2017 Jr Worlds Short Dance

[Chemistry66]

Carrying this into Ice Dance after doing it for Men and Pairs!

For fun, here's how multiple spots for 2018 Junior Worlds would shape up based on the SP standings:

(Reminder to anyone reading this: This is NOT the final spots. Just based on SP. In case anyone thinks this is actually serious)

Qualification rules in this post here if you need a refresher

3 spots

Russia (1 + 3 = 4)
USA (2 + 6 = 8)

2 spots

Canada (5 + 12 = 17)
France (8 + 9 = 17)
Czech Republic (10, only team) - up from 1 team

Not feeling like we're going to see much shifting around in terms of who gets how many spots after the FD happens.
Things to consider for the FS:

 

[daphenaxa]

Sad for my queen Angélique.
My favorites were Loboda/Drozd and Shpilevaya/Smirnov. Amazing skates. I have to say Skoptcova, i am not so sure why 3rd.

 

[bramweld]

No offence to their fans but why are Alla and Pavel in the lead? They seem sort of rough and sloppy. Is it all about the speed and ice coverage now?

 

[larat]

Loboda's beginning of the program was so bad, tasteless. I would have deducted points for it.

 

[bramweld]

Loboda's beginning of the program was so bad, tasteless. I would have deducted points for it.

You can chalk that up to the costume, the top isn't the most flattering. Didn't mind the beginning so much, it's just the sloppiness between them really, I find most distracting..

 

[larat]

I meant how she tries to be sexy but it looks vulgar

 

[Barb]

No offence to their fans but why are Alla and Pavel in the lead? They seem sort of rough and sloppy. Is it all about the speed and ice coverage now?

Now!!??? Are you kidding me? . When people try justify high scores all they know to say is ¨they are fast!!!¨

Loboda's beginning of the program was so bad, tasteless. I would have deducted points for it.

What do you mean? the sec 15? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiHgfzBwIAw&t=199s

 

[Baron Vladimir]

No offence to their fans but why are Alla and Pavel in the lead? They seem sort of rough and sloppy. Is it all about the speed and ice coverage now?

Actually yes, that is one of the biggest goal skaters need to achieve to get high marks in program components. Goals are:
1) skating (fast) into the full ice/space structure (PCS marks reflecting that are SkatingSkills, TRansitions, COmposition of the program, execution)
2) skating to the music structure (PCS marks reflecting that are INterpretation of the music, COmposition, also timing/rhythm/dancing holds/dancing Transitions)
3) skating for the audience/public (PCS marks reflecting that are PErformance, INterpretation)
Both L/D and P/P were the best of the night regarding those goals...

 

[larat]

Second 1-3

 

[bramweld]

Actually yes, that is one of the biggest goal skaters need to achieve to get high marks in program components. Goals are:
1) skating (fast) into the full ice/space structure (PCS marks reflecting that are SkatingSkills, TRansitions, COmposition of the program, execution)
2) skating to the music structure (PCS marks reflecting that are INterpretation of the music, COmposition, also timing/rhythm/dancing holds/dancing Transitions)
3) skating for the audience/public (PCS marks reflecting that are PErformance, INterpretation)
Both L/D and P/P were the best of the night regarding those goals...

Well, of course these are the goals but to my untrained eye, I just thought P/P did a much better job than L/D. Their team seemed rather perplexed by their scores. But its all really close so I hope they can pull it out. When I see L/D, I see a senior level dancer Drozd, pulling around a junior ice dancer, albeit she makes valiant efforts most times.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Well, of course these are the goals but to my untrained eye, I just thought P/P did a much better job than L/D. Their team seemed rather perplexed by their scores. But its all really close so I hope they can pull it out. When I see L/D, I see a senior level dancer Drozd, pulling around a junior ice dancer, albeit she makes valiant efforts most times.

