2016 Cup of China Mens FS

[eta]

Did you complain about 2014 Worlds when Hanyu's PCS was huge in the SP with a UR fall on his quad (http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/wc2014_Men_SP_Scores.pdf -- 9.5's in PE and lots of 9.5's in IN), allowing him to ultimately edge out Machida for his first (and thus far, only) World title? :sarcasm:

If this performance with TWO falls with one being UR can get 9.25 in PE and 9.5 in IN, and this performance with one fall with UR plus time violation plus a << invalid element can get 9.5 in PE and 9.5 in IN, then Hanyu's scores are actually not high enough, relative speaking.

Ah, and I picked those two because I feel sorry for Dai and D10.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

In fact, Patrick has less transitions than Yuzuru
http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/143787559605/full-translation-of-the-whole-analysis-of-top-men

I question if this analysis is 100% accurate.

For example, it says Chan doesn't have a loop in his footwork -- when it has 2 of them. See 2:46 and 2:50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Hc7GL1X7I#t2m45s

That alone is a misrepresentation because looking at the table at first glance, it makes it look like Patrick is devoid of a particular turn, while Hanyu does the complete set.

Makes you wonder what else the analyst has left out. :sarcasm:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If this performance with TWO falls with one being UR can get 9.25 in PE and 9.5 in IN, and this performance with one fall with UR plus time violation plus a << invalid element can get 9.5 in PE and 9.5 in IN, then Hanyu's scores are actually not high enough, relative speaking.

Ah, and I picked those two because I feel sorry for Dai and D10.

LOL, TWO falls including a UR versus 5 falls?!

My point is overscoring is wrong everywhere. Of course, the conversation is, when Patrick does it it's egregious - but when others like Hanyu get scored like that, their default isn't pointing out the scoring error for Hanyu but rather getting defensive by saying "But Patrick had this happen...".

 

[eta]

LOL, TWO falls including a UR versus 5 falls?!

My point is overscoring is wrong everywhere. Of course, the conversation is, when Patrick does it it's egregious - but when others like Hanyu get scored like that, their default isn't pointing out the scoring error for Hanyu but rather getting defensive by saying "But Patrick had this happen...".

Oh no you misunderstood, I'm comparing this to the 2014 WC, in which Hanyu had ONE fall during SP.
The point was you picked out Hanyu's WC performance, and I, in response, picked out two of Chan's WC performance.


And for the bolded part: Exactly what I intended, as YOU were the one who started to bash Hanyu by picking out his post-accident performance.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Oh no you misunderstood, I'm comparing this to the 2014 WC, in which Hanyu had ONE fall during SP.
The point was you picked out Hanyu's WC performance, and I, in response, picked out two of Chan's WC performance.


And for the bolded part: Exactly what I intended, as YOU were the one who started to bash Hanyu by picking out his post-accident performance.

Uh, you are comparing a freeskate - with more than 2x the number of jumping passes - to a short program. And the latter example only had 1 judge as an outlier giving 9.5 to Chan, whereas Hanyu got several 9.5's for IN.

Also, the 2014 CoC while it was a post-accident performance goes down as one of the worst examples of judging ever. People think it's unsympathetic to criticize the PCS that was given to Hanyu seeing as how he had an accident prior - but I'm not criticizing him, I'm criticizing the judges. People will try to trivialize it as "Oh, well, it wasn't a World Championship." or "Plus, he didn't end up winning the event at least." or "Even with less PCS the standings would have been the same." But it's not the result or the event that matters - it's that 5 falls got 84 PCS (the highest PCS in the FS), including 9's.

 

[eta]

Uh, you are comparing a freeskate - with more than 2x the number of jumping passes - to a short program. And the latter example only had 1 judge as an outlier giving 9.5 to Chan, whereas Hanyu got several 9.5's for IN.

Judges know that and take it into consideration.


And sure Hanyu had three 9.5 and Chan one, but he did have six 9.25 and ended up with 9.21. And Dai only got 8.82

 

[eta]

Uh, you are comparing a freeskate - with more than 2x the number of jumping passes - to a short program. And the latter example only had 1 judge as an outlier giving 9.5 to Chan, whereas Hanyu got several 9.5's for IN.

Also, the 2014 CoC while it was a post-accident performance goes down as one of the worst examples of judging ever. People think it's unsympathetic to criticize the PCS that was given to Hanyu seeing as how he had an accident prior - but I'm not criticizing him, I'm criticizing the judges. People will try to trivialize it as "Oh, well, it wasn't a World Championship." or "Plus, he didn't end up winning the event at least." or "Even with less PCS the standings would have been the same." But it's not the result or the event that matters - it's that 5 falls got 84 PCS (the highest PCS in the FS), including 9's.

I'm sure some people who are robbed of medals would disagree.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Judges know that and take it into consideration.


