2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating | Page 399 | Golden Skate

2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

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RoundedBackCamel said:
What I love about the classic style is the “hang time” in the air. I first noticed it with Kurt Browing’s triple axels back in the day. He steps up, then there is a delay, and then he spins, then exits with good flow. No under-rotation and certainly no prerotation. It seems nearly impossible to achieve with women doing them and I’m sure it’s not deemed as efficient.

If anyone knows what the heck I’m talking about (I’m a total layperson), do you know of any examples of women, Russian or otherwise, doing this in triple axels? Even double axels.
Click to expand...
This skater had a decent 3A: https://youtu.be/vTYctbjv1iE?t=188
 
RoundedBackCamel said:
What I love about the classic style is the “hang time” in the air. I first noticed it with Kurt Browing’s triple axels back in the day. He steps up, then there is a delay, and then he spins, then exits with good flow. No under-rotation and certainly no prerotation. It seems nearly impossible to achieve with women doing them and I’m sure it’s not deemed as efficient.

If anyone knows what the heck I’m talking about (I’m a total layperson), do you know of any examples of women, Russian or otherwise, doing this in triple axels? Even double axels.

*goes off to search vids*
Click to expand...
Delayed rotation is a sort of distinct but related topic to axel takeoff... The classic takeoff (in terms of leg action) involves the free leg swinging in front and weight transferring onto it just afterwards; the amount of delay depends on how quickly they pull in after transfer. The alternative takeoff, with the free leg tucking straight behind instead of swinging through, doesn't permit the option of delay since you go straight into the rotation position at the moment of leaving the ice.

Most women with 3As do the swingthrough: Ito, Asada, Tuktamysheva, Kihira, Kostornaia, Higuchi, Akatieva. Valieva, and now I guess Petrosyan, are the only ones who don't swing through on 3A, although there are many with 2As who also don't, like Lipnitskaya, Medvedeva, Zonov, Kolesnikov. Some skaters have bigger swingthroughs (get the leg further out ahead of them) than others, e.g Ito, Tuk, Kostornaia and most men. However, it's not possible to truly delay rotation in a 3A; even Kurt still snaps in very quickly after takeoff.

Arm action on takeoff also varies (this is independent of Rippon etc.). The left arm can be relatively passive, sometimes fixed in front (Tuktamysheva, Valieva, Kondratiuk is a male example, Lara Naki Gutmann is a 2A example), or both arms can swing forward which usually helps with jump amplitude (most Japanese and North American skaters do this).

My axels fail when I don't bring my leg through. Maybe the alternative takeoff technique is less effective for people 1.7m tall...
 
DougDorsey said:
Hm. But there were 2013s in the Moscow Championships for this age group.
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Indeed, there were. Really interesting, considering ages 11-12 in the Moscow Fed document equal birth years 2009-2010, so you'd assume ages 9-10 would equal birth years 2011-2012, but it seems that it's actually 2011-2013 🧐🤔 I'll edit my posts accordingly.
 
Some updates on some of the girls:

New 3A entry for Sasha
Anya's 4Lz - Also: Maiia (at the beginning) and Dasha (red jacket), nice to see them again

Nastya Zinina doing a SP run-through - Looking much taller, but her jumps seem to be coming back to a more consistent state, good to see her.
Nice 4S by Nika Zhilina

And to end this post - Quad shenanigans by Sofia Titova:
Brand new 4T(+2T) - She now has 3A, 4S and 4T in her arsenal, the coming seasons will be interesting for sure
1A+1Eu+4S

Despite the competition season being almost over, everyone is still training very hard and working on new elements, best of luck to them all.

Edit:
A bit older, but if some of you haven't seen them yet, check out Sofia Samodelkina's experimental Ultra-C-combinations as well:
3A+1Eu+3F and 4S+1Eu+3F
4Lo+1Eu+3S
 
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I tried rescoring Anna and Sasha's Olympic Free skates on skatingscores.com using these ISU documents: SOV/BV/GOE, PCS, trying to eliminate PCS and GOE bonuses and truly evaluate what happened on the ice, without the reputation bonus. I feel like I was kind of generous in some areas and strict in others, with both skaters. For Anna's jumps in the second half, what killed her were the edge calls, the size of her jumps and how effortful her take off technique is, additionally she is consistently rotating her combos but doesn't have much flow on the 3-3s and her extension looks rushed and isn't held well. I think we can all agree she doesn't much positive GOE on her triples. Honestly, if you look at it from a rule book stand point, her spins really aren't that great either. She travels a lot and her pointed feet make some of her camel and sit positions look unaesthetic. On the other hand, I feel like Sasha's spins don't get the credit they deserve, she actually stays centered pretty well, controls her positions and isn't slow to the point that I feel warrants a reduction in GOE. Now, with that said she lost points on her jumps because she stepped out or had a two-footed landing and while it may look like I was generous with Sasha you have to remember she gets more of the primary positive GOE, her jumps look effortless, she has great height and distance and generally solid landings, so after you even it out, she shouldn't loose too much in the end. In the choreographic sequences, both of them look tired, slow or have a lack of energy in some part or another, and don't have the best skating skills/crossovers. Anna isn't very fast moving around the rink but has better speed in the steps than Sasha who is faster around the rink than Anna. Both of them have deep edges occasionally in the StSq but for a large part of it are on flat or shallow edges.

For PCS I recognize many people believe Sasha doesn't deserve the PCS she gets, so I tried to remedy that here. I think that the marks that I have given her are justified, but I may be wrong. I feel that there is a good argument to put Anna in the 9s in the other areas of her skating. Because she has Danny G as a choreographer and he packs tons of transitions into his programs and she isn't going for 5 quads, I think 9.25 is appropriate. She is obviously capable of giving great performances (see RusNats 2021) and always sells her programs, engages the audience, etc. I think a 9 is appropriate. For composition, her program is designed to fit that music perfectly. Her motions and skating pattern reflects the feeling and rhythm of the music very nicely, when it picks up and changes tempo or mood, so does she. Whether or not you think her body movements are appropriate to tell the story, her arm movements and jumps especially match up with the music very well and she hits musical accents consistently and to great effect. I am not sure I feel about them being a whole point apart in SS but people really think Sasha's are really bad so...

Let me know what you think and if you agree or not, do you think I was too extreme or harsh? Do you think you would mark them differently yourself? (Also lets keep in mind Sasha really did land 5, count 'em 5 quads like that's HUGE, and Anna only landed 2.)

Sasha's Score: 168.86
Anna's Score: 149.51
 
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Trusova4Ever said:
I tried rescoring Anna and Sasha's Olympic Free skates on skatingscores.com using these ISU documents: SOV/BV/GOE, PCS, trying to eliminate PCS and GOE bonuses and truly evaluate what happened on the ice, without the reputation bonus. I feel like I was kind of generous in some areas and strict in others, with both skaters. For Anna's jumps in the second half, what killed her were the edge calls, the size of her jumps and how effortful her take off technique is, additionally she is consistently rotating her combos but doesn't have much flow on the 3-3s and her extension looks rushed and isn't held well. I think we can all agree she doesn't much positive GOE on her triples. Honestly, if you look at it from a rule book stand point, her spins really aren't that great either. She travels a lot and her pointed feet make some of her camel and sit positions look unaesthetic. On the other hand, I feel like Sasha's spins don't get the credit they deserve, she actually stays centered pretty well, controls her positions and isn't slow to the point that I feel warrants a reduction in GOE. Now, with that said she lost points on her jumps because she stepped out or had a two-footed landing and while it may look like I was generous with Sasha you have to remember she gets more of the primary positive GOE, her jumps look effortless, she has great height and distance and generally solid landings, so after you even it out, she shouldn't loose too much in the end. In the choreographic sequences, both of them look tired, slow or have a lack of energy in some part or another, and don't have the best skating skills/crossovers. Anna isn't very fast moving around the rink but has better speed in the steps than Sasha who is faster around the rink than Anna. Both of them have deep edges occasionally in the StSq but for a large part of it are on flat or shallow edges.

For PCS I recognize many people believe Sasha doesn't deserve the PCS she gets, so I tried to remedy that here. I think that the marks that I have given her are justified, but I may be wrong. I feel that there is a good argument to put Anna in the 9s in the other areas of her skating. Because she has Danny G as a choreographer and he packs tons of transitions into his programs and she isn't going for 5 quads, I think 9.25 is appropriate. She is obviously capable of giving great performances (see RusNats 2021) and always sells her programs, engages the audience, etc. I think a 9 is appropriate. For composition, her program is designed to fit that music perfectly. Her motions and skating pattern reflects the feeling and rhythm of the music very nicely, when it picks up and changes tempo or mood, so does she. Whether or not you think her body movements are appropriate to tell the story, her arm movements and jumps especially match up with the music very well and she hits musical accents consistently and to great effect. I am not sure I feel about them being a whole point apart in SS but people really think Sasha's are really bad so...

Let me know what you think and if you agree or not, do you think I was too extreme or harsh? Do you think you would mark them differently yourself? (Also lets keep in mind Sasha really did land 5, count 'em 5 quads like that's HUGE, and Anna only landed 2.)

Sasha's Score: 168.86
Anna's Score: 149.51
Click to expand...
Also, if you feel like they should be closer together, "factor in" (ha ha) the proposed updated PCS factoring for ladies and Anna gets a lot closer.

Feel free to make your own versions and share them for discussion.

(Anna Stans please don't come @ me 🤞)
 
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Trusova4Ever said:
I tried rescoring Anna and Sasha's Olympic Free skates on skatingscores.com using these ISU documents: SOV/BV/GOE, PCS, trying to eliminate PCS and GOE bonuses and truly evaluate what happened on the ice, without the reputation bonus. I feel like I was kind of generous in some areas and strict in others, with both skaters. For Anna's jumps in the second half, what killed her were the edge calls, the size of her jumps and how effortful her take off technique is, additionally she is consistently rotating her combos but doesn't have much flow on the 3-3s and her extension looks rushed and isn't held well. I think we can all agree she doesn't much positive GOE on her triples. Honestly, if you look at it from a rule book stand point, her spins really aren't that great either. She travels a lot and her pointed feet make some of her camel and sit positions look unaesthetic. On the other hand, I feel like Sasha's spins don't get the credit they deserve, she actually stays centered pretty well, controls her positions and isn't slow to the point that I feel warrants a reduction in GOE. Now, with that said she lost points on her jumps because she stepped out or had a two-footed landing and while it may look like I was generous with Sasha you have to remember she gets more of the primary positive GOE, her jumps look effortless, she has great height and distance and generally solid landings, so after you even it out, she shouldn't loose too much in the end. In the choreographic sequences, both of them look tired, slow or have a lack of energy in some part or another, and don't have the best skating skills/crossovers. Anna isn't very fast moving around the rink but has better speed in the steps than Sasha who is faster around the rink than Anna. Both of them have deep edges occasionally in the StSq but for a large part of it are on flat or shallow edges.

For PCS I recognize many people believe Sasha doesn't deserve the PCS she gets, so I tried to remedy that here. I think that the marks that I have given her are justified, but I may be wrong. I feel that there is a good argument to put Anna in the 9s in the other areas of her skating. Because she has Danny G as a choreographer and he packs tons of transitions into his programs and she isn't going for 5 quads, I think 9.25 is appropriate. She is obviously capable of giving great performances (see RusNats 2021) and always sells her programs, engages the audience, etc. I think a 9 is appropriate. For composition, her program is designed to fit that music perfectly. Her motions and skating pattern reflects the feeling and rhythm of the music very nicely, when it picks up and changes tempo or mood, so does she. Whether or not you think her body movements are appropriate to tell the story, her arm movements and jumps especially match up with the music very well and she hits musical accents consistently and to great effect. I am not sure I feel about them being a whole point apart in SS but people really think Sasha's are really bad so...

Let me know what you think and if you agree or not, do you think I was too extreme or harsh? Do you think you would mark them differently yourself? (Also lets keep in mind Sasha really did land 5, count 'em 5 quads like that's HUGE, and Anna only landed 2.)

Sasha's Score: 168.86
Anna's Score: 149.51
Click to expand...
Sure, Sasha should have won... Evgenia should have won... Yuna should have won... etc... 😆
 
Trusova4Ever said:
I tried rescoring Anna and Sasha's Olympic Free skates on skatingscores.com using these ISU documents: SOV/BV/GOE, PCS, trying to eliminate PCS and GOE bonuses and truly evaluate what happened on the ice, without the reputation bonus. I feel like I was kind of generous in some areas and strict in others, with both skaters. For Anna's jumps in the second half, what killed her were the edge calls, the size of her jumps and how effortful her take off technique is, additionally she is consistently rotating her combos but doesn't have much flow on the 3-3s and her extension looks rushed and isn't held well. I think we can all agree she doesn't much positive GOE on her triples. Honestly, if you look at it from a rule book stand point, her spins really aren't that great either. She travels a lot and her pointed feet make some of her camel and sit positions look unaesthetic. On the other hand, I feel like Sasha's spins don't get the credit they deserve, she actually stays centered pretty well, controls her positions and isn't slow to the point that I feel warrants a reduction in GOE. Now, with that said she lost points on her jumps because she stepped out or had a two-footed landing and while it may look like I was generous with Sasha you have to remember she gets more of the primary positive GOE, her jumps look effortless, she has great height and distance and generally solid landings, so after you even it out, she shouldn't loose too much in the end. In the choreographic sequences, both of them look tired, slow or have a lack of energy in some part or another, and don't have the best skating skills/crossovers. Anna isn't very fast moving around the rink but has better speed in the steps than Sasha who is faster around the rink than Anna. Both of them have deep edges occasionally in the StSq but for a large part of it are on flat or shallow edges.

For PCS I recognize many people believe Sasha doesn't deserve the PCS she gets, so I tried to remedy that here. I think that the marks that I have given her are justified, but I may be wrong. I feel that there is a good argument to put Anna in the 9s in the other areas of her skating. Because she has Danny G as a choreographer and he packs tons of transitions into his programs and she isn't going for 5 quads, I think 9.25 is appropriate. She is obviously capable of giving great performances (see RusNats 2021) and always sells her programs, engages the audience, etc. I think a 9 is appropriate. For composition, her program is designed to fit that music perfectly. Her motions and skating pattern reflects the feeling and rhythm of the music very nicely, when it picks up and changes tempo or mood, so does she. Whether or not you think her body movements are appropriate to tