2018 Worlds Ladies FS

[NanaPat]

I don't contradict myself, but there you go again with no reasoning or supporting evidence at all. You are under obligation to debate if you want your opinion to have worth. By refusing to debate and discuss specifics, you nullify your opinion as being one that has value. Anyone can stand around saying any random thing, but without knowledge and reasoning and analysis, it is not convincing.

It's not as if you have engaged in discussions with that degree of depth before and shown a level of expertise and objectivity (on this forum, as far as I know), so you don't even have any ground to stand on as someone whose opinion can be taken as generally credible. If you want your opinion to be credible, then yes you need to put the work and thought in. Otherwise why should anyone listen to you, unless they happen to share your same nationalistic bias?

That's precisely my point. You use a lot of words and detail and go on and on and on, but basically your opinions rest on your saying any random thing. Then doing arithmetic using your random things.

No, I haven't engaged with you on a detailed level. But I have read the opinions of those who have, and they have been much more convincing to me than you have been.

 

[BillNeal]

Kaetlyn is a very deserving champion. She is putting in stronger performances as she progresses through each season and giving the doubters less flaws to pick on. First, it's "oh but she fell x times", then it's "oh but she doubled the loop", now it's "oh but she had a stepout" (even though everything else is clean), and then it will be "oh, she was clean but she didn't do enough jumps in the second half". Doubters gonna doubt.

BTW, I have no doubt that Wakaba will one day get her moment, if she continues giving great performances .

 

[Skater Boy]

I hope Alina is okay. It has been a few days but to see such a melt down and worse the feeling she had the world on her shoulders was simply heartbreaking. I still can't believe Osmond won. You can never really say what if. But I wonder what Evgenia is really thinking now? Carolina was that her swan song or will she continue. This is almost a Kimmie Meissner moment other than Kaetlyn has a world silver medal and an olympic bronze individually and has a little more interesting her skating.

 

[Blades of Passion]

That's precisely my point. You use a lot of words and detail and go on and on and on, but basically your opinions rest on your saying any random thing.

My opinions are based on extensive personal experience and study of figure skating and other artforms. In technical expertise that has aided various coaches and skaters, in analysis of the scoring system that has created rule changes, and in knowledge of choreography and the history of the sport, which I constantly try to share with others in hopes of the sport reaching and sustaining the best form it can be in.

It is not random for me to look at a jump combo and assess it as a +1 GOE and provide examples of what I think higher GOE executions are, examining the exact technical aspects that make those elements deserve those scores. Your continued refusal to show this level of consideration means that you are either incapable of engaging in such a discussion or you don't want your own opinion to be challenged. Nobody else has engaged in this level of analysis yet with the programs of both Osmond and Higuchi, so you are flat-out lying when you say "you've seen others who have and they are more convincing."

Kaetlyn is putting in stronger performances as she progresses through each season and giving the doubters less flaws to pick on. First, it's "oh but she fell x times", then it's "oh but she doubled the loop", now it's "oh but she had a stepout"

It's nice she is showing more competitive consistency, but that doesn't remove the mistakes she is making and other people skating better. Your line of reasoning as a defense is the same flawed "judging by reputation and momentum" type of scoring that we see happening. Nobody should have to wait their turn in order to get their moment. Everyone should be scored based upon exactly what they do at a competition.

I understand if some people think that Osmond with an underrotated jump and step-out still deserved to beat a clean and strong Higuchi, but I disagree with that and wish people would rationally consider the discussion instead of being so ignorant.

 

[millie]

My opinions are based on extensive personal experience and study of figure skating and other artforms. In technical expertise that has aided various coaches and skaters, in analysis of the scoring system that has created rule changes, and in knowledge of choreography and the history of the sport, which I constantly try to share with others in hopes of the sport reaching and sustaining the best form it can be in.

It is not random for me to look at a jump combo and assess it as a +1 GOE and provide examples of what I think higher GOE executions are, examining the exact technical aspects that make those elements deserve those scores. Your continued refusal to show this level of consideration means that you are either incapable of engaging in such a discussion or you don't want your own opinion to be challenged. Nobody else has engaged in this level of analysis yet with the programs of both Osmond and Higuchi, so you are flat-out lying when you say "you've seen others who have and they are more convincing."



It's nice she is showing more competitive consistency, but that doesn't remove the mistakes she is making and other people skating better. Your line of reasoning as a defense is the same flawed "judging by reputation and momentum" type of scoring that we see happening. Nobody should have to wait their turn in order to get their moment. Everyone should be scored based upon exactly what they do at a competition.

