2018 Canadian Nationals Senior Women - SP

[moriel]

I'm going to post the full exchange for those people who haven't watched the video.

While watching Kaetlyn Osmond's SP highlights

Debbi Wilkes: "That's something about our Canadian women in comparison to some of the other leaders...leading women in the world. Our competitors move. They cover the ice. I often feel some of the European skaters are like little mice...kind of moving around the ice surface. And I mean, this is skating, to me. Power. Speed."

Ted Barton laughs

Debbi: "It's easier to control stuff if you're going slow."

Ted: "A mouse is really small. I mean that does not move quickly, Deb. I mean you gotta come up on the rodent category and give them a little bit more credit."

Debbi is laughing

Debbi: "Well, they're great skaters, no doubt."

Ted: "Yes, they are."

Debbi: "But I prefer this. You know...blasting across the ice."

Ted: "And it's one of the great things that our two girls...or all our girls and even Alaine she's very fast --ladies, ladies!"

Debbi: "No girls!"

Ted: "Oh my gosh. Ok, one day I'll figure it out."

Debbi: "I did give him a slap. I want everybody to know."

Ted: "Yeah, right across the chops."

Debbi laughs

Ted: "Our ladies. They are all pretty fast. It's improving."

Debbi: "It's been a fantastic event."

Ted: "Yeah, it's really great. A lot of fun."

---------

Out of context, it harsh criticism. In context it's an opinion that's followed up by praise. And unrelated jokes.

I would say its not about context or harsh criticism.
I´m 100% sure she could have worded her opinion in a more professional way.

 

[Sugarpova]

Ted should comment alone

all the competitions!

 

[moriel]

Ok, I'm not interested in forum drama in the slightest but I'm seeing folks reading something different into a statement than I think was intended. Maybe it's more common to the part of Canada I hail from, but comparison to a "mouse" means timid or not making a 'wow' impression. Debbi Wilkes was saying that, for her, the big jumps and fast skating - less controlled, more go for broke - favoured in Canada makes skaters who jump smaller but consistently and concentrate on slower but intricate footwork seem, to her, apprehensive, not risking it all on a huge leap into the air, not careening across the ice at breakneck speed, ergo timid, mouse-like. It's not intended to call European skaters pests. And of course there are European skaters who are big jumpers, and Canadian skaters who are not, but she's commenting on a general style, not individuals.

Every skating federation has a favoured style. Some prefer soft landings and gentle gliding while others admire storytelling on ice. Some favour the athletic side over the artistic or vice versa. No one skating style suits every audience, or every commentator, and that's perfectly ok.

Now, I have a question about Canada. At the part of Canada where you hail from, it it ok to compare young women to mice? I understand the expression exists, but if you use this expression at someone's face, will the person be 100% fine with such comparison? Can you walk to a young lady and say she is a mouse and she will not be upset?

My issue with the comment is not her oppinion, but the way she worded it, which sounds disrespectful and unprofessional.

 

[Barb]

I'm going to post the full exchange for those people who haven't watched the video.

While watching Kaetlyn Osmond's SP highlights

Debbi Wilkes: "That's something about our Canadian women in comparison to some of the other leaders...leading women in the world. Our competitors move. They cover the ice. I often feel some of the European skaters are like little mice...kind of moving around the ice surface. And I mean, this is skating, to me. Power. Speed."

Ted Barton laughs

Debbi: "It's easier to control stuff if you're going slow."

Ted: "A mouse is really small. I mean that does not move quickly, Deb. I mean you gotta come up on the rodent category and give them a little bit more credit."

Debbi is laughing

Debbi: "Well, they're great skaters, no doubt."

Ted: "Yes, they are."

Debbi: "But I prefer this. You know...blasting across the ice."

Ted: "And it's one of the great things that our two girls...or all our girls and even Alaine she's very fast --ladies, ladies!"

Debbi: "No girls!"

Ted: "Oh my gosh. Ok, one day I'll figure it out."

Debbi: "I did give him a slap. I want everybody to know."

Ted: "Yeah, right across the chops."

Debbi laughs

Ted: "Our ladies. They are all pretty fast. It's improving."

Debbi: "It's been a fantastic event."

Ted: "Yeah, it's really great. A lot of fun."

---------

Out of context, it harsh criticism. In context it's an opinion that's followed up by praise. And unrelated jokes.

I find it still offensive, but I don´t know, maybe it is a Canadian thing (a way of expression) because it is very common canadian posters defending those kind of comments.

 

[Mathman]

Now, I have a question about Canada. At the part of Canada where you hail from, it it ok to compare young women to mice?

