lifts to get level 3s & 4s. They've tidied that up quite a bit (and what hasn't been tidied up now gets mostly overlooked as a bonus of being no.1 in France & judges pets )

 

[Alba]

In addition, they were much more inconsistent. There were skates like CoR (I think?) where it was filled with visible errors, and other skates like Euros where they just weren't sharp enough on edges through their turns or holding positions on their lifts to get level 3s & 4s. They've tidied that up quite a bit (and what hasn't been tidied up now gets mostly overlooked as a bonus of being no.1 in France & judges pets )

That was TEB. Not their best performance there.

 

[uhh]

That was TEB. Not their best performance there.

No, definitely Rostelecom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OThP_a5j8g0. Rewatching their skates last year to find those performances, they were much sloppier but I found them so much more interesting.

 

[Alba]

No, definitely Rostelecom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OThP_a5j8g0. Rewatching their skates last year to find those performances, they were much sloppier but I found them so much more interesting.

Ah sorry. :thumbsup: I thought you were speaking about this season.

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes so did I.