I understand if some people think that Osmond with an underrotated jump and step-out still deserved to beat a clean and strong Higuchi, but I disagree with that and wish people would rationally consider the discussion instead of being so ignorant.

deleted

 

[BillNeal]

It's nice she is showing more competitive consistency, but that doesn't remove the mistakes she is making and other people skating better. Your line of reasoning as a defense is the same flawed "judging by reputation and momentum" type of scoring that we see happening. Nobody should have to wait their turn in order to get their moment. Everyone should be scored based upon exactly what they do at a competition.

I understand if some people think that Osmond with an underrotated jump and step-out still deserved to beat a clean and strong Higuchi, but I disagree with that and wish people would rationally consider the discussion instead of being so ignorant.

My post was mainly to indicate that there will always be people who find ways to discredit her performances and achievements. She has come a long way from the skater who placed 10th in her first junior worlds in 2012. She is arguably the most improved skater this quad, coming back from injury and re-injury, to steadily climb the ranks by improving her presentation, speed, and elements (in both difficulty and execution). In her Skate Canada 2015 FS, she fell on 5 jumps but still had the maturity to perform the step sequence to the best of her ability for the audience and judges, ending with her gracious smile. Not everyone has this type of mindset after numerous mistakes. She was left off the Worlds team by the judges that year. You could have taken my last line with a "waiting their turn" mentality but really each skater should develop their skills to a point where they can be respected as the best by both the judges and knowledgable spectators, which Kaetlyn has, a different concept altogether.

 

[Moxiejan]

I am more trained than the judges at competitions and less biased, but again, you have nothing but an assumption. You hold on to this assumption in order to confirm the nationalistic result that makes you most happy, refusing to engage in an analysis of the skating and the scores.

There is a very large difference between having unlimited time to watch and re-watch elements on a home computer before opining on what the "correct" GOE score should be & having to give that score within seconds, with only live viewing.

International-level judges have gone through countless hours of training, test judging & reviews. Yes, there might be a few bad apples. But there's no way that someone who is not ratified as an international-level judge can possibly be "more trained" than those who are.

 

[Colonel Green]

My opinions are based on extensive personal experience and study of figure skating and other artforms. In technical expertise that has aided various coaches and skaters, in analysis of the scoring system that has created rule changes, and in knowledge of choreography and the history of the sport, which I constantly try to share with others in hopes of the sport reaching and sustaining the best form it can be in.

And you assume the judges do not have all that on what basis, pray tell?

 

[bobbob]

My opinions are based on extensive personal experience and study of figure skating and other artforms. In technical expertise that has aided various coaches and skaters, in analysis of the scoring system that has created rule changes, and in knowledge of choreography and the history of the sport, which I constantly try to share with others in hopes of the sport reaching and sustaining the best form it can be in.

It is not random for me to look at a jump combo and assess it as a +1 GOE and provide examples of what I think higher GOE executions are, examining the exact technical aspects that make those elements deserve those scores. Your continued refusal to show this level of consideration means that you are either incapable of engaging in such a discussion or you don't want your own opinion to be challenged. Nobody else has engaged in this level of analysis yet with the programs of both Osmond and Higuchi, so you are flat-out lying when you say "you've seen others who have and they are more convincing."



It's nice she is showing more competitive consistency, but that doesn't remove the mistakes she is making and other people skating better. Your line of reasoning as a defense is the same flawed "judging by reputation and momentum" type of scoring that we see happening. Nobody should have to wait their turn in order to get their moment. Everyone should be scored based upon exactly what they do at a competition.

I understand if some people think that Osmond with an underrotated jump and step-out still deserved to beat a clean and strong Higuchi, but I disagree with that and wish people would rationally consider the discussion instead of being so ignorant.

I don't really have the time to go through a scoring breakdown one by one, but don't you think Wakaba's 3Lo was underrotated? I slomoed the landing, and it was clearly under. I also thought both of her 3-3s, especially the first one, had a particularly small and lacking rotation second jump, and the second triple flip was a little small and lacking rotation too. As for Kaetlyn, the 2A-3T was under on the triple toe, and the 3F-3T didn't have the best rotation on the second jump, but all the other jumps were large and cleanly landed. Components wise, both skaters had strong skating skills with Wakaba having stronger blade control and edges but Kaetlyn more power, both had great speed. Kaetlyn's step was probably overscored but it doesn't make that much of a difference if she loses a few tenths there. I would say they are about even for the long, but Kaetlyn winning on the short.

 

[LoulouVi]

Your line of reasoning as a defense is the same flawed "judging by reputation and momentum" type of scoring that we see happening. Nobody should have to wait their turn in order to get their moment. Everyone should be scored based upon exactly what they do at a competition.

I a feeling I'm stepping into a controversy I'm not prepared or willing to take part in. So forgive me for that specfic quote.

But that very sentence is, in my opinion, of great value.