And sure Hanyu had three 9.5 and Chan one, but he did have six 9.25 and ended up with 9.21. And Dai only got 8.82

Dai was lowballed on PCS in the FS, but I personally didn't think his interpretation in that particular FS was outstanding in between the elements (especially in jump set ups).

And yes, judges know that and take it into consideration. So 2 falls (one UR) in a FS with 8 jumping passes versus 1 UR fall get 9's in IN. I'm saying neither is right, but you seem to think Hanyu's is? Not to mention it wasn't just the falls, both 2013 Worlds Chan and 2014 Worlds Hanyu had sloppy, cautious freeskates with tight jumps and you could tell it was a struggle for both. Machida and Ten, however, were confident and almost effortless in their delivery (even with Ten's costly doubles, and Machida's loop error) and both deserved wins.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I'm sure some people who are robbed of medals would disagree.

Like Machida's gold at 2014 Worlds? Or does it not count as robbery if it's someone other than Chan benefitting from it? :sarcasm:

 

[eta]

Dai was lowballed on PCS in the FS, but I personally didn't think his interpretation in that particular FS was outstanding in between the elements (especially in jump set ups).

And yes, judges know that and take it into consideration. So 2 falls (one UR) in a FS with 8 jumping passes versus 1 UR fall get 9's in IN. I'm saying neither is right, but you seem to think Hanyu's is? Not to mention it wasn't just the falls, both 2013 Worlds Chan and 2014 Worlds Hanyu had sloppy, cautious freeskates with tight jumps and you could tell it was a struggle for both. Machida and Ten, however, were confident and almost effortless in their delivery (even with Ten's costly doubles, and Machida's loop error) and both deserved wins.

No I did not say it's right. I am, however, especially biased towards Hanyu's R&J2 program because I have an insane amount of love for that costume so I always refrain from commenting on that particular scoring controversy.

 

[eta]

Like Machida's gold at 2014 Worlds? Or does it not count as robbery if it's someone other than Chan benefitting from it? :sarcasm:

Sure, if he thinks he deserves it. What makes you think I'm picking on Chan? I'm simply responding to your posts when you brought up Hanyu first. In this CoC 2016 thread.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Okay. How about this flawed Hanyu performance getting up to 9.25 in IN (and 8.50 in PE) from the judges? 5 falls = 9.25 interpretation, eh... http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2014/gpchn2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf Did you complain about the silver medal that performance got him? Did you complain about 2014 Worlds when Hanyu's PCS was huge in the SP with a UR fall on his quad (http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/wc2014_Men_SP_Scores.pdf -- 9.5's in PE and lots of 9.5's in IN), allowing him to ultimately edge out Machida for his first (and thus far, only) World title? :sarcasm:

For you, "pretty low GOE" means "not mostly +2's and +3s". Hanyu got mostly +2's for his 4S and his 3A, and four +2/+3 for his series. His flip should have been a bit higher, but not mostly +2's/+3s. I gave legit reasons why he possibly wasn't awarded mostly +3s on those jumping passes - and please feel free to dismiss them, while you yourself have yet to provide reason as to why he does deserve straight 3's or close to it on those particular jumps - other than, he is simply Yuzuru Hanyu (which, of course, contradicts the argument you make against Chan regarding reputation scoring).

Also, transitions aren't just number of - it's also quality of said transitions, and arrangement within a program. It's not a tally sheet.

So your only argument against Patrick being overscored here is bringing up 2 of Yuzurus skates? Amazing
For the 2014 worlds SP - that's actually an example of a fall not affecting the rest of the program. Patrick did have examples like this too (like in his FS here at CoC), and programs that completely got away from him because of the mistakes (like the SP here). But even if you want to argue that the PCS were too high, I can go with that, but the overall SP score was right, because he also got an undeserved UR call on his quad. Of course, you ignore that. And regarding to what you said later - yes, Yuzu was cautious in the LP, but so was Machida. And of course you seem to forget that Yuzu had the higher BV - he won because of his higher BV, not like Patrick here because of higher GOE and PCS, while having a lower BV.
The CoC LP was very overscored, but I really hate having it brought up in any discussion like this, because he (and Han) had a horrible accident before that. If I ever understood why the judges would not really be able to score people fairly, but very sympathetically, then it was here. Heck, they just had to witness these 2 crashing live, including Han passing out, Yuzu bleeding... the only thing is that neither should have been allowed to skate at all. That's what should have happened. But if the only real instance you can bring up to justify Patricks marks is that... well, yeah.