I couldn't watch both partners simultaneous to see all the details, i watched only male partners (in details), and i could see big errors from both partners of course (like M/C non-touching SS and A/T twizzles). My opinion during their skates were exactly the same one judges had (you can see i commented a little bit during the SD). L/D program is better choreographed in terms it allowed them to had harder transitions, Pavel hit all key points in blues section, they hit the rhythm, they projected well with facial expressions, they were fast, and they didn't make mistakes. I agree with you Loboda is not such an elegant skater, she doesn't have very good lines, but that is not really the thing which has priority in judging.

 

[gmyers]

IDK, maybe for similar reason why Poland does not have good solo lady since times of Anna Rechnio & somewhat good Sabina Wojtala? And no good pair since Dorota & Mariusz Siudek. Just not much resources, clubs and rinks / not enough skaters & good coaches. Btw. Albena Denkova has half-sister Ina Demireva who also competed for Bulgaria in Ice Dance but she was not successful internationally.

Siudeks were World Silver Medallists once and were winning Euro medals but nothing was done to use their success to promote discipline, and full year rinks are still hardly available. What a shame.

Very true. Like Javier Fernandez from Spain. First Spanish skater ever to medal! Sometimes one person or team just has the talent, drive, resources, gets noticed or luck, and boom! World champion. Fernandez was 20th in jr Grand Prix events. And then maybe starts a trend or maybe he is it.

 

[Art&Sport]

Eh, the young Russians are good, but there is clearly a rush here to get Russian ice dancers back into top podium mix. Judging is always suspect in figure skating, traditionally and historically. The politics is rampant. And when there is so much talent and not much that separates skaters, the scoring system is set-up for judges to be able to easily manipulate scores. When you get a range of scores that are very close, there is both subjectivity as well as rampant politics going on.

Let's see what happens in the FD, but clearly the Russian fix is written all over the scores, even among junior men. But Vincent Zhou showed them what was what, otherwise they would have had Zhou off the podium and a 1,2,3 Russian men result (the Russian guys were so heavily over-scored on PCS it isn't funny).

McNamara/Carpenter have shown vulnerabilities this season and they've lost confidence, which then leads to more vulnerability in the scoring. Parsons/Parsons have been great all season, while Loboda/Drozd are still wet behind the ears, with a great deal of promise. No need to rush to anoint L/D, but that's often how politics works, especially for the Russians.

 

[gmyers]

Eh, the young Russians are good, but there is clearly a rush here to get Russian ice dancers back into top podium mix. Judging is always suspect in figure skating, traditionally and historically. The politics is rampant. And when there is so much talent and not much that separates skaters, the scoring system is set-up for judges to be able to easily manipulate scores. When you get a range of scores that are very close, there is both subjectivity as well as rampant politics going on.

Let's see what happens in the FD, but clearly the Russian fix is written all over the scores, even among junior men. But Vincent Zhou showed them what was what, otherwise they would have had Zhou off the podium and a 1,2,3 Russian men result (the Russian guys were so heavily over-scored on PCS it isn't funny).

McNamara/Carpenter have shown vulnerabilities this season and they've lost confidence, which then leads to more vulnerability in the scoring. Parsons/Parsons have been great all season, while Loboda/Drozd are still wet behind the ears, with a great deal of promise. No need to rush to anoint L/D, but that's often how politics works, especially for the Russians.

Pairs was fixed against russia as US Canadian and British judge all worked together to reduce B/K scores. Like you say fixing failed in men's due to the jump math. The judging is showing collusion and deals and pre arrangement and golden skates Flade spoke on how Petrov was denied medal for Samarin as Russian fixing order was Aliev Samarin Petrov. The dance has wife of former president of Russian fed vs blumberg. It's a concern.

 

[Art&Sport]

Pairs was fixed against russia as US Canadian and British judge all worked together to reduce B/K scores. Like you say fixing failed in men's due to the jump math. The judging is showing collusion and deals and pre arrangement and golden skates Flade spoke on how Petrov was denied medal for Samarin as Russian fixing order was Aliev Samarin Petrov. The dance has wife of former president of Russian fed vs blumberg. It's a concern.

Like I said, fs politics is always rampant, but in general it's usually in favor of the Russians, especially in pairs. It was also traditionally true in ice dance, but clearly the Russians fell behind in ice dance, and they also lost their fist hold on top of the podium in pairs too. Part of that may have had something to do with the Russian fed's push and focus on improving their singles disciplines. And also with political and economic upheaval in Russia, there have been many Russian coaches moving to the United States which has helped the ice dance discipline in the U.S. exponentially (beginning with Shpilband and Zoueva ... now the Maryland group of Russian coaches are having great success).

And right, when skaters skate lights out, the fixing has to go out the window at least a little. Samarin and Petrov were clearly way over-scored on PCS, and Jun Hwan Cha paid the price, plus his fall in the fp helped the scoring manipulation that kept him off the podium. Korea fed does not have as much political clout, and I think Cha is seen as younger and having another chance. Zhou is also seen as young, talented and having another chance. So the pecking order was in favor of Aliev, Samarin and Petrov this year. However, Zhou said: "Watch me go quad my way to gold at junior worlds!"

Re pairs, please! I don't see the U.S. and Canadian judges working together. U.S. and Canadian fed are very competitive with each other. And please, the pairs skaters who won train in Russia!!! And Ekaterina A is Russian even though she skates with Harley for Australia. I don't see what British judge has to gain simply because Australia is part of the British Commonwealth.

Frankly, I do not like Walsh/Michaud pairing. I think Michaud needs a different partner, so we'll see how far these two will make it for Canada. Not far together I don't think. U.S. has been behind in pairs since forever. Liu and Johnson are good, but not that good. There are a lot of good Russian pairs, and if anything the depth in the Russian pairs is what helped scuttle B/K's chances to dominate. Plus Ekaterina and Harley are that good! And it's very exciting to see this well-matched young pair representing Australia! I'm very happy for Harley especially. I think a lot of skating fans are excited about Ekaterina & Harley.

Despite the fact that politics are rampant in figure skating, talent is rampant too, and sometimes the best skaters win.

 

[gmyers]

Like I said, fs politics is always rampant, but in general it's usually in favor of the Russians, especially in pairs. It was also traditionally true in ice dance, but clearly the Russians fell behind in ice dance, and they also lost their fist hold on top of the podium in pairs too. Part of that may have had something to do with the Russian fed's push and focus on improving their singles disciplines. And also with political and economic upheaval in Russia, there have been many Russian coaches moving to the United States which has helped the ice dance discipline in the U.S. exponentially (beginning with Shpilband and Zoueva ... now the Maryland group of Russian coaches are having great success).

And right, when skaters skate lights out, the fixing has to go out the window at least a little. Samarin and Petrov were clearly way over-scored on PCS, and Jun Hwan Cha paid the price, plus his fall in the fp helped the scoring manipulation that kept him off the podium. Korea fed does not have as much political clout, and I think Cha is seen as younger and having another chance. Zhou is also seen as young, talented and having another chance. So the pecking order was in favor of Aliev, Samarin and Petrov this year. However, Zhou said: "Watch me go quad my way to gold at junior worlds!"

Re pairs, please! I don't see the U.S. and Canadian judges working together. U.S. and Canadian fed are very competitive with each other. And please, the pairs skaters who won train in Russia!!! And Ekaterina A is Russian even though she skates with Harley for Australia. I don't see what British judge has to gain simply because Australia is part of the British Commonwealth.

Frankly, I do not like Walsh/Michaud pairing. I think Michaud needs a different partner, so we'll see how far these two will make it for Canada. Not far together I don't think. U.S. has been behind in pairs since forever. Liu and Johnson are good, but not that good. There are a lot of good Russian pairs, and if anything the depth in the Russian pairs is what helped scuttle B/K's chances to dominate. Plus Ekaterina and Harley are that good! And it's very exciting to see this well-matched young pair representing Australia! I'm very happy for Harley especially. I think a lot of skating fans are excited about Ekaterina & Harley.

Despite the fact that politics are rampant in figure skating, talent is rampant too, and sometimes the best skaters win.

The first paragraph is almost like there is no politics except pro Russia politics. That's how it seems to read. Russia did lose all its best talent in coaching and dance and now most work for Americans and Canadians. But like they took their talent but not any politics?

US and Canada had no pairs in contention here and both countries share a strident hatred of Russia. That's also true of Britain. You say they don't work together to harm Russia? They are doing so right now. I don't say they were working for Australia just against the Russian team that should have won. Ekaterina is working desperately every day to become Australian so how is giving her team a win good for Russia or even neutral?

 

[slider11]

Judges are not punishing them for stay junior. Their no touching step seq was terrible. It was their mistake.

I am a McNamara and Carpenter fan but I have to agree that their mistakes on the no touch step sequence was what brought them to 7th. It seemed like a complete loss of concentration and unlike them to be unable to quickly recoup. Fair is fair.

 

[madison]

Eh, the young Russians are good, but there is clearly a rush here to get Russian ice dancers back into top podium mix. Judging is always suspect in figure skating, traditionally and historically. The politics is rampant. And when there is so much talent and not much that separates skaters, the scoring system is set-up for judges to be able to easily manipulate scores. When you get a range of scores that are very close, there is both subjectivity as well as rampant politics going on.

Let's see what happens in the FD, but clearly the Russian fix is written all over the scores, even among junior men. But Vincent Zhou showed them what was what, otherwise they would have had Zhou off the podium and a 1,2,3 Russian men result (the Russian guys were so heavily over-scored on PCS it isn't funny).

McNamara/Carpenter have shown vulnerabilities this season and they've lost confidence, which then leads to more vulnerability in the scoring. Parsons/Parsons have been great all season, while Loboda/Drozd are still wet behind the ears, with a great deal of promise. No need to rush to anoint L/D, but that's often how politics works, especially for the Russians.

To be honest, I don 't think that the judges would have ever put Russians on 1, 2 and 3, even though all other men would have bombed!! the judges simply don't like the hegemony of one country, they support diversity

 

[Art&Sport]

The first paragraph is almost like there is no politics except pro Russia politics. That's how it seems to read. Russia did lose all its best talent in coaching and dance and now most work for Americans and Canadians. But like they took their talent but not any politics?

US and Canada had no pairs in contention here and both countries share a strident hatred of Russia. That's also true of Britain. You say they don't work together to harm Russia? They are doing so right now. I don't say they were working for Australia just against the Russian team that should have won. Ekaterina is working desperately every day to become Australian so how is giving her team a win good for Russia or even neutral?

Politics is rampant throughout figure skating, but let's face it, Russian led politics are quite famous in figure skating. Anyway, my first paragraph was referencing figure skating politics in general. Please remember there was such a thing as European bloc judging, and we all know about the toe-tapping Russian judge who got a slap on the wrist. Not to mention the whole 2002 scandal implications. It's not all to blame on the Russians of course. Even before there were many Russians in figure skating, there was the partly political grip hold Sonja Henie of Norway had over women's singles.

I think you are over-stating about hatred of Russian skaters. Maybe a lot of feds aren't happy with Russian fed about the doping, but OTOH, Russian skaters are widely respected, particularly by the judges. What is the "Woe is Russians" meme all about. What is it that makes you think the Russian pairs team should have won?