During the 2014 Sochi Olympics, when Gold finished in fourth, Silvia Fontana shamelessly commented: "Well, if she keeps performing that consistently, she'll soo get the marks she really deserves. Now it's too soon".

And Maurizio Margaglio too, maybe it was another event, I heard hm talking along the same line, about someone else.

The "reputation scoring", I'm afraid, is drilled into the heads of those stupid former athlets, coaches, technicals, and judges.
And they pass it on, one generation after the other, contagiously.
Now, what hope do we have?

 

[kevinVchicago]

I a feeling I'm stepping into a controversy I'm not prepared or willing to take part in. So forgive me for that specfic quote.

But that very sentence is, in my opinion, of great value.


During the 2014 Sochi Olympics, when Gold finished in fourth, Silvia Fontana shamelessly commented: "Well, if she keeps performing that consistently, she'll soo get the marks she really deserves. Now it's too soon".

And Maurizio Margaglio too, maybe it was another event, I heard hm talking along the same line, about someone else.

The "reputation scoring", I'm afraid, is drilled into the heads of those stupid former athlets, coaches, technicals, and judges.
And they pass it on, one generation after the other, contagiously.
Now, what hope do we have?

I agree with you with my whole heart. Reputation and corridor judging in PCS need to change. They are both reprehensible, and they demean the sport.

 

[Colonel Green]

Kaetlyn goes from 4th to gold. Crazy competition!

I wonder when was the last time that someone went from off podium to gold. It could have been very recently, no idea.

Very belatedly in response: the 2015 World Championships, when Papadakis and Cizeron also went from fourth in the short to first in the free and overall.

Speaking only of the women’s event, in 2006 Kimmie Meissner was fifth in the short before coming first in the free and overall.

 

[Ziotic]

Very belatedly in response: the 2015 World Championships, when Papadakis and Cizeron also went from fourth in the short to first in the free and overall.

Speaking only of the women’s event, in 2006 Kimmie Meissner was fifth in the short before coming first in the free and overall.

Also Yuzu, was 5th last year before winning overall.

 

[Colonel Green]

Also Yuzu, was 5th last year before winning overall.

To complete the picture, it’s never happened in pairs dating back to at least the 1960s.

 

[Fruitpie]

To complete the picture, it’s never happened in pairs dating back to at least the 1960s.

Worlds, maybe. But recently we had the Olympics...

 

[Colonel Green]

Worlds, maybe. But recently we had the Olympics...

Yeah, I was only talking about Worlds.

 

[Ziotic]

Way to go Kaetlyn! You’ve already accomplished so much by earning medals at two different Olympics and then improving your world medal to becoming the champion in 2018.

The longevity of your career has already surpassed what most skaters can only hope and dream about.

 

[Casual]

Totally agree with those who wish the judges stopped playing favorites vs. underdogs, and got rid of inherently unfair "reputational scoring" (including "devoid of reality" PCS, and inflated GOEs).

Watching the "untouchable Russian" (as Johnny and Tara call them) falling on her bum once, twice, three times - in perfect harmony with music - made me laugh out loud. Very musical splats, LOL! Sorry, I know it's heartbreaking for fans and performers, but it was really funny.

But the cherry on top - it put into sharp relief how biased the judging is in favor of "expected winners and favorites". How was it possible for Alina to get such high PCS and GOEs for that complete disaster? Unreal. :disapp:

Here's hoping that perhaps ISU will reform their judging to make it fairer, both to skaters and to fans, and less prone to bias and manipulation. The sport would be better for it.

 

[Casual]

As for Alina, I wish her the best. It's tough, when the body starts changing and betrays you. I just wish I had confidence in her coaches and her federation - that they would not kick her to the curb in favor of the next best young thing (of which they have so many in the pipeline), if she doesn't adjust quickly to her changing body.

She'll need a lot of support to go through growth spurts, and I just hope she gets it from them. Wouldn't it be nice if we got a mature Russian skater like Costner, or at least like some Canadians, Americans, or Japanese - in terms of their LONGEVITY?

For fans (and skaters, I imagine), it's not fun when the federation goes through their skaters like through disposable napkins: next, next, next...

 

[Casual]

I've just watched the replays of the ladies FS. I'm so happy for Loena! I really liked her this season, and enjoyed very much her style of skating and her taste in music. Great result for her.

Also, very happy for Satoko. Wakabi was wonderful in FS. And Kaetlyn was the best!

During the Olympics, I thought Kaetlyn was underscored (while gold and silver medalists were overscored - maybe not to the point of affecting the final placements, but the gap was unfairly too wide between the three of them, IMO). So it was very nice to see her skate so well again, and win. Beautiful program, and a deserved win.

She was silver last year at Worlds, bronze at Olympics, and now finally GOLD! Congratulations!