And I told you already, I don't want to repeat everything that was written in the SC threads here. The reasoning as to why Yuzuru's GOE should have been higher are there. And all your arguments like 'low landing'... we just had a discussion regarding Evgenias jumps were you just flat out said 'the judges don't use these GOE reduction guidelines anyway'. And yet here that's supposed to be a valid reasoning for Yuzu getting lower GOE? Double standard.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hanyu had 5 points higher BV than Machida, but he wasn't able to capitalize on that given his jumping passes were shaky. Amazing BV with okay GOE is on par with great BV with good GOE. BV doesn't win events unless it's executed - otherwise let's just crown Nathan and Boyang right now.

And speaking of GOE,Machida was lowballed on GOE (particularly on his second quad, and 0's on his lutz and ChSp1). He also deserved higher PCS But you didn't hear the same outcry because it was Hanyu who beat him. Here, when Chan has a come from behind win over Jin (who had a UR 4T, and not the best quality elements, mind you - as evidenced by the GOE analysis).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Here's my reference point - if the best programs ever in the sport deserve high 9's/10 for Interpretation (things such as Weir's Swan and Otonal, Savoie's Adagio and Mission, Lambiel's Dralion and Poeta spring to mind) then yes Patrick Chan deserves to be in the 6's in comparison for his SP effort here. That is a fair margin and a NECESSARY margin to reflect the huge differences in quality between these programs/performances. If there is no real assessment of the programs and not enough of a scoring difference between them for these qualities, then the necessary musicality/creativity/emotion of programs falls by the wayside. That is exactly what we have seen happen to the sport.

None of those programs have lyrics in them. And some of your primary arguments against Chan's interpretation was he failed to match lyrics in the music (to your liking, at that).

Not to mention, you could look at any program from Javier's Elvis to Hanyu's Prince and find sections where they lack musical nuances. Even in the benchmark programs you mentioned there are sections where those skaters break interpretation to focus on elements and the like. Using terms like "expressionless" is pretty ridiculous, as even the top skaters have moments in their program where they are focusing and have aloof expressions.

It is besides the point though. You simply don't like Chan, so any attempt at interpretation he makes will simply not be to your liking. I would love to see you critically dissect a performance of your favourite skater (Jason Brown or Sandy Linz or whoever, lol).

 

[Biellmann]

Why wasting time with haters? Next :confused2:

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Hanyu had 5 points higher BV than Machida, but he wasn't able to capitalize on that given his jumping passes were shaky. Amazing BV with okay GOE is on par with great BV with good GOE. BV doesn't win events unless it's executed - otherwise let's just crown Nathan and Boyang right now.

And I never said BV was the only factor. But when you have a close call, especially when neither program was completely cleanly executed, I have an easier time accepting the person with the higher executed difficulty - the BV - as the winner. Given how it's at least a little more objective than the GOE and PCS, it's a pretty normal reaction I'd say.

And what BS, Yuzu didn't capitalize on his higher BV? Of course he did, like, that's what made him win?

...But you didn't hear the same outcry because it was Hanyu who beat him.

You know what, I even agree a bit on this with you. Would the exact same situation happen - winning because of overscoring - to Patrick and Yuzu, or say, Javi, Patricks would lead to the biggest outcry. But you never wonder why? Just because people have decided they don't like him? Or people don't like his face? Or we're all horribly anti-Canada? Or he just doesn't have a Pooh? That's all nonsense. I can give you a reason why - because the other guys might also be overscored, they might also be held up some times, but in the vast majority, they deserve their titles and medals. Patrick has simply by far and away the biggest number of questionable wins and medals, and when it's such a repeating thing, of course more people get annoyed.

And ehm...

And speaking of GOE,Machida was lowballed on GOE... Jin (not the best quality elements, mind you - as evidenced by the GOE analysis).

You gotta make up your mind, because in a.) questioning the GOE and then in b.) using them as factual proof as to how the jump quality was doesn't work. You basically contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

 

[Blades of Passion]

None of those programs have lyrics in them.

You have to interpret the music you've chosen; everything is based around how successful you are at doing it or not. Chan's program could have no lyrics, that's his choice (and no I did not only criticize his interpretation of the lyrics, but there goes your selective reading again). His programs in the past did not have lyrics and those were also heavily criticized for the performance/choreography/interpretation, so stop it with your usual straw-man arguments.

You simply don't like Chan, so any attempt at interpretation he makes will simply not be to your liking.

You really don't get it. The metric of liking someone or not is determined upon the quality of their presentation and artistry (filtered through personal taste). If Chan was more creative and into his performances over the years, ala Daisuke Takahashi, then he would have a bigger fanbase. That's really all there is to it. He hasn't been that artistically successful, yet at the same time receives sky-high scores for these components no matter what, hence the giant backlash against his skating and/or his scores.

And I've already talked about how I like Chan's LP a ton this season, perhaps you've missed that. I also love his 2010 Worlds SP performance and 2009 Four Continents LP. When he does something that I find to be artistically excellent, I give credit where it is due. Although it's still possible even in these instances that he might be objectively overscored on certain components; another issue that you can't seem to separate from "you're just a hater".

 

[Blades of Passion]

He was somewhat checked out, and emotionally disconnected. It was a let-down performance. Yes, he got 1.01 less in PCS than his solid performance, which seems fair to me.

Ah, but this is the whole problem. 1 point less in total PCS means almost nothing. 1 point amounts to only a small difference in the quality of a single jump element (+1 GOE vs +2 GOE). When a small difference in quality of a single technical element is equally as important as the ENTIRE artistic worth of a program, then we have a big problem with the sport. This has been killing figure skating for years now. The artistry, "the magic", is not being properly rewarded and indeed skaters are not even trying as much to create it anymore, instead focusing on a more robotic kind of approach.

When a skater bombs a performance, there needs to be a big difference in the PCS. Like, at least a 5 point drop from their normal in the SP, and a 10 point drop in the LP. If these assessments are not made accurately, then artistry won't mean anything. Not even bombing a performance, but just giving an "okay" performance or having an "okay" program should still be a significant deduction. "Okay" is not enough. Amazing, extremely special, exhilarating should mean high 9's/10 for a component. Doing anything less should mean a continuously bigger drop.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

And I never said BV was the only factor. But when you have a close call, especially when neither program was completely cleanly executed, I have an easier time accepting the person with the higher executed difficulty - the BV - as the winner. Given how it's at least a little more objective than the GOE and PCS, it's a pretty normal reaction I'd say.
You gotta make up your mind, because in a.) questioning the GOE and then in b.) using them as factual proof as to how the jump quality was doesn't work. You basically contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

Ah, okay. So then this was justified, since Chan had higher Base Value than Ten? http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_Men_FS_Scores.pdf Chan had overall 3.21 higher BV than Ten at 2013 Worlds... Hanyu had 4.06 higher BV than Machida at 2014 Worlds (both segments considered). That's less than a point differential. Using your base value 'logic' it's acceptable for Hanyu to eke out a win due to higher BV, but not for Chan to win with higher base value. :sarcasm:

You can have your own criteria, but know that the base value that you keep touting as justification for skaters winning now is the reason that Chan was dominant for almost a quadrennial and people still hated that he won with errors (mind you, his competitors made errors too but the haters ignore minutia like that, lol). Coincidentally, when it benefits skaters other than Chan, people like you are completely fine with it and when it benefits Chan you'll throw a stink. Had it been Hanyu in the place of Chan, I highly doubt you would have been as condemnatory of the final standings. Maybe you're just sour that Chan beat Hanyu at Skate Canada (and you certainly didn't protest as much there about the score Hanyu got in his SP, correct me if I'm wrong), and just want to see Chan lose just to feel better about it.

Same with BoP - he just wants to see Chan lose because he thinks he's ruined figure skating or whatever and were it someone like Jason Brown beating Nam Nguyen at Skate America 2014 (then the, oh he won because he's a "superior skater" conveniently argument holds, funny enough). But feel free to keep at it - Chan will just keep racking up the wins while you all will be racking up mounting frustration and pettiness.

You gotta make up your mind, because in a.) questioning the GOE and then in b.) using them as factual proof as to how the jump quality was doesn't work. You basically contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

Huh? I'm saying Machida was lowballed on GOE, and that Jin's GOE was suitable for the quality of his jumps. But, by all means, keep trying. You gotta make up your mind - condemning a cleaner skater losing to a superior skater, and absolving the judges of a cleaner skater losing to a superior skater who you like. You (and a couple other) aren't mad at Jin missing out on the GPF, so much as Chan getting the win and preventing him from making the GPF. Even before this competition people were joking that Chan should let Jin win so he can make the final. I don't see anyone scrutinizing Voronov's scores at Skate America to track down the 0.2 points that kept Jin out of the GPF and write a diatribe about that. :sarcasm:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You have to interpret the music you've chosen; everything is based around how successful you are at doing it or not. Chan's program could have no lyrics, that's his choice (and no I did not only criticize his interpretation of the lyrics, but there goes your selective reading again). His programs in the past did not have lyrics and those were also heavily criticized for the performance/choreography/interpretation, so stop it with your usual straw-man arguments.


You really don't get it. The metric of liking someone or not is determined upon the quality of their presentation and artistry (filtered through personal taste). If Chan was more creative and into his performances over the years, ala Daisuke Takahashi, then he would have a bigger fanbase. That's really all there is to it. He hasn't been that artistically successful, yet at the same time receives sky-high scores for these components no matter what, hence the giant backlash against his skating and/or his scores.

And you're selectively editing - I said *some* of your primary arguments were pointing out lyrics he didn't interpret.

Whether he's artistically overscored is your opinion. I think in many cases Dai is overrated in certain programs as well (see: Moonlight Sonata), but putatively you put him on an artistic pedestal.