No matter that Ekaterina is working to become Australian. She is doing that because she wants to have success in skating and go to the Olympics, and this is now the best way for that to happen for her. Kiril Khalivian also finds his best opportunity now to skate for Spain. This doesn't mean that either Ekaterina or Kiril will no longer have ties to Russia. Their coaches are Russian and they train in Russia. There are likely many Russians who support Kiril and Ekaterina even though they each will now find their skating success with partners from other countries. This type of breaking down of global boundaries is happening all the time now in skating and in many other areas and endeavors. I think that's a good thing. In fact, due to the Internet, fs fans from all different countries now talk and sometimes meet each other and boundaries are broken. And yes nationalistic fervor still raises it's head too. Still, there is much more understanding and the opportunity to know skaters and fans from other countries and to broaden awareness and understanding.

The effects of this positivity hasn't yet made great inroads though into beneficially changing the off-putting politics unfortunately. The skaters just want to skate, and many will do whatever they have to do to be able to fulfill their passion.

To be honest, I don 't think that the judges would have ever put Russians on 1, 2 and 3, even though all other men would have bombed!! the judges simply don't like the hegemony of one country, they support diversity

Oh and @madison, you don't know your figure skating history if you don't think judges give podium sweeps. It happened at Junior Worlds as recently as 2013 for U.S. men. And there are a number of other examples you can find in juniors and seniors if you look up figure skating medal stats. Sweeps happened two years straight at Junior Worlds for U.S. ladies (2007 -2008). Plus in 1996 and in 1998, sweeps happened for Russian ladies at Junior Worlds. Those are the ones that come immediately to mind. :eeking:

 

[gmyers]

Politics is rampant throughout figure skating, but let's face it, Russian led politics are quite famous in figure skating. Anyway, my first paragraph was referencing figure skating politics in general. Please remember there was such a thing as European bloc judging, and we all know about the toe-tapping Russian judge who got a slap on the wrist. Not to mention the whole 2002 scandal implications. It's not all to blame on the Russians of course. Even before there were many Russians in figure skating, there was the partly political grip hold Sonja Henie of Norway had over women's singles.

I think you are over-stating about hatred of Russian skaters. Maybe a lot of feds aren't happy with Russian fed about the doping, but OTOH, Russian skaters are widely respected, particularly by the judges. What is the "Woe is Russians" meme all about. What is it that makes you think the Russian pairs team should have won?

No matter that Ekaterina is working to become Australian. She is doing that because she wants to have success in skating and go to the Olympics, and this is now the best way for that to happen for her. Kiril Khalivian also finds his best opportunity now to skate for Spain. This doesn't mean that either Ekaterina or Kiril will no longer have ties to Russia. Their coaches are Russian and they train in Russia. There are likely many Russians who support Kiril and Ekaterina even though they each will now find their skating success with partners from other countries. This type of breaking down of global boundaries is happening all the time now in skating and in many other areas and endeavors. I think that's a good thing. In fact, due to the Internet, fs fans from all different countries now talk and sometimes meet each other and boundaries are broken. And yes nationalistic fervor still raises it's head too. Still, there is much more understanding and the opportunity to know skaters and fans from other countries and to broaden awareness and understanding.

The effects of this positivity hasn't yet made great inroads though into beneficially changing the off-putting politics unfortunately. The skaters just want to skate, and many will do whatever they have to do to be able to fulfill their passion.



Oh and @madison, you don't know your figure skating history if you don't think judges give podium sweeps. It happened at Junior Worlds as recently as 2013 for U.S. men. And there are a number of other examples you can find in juniors and seniors if you look up figure skating medal stats. Sweeps happened two years straight at Junior Worlds for U.S. ladies (2007 -2008). Plus in 1996 and in 1998, sweeps happened for Russian ladies at Junior Worlds. Those are the ones that come immediately to mind. :eeking:

We also know about Canadian Jean Senft being suspended for national bias. You don't have to go back to the days of Sonja Henie to find non Russian politics!

The performance of b/k makes me think they should have won. Even with some problems they were so much better than any other team in both the sp and lp. The hatred is not overstated. It's just a fact US Canada and British all hate Russia. And they used the Australian team as a vehicle for their hatred.

She is becoming Australian. All her success is for Australia. Russia benefits in no way whatsoever.