Well, "Are you a man or a mouse?" is a common phrase, usually used in urging a man to stand up to his wife.

It is not an outrageous insult. It would be worse to say that Russian skaters are dogs. Or pigs. Or baboons. Best to leave animal comparisons alone. :yes:

 

[Lester]

I remember after 2002 Olympics that Irina Slutskaya called Sarah Hughes a "gray mouse". LOL.

This is actually an expression in Russian. It refers to a shy, quiet and unremarkable woman that avoids attracting attention in any way. I can't think of an equivalent in English right now but there probably is one.

 

[labgoat]

Tracy is fine. She didn't say anything outrageous? It is the woman who commentated with Ted, who called European ladies (or rather the Russians) little mice. Then Ted told her 'you've got to come up in the rodent category, give them a little bit more credit'. I'm sorry but that's not for any audience.

The other commentator is Debbi Wilkes,a former Canadian pair skater. With skating partner Guy Revell, she became a two-time Canadian national champion as a teenager, the 1963 North American champion, and the 1964 Olympic silver medalist.

Wilkes/Revell were awarded the bronze medal at the 1964 Winter Olympics in Innsbruck, while gold went to Ludmila Belousova / Oleg Protopopov and silver to Marika Kilius / Hans-Jürgen Bäumler. After taking the bronze at the 1964 World Championships in Dortmund, the pair parted ways — Wilkes decided to pursue an education while Revell elected to tour professionally in ice shows.[4]

In 1966, Wilkes/Revell were informed that the silver medalists in Innsbruck, Marika Kilius / Hans-Jürgen Bäumler of Germany, had been disqualified after an International Olympic Committee investigation found they had signed pro contracts before the Olympics. IOC executive James Worrall presented Wilkes/Revell with the silver medals during the Canadian Championships in Peterborough, Ont. Later, Kilius/Baumler were reinstated in the record books, but the medals were never redistributed.[4] In December 2013, after an investigation by The New York Times, the International Olympic Committee confirmed that Kilius/Bäumler and Wilkes/Revell share the 1964 Olympic silver medal and Joseph/Joseph of the United States are the bronze medalists. Despite the information on its website over the years, the IOC stated that this was intended to be the official result since 1987.[6]

- Courtesy of Wikipedia. So endeth today in history.

 

[millie]

Now, I have a question about Canada. At the part of Canada where you hail from, it it ok to compare young women to mice? I understand the expression exists, but if you use this expression at someone's face, will the person be 100% fine with such comparison? Can you walk to a young lady and say she is a mouse and she will not be upset?

My issue with the comment is not her oppinion, but the way she worded it, which sounds disrespectful and unprofessional.

Debbie is not calling them mice, it is a Idiom.....An Idiom is a word or phrase that is not taken literally. For example, he's blind as a bat, high as a kite....Just a figure of speech....

 

[snd]

When has that EVER been the case in figure skating?

when drobiazko/vanagas were screwed over more than any other ice dance pair ever.

 

[Yatagarasu]

I find the justifications of her words far more disturbing by now than her words.

 

[3T3T]

Just watched the Top 2, can’t believe the gap back to 3rd, there will be a real battle for that final spot. Probably Daleman’s best performance of the season but I don’t think she fully commits to Carmen, deserved lead though. I expected Osmond to have an easy victory but she has work to do. I really like this programme for her, it suits her personality much more than the free, but after the fall it felt very flat. Marked very generously for what she delivered but it is nationals.

 

[QueenOfTheRoad]

Debbie is not calling them mice, it is a Idiom.....An Idiom is a word or phrase that is not taken literally. For example, he's blind as a bat, high as a kite....Just a figure of speech....

Not all idioms have however a positive connotation, in my language we have some comparison with animals which are highly racist. Just because is used, doesn't mean is ok to use it.

 

[Off My Rocker]

Just got to watch the last group of ladies SP now. When I looked at the results I was - what happened?

Being markedly less bombastic than in my younger years, I now (meekly) shy away from controversy (like a mouse?), so I’ll not comment on the commentating, except “Water off a duck”…

As for 3 skaters in the last group:

I am gutted for Alaine :sad4: – it looks like her nerves got the better of her since she performed that SP confidently and superbly in Thursday’s practice. The SP score difference between her in 9th and 3rd isn’t insurmountable so I’ll really hope for a cracking FP that can move her up.

Gabi – that was amazing! All the more so while suffering pneumonia which I hope she’ll be able to skate through well in the FP, too. Go FLY, girl! :we-need-a-soaring-bird-icon:

Kaetlyn – an amazing 2’50” minute program with one costly 2-second error. I still say ‘You rock, girl!’ (at the risk of a slap from Debbi W) Bring it in the free!

Inflated marks? Of course, this is nationals! Why change the habit of decades, even if (1) I don’t think by much for Gabi and Kaetlyn, and (2) I actually believe a couple of the other skaters might have received higher scores. IMO the placements for #1 and #2 were correct (in both PCs and total) and by about the right point spread.

I'm selfishly gutted for myself that I'll not be able to watch the FPs today live online, but wish all the girls/ladies/women...as well the men/pairs/dance...to achieve your maximum level of excellence.

Over the next few days I'll hope to catch up via DailyMotion archives and TSN on the PVR...and of course GS!

 

[millie]

Not all idioms have however a positive connotation, in my language we have some comparison with animals which are highly racist. Just because is used, doesn't mean is ok to use it.

Debbie never said that the European skaters were mice. She said that their jumps were like mice like meaning small. She could have said that they jump like mice or little jumping beans.....,Would that be racists. Reading too much into it.

 

[QueenOfTheRoad]

Debbie never said that the European skaters were mice. She said that their jumps were like mice like meaning small. She could have said that they jump like mice or little jumping beans.....,Would that be racists. Reading too much into it.

Let's read once again:
"That's something about our Canadian women in comparison to some of the other leaders...leading women in the world. Our competitors move. They cover the ice. I often feel some of the European skaters are like little mice...kind of moving around the ice surface. And I mean, this is skating, to me. Power. Speed."

Is it about jumping? Nope. Is comparing them directly with mice? Yep. But the worst i find the comparison with rodents. Do you have also a positive idiom about rodents? What is more: would you speaking with one of the European skater tell her that she is like a little mouse in moving around the ice surface? Would you compare them in their face with a rodent?

You might think is ok, i don't: should i tell you how much this kind of "oh so funny traditional idioms" have i heard against us? Perhaps my opinion should also matter before someone tell me how i read too much into it (no, i won't find it funny a comparison with rodents with anyone, not even if they would have spoken about their own skaters)? It was meant to be derogatory to the European ladies (look how great are ours, those ladies are "......"). It is not a cute comparison, it is not nice meant, i cannot find anything ok about it. As an TV person they both should know not to put gas on the fire of the xenophobia. It starts with being oh so lovely derogatory towards the others.

 

[ruffledgrouse]

This is actually an expression in Russian. It refers to a shy, quiet and unremarkable woman that avoids attracting attention in any way. I can't think of an equivalent in English right now but there probably is one.

In the US we call them 'shrinking violets' or 'wallflowers'

 

[dorispulaski]

Ted should comment alone

all the competitions!

:agree: Ted!!!


By the way, the equivalent expression for "gray mouse" in English is the adjective "mousy." As in she's a mousy little thing isn't she?

I agree with Mathman that it is best to avoid all animal comparisons! :agree: They just never quite mean the same in different countries/languages/cultures.

Deb should watch and learn.

 

[Artemisa]

I don't think the problem is that she call the competition mice ... is that she didn't show respect for the competion .. so if europeans ( that includes Kostner, Pogorilaya, Radionova, Sotskova, Medvedeva) how she would call the japonese ladies jumps ...

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Considering the lengths she went to point out to Ted how inappropriate it is to call the skaters girls and insist he call them ladies out of respect her comments do present a satirical irony.

Oh the power of silly negative comments. We should be talking about Gabby instead!! For me I was impressed mostly by her performance and not so much by her jumps. It’s a noticeable improvement from her earlier season efforts. Sometimes I’m impressed with her jumps and pretty “meh” on her actual performance. It’s nice to see the growth and especially after her injury issues.

 

[ancientpeas]

Okay..one thing here: Mice are very fast. If you have ever watched one you know that. They scurry. Scurry even means to move quickly.

I do not find the Russian skaters slow but no one throws themselves into their jumps like Kaetlyn. Sometimes to her detriment.

Kurt Browning always says nice things about Russian skaters. He really likes Alina and Evgenia. Even Evgenia's 911 program he commended for her total commitment to the program and it's emotion.

Also.. Canadians like rodents. Our national animal is a rodent. That overly dramatic groundhog gif is still super popular here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw

And I'm sure Debbie lovesssss Carolina. I've been watching and reading Debbie for ages (back before the net and the early days of the net when she had one of the few figure skating blogs and video sites out there). Carolina would be the kind of skater she loves.

And when I think what Toller would say about skaters he didn't personally care for... just the sniff (an audible sniff before the statement) would warn you that he was about to look down his nose at someone. Gosh I miss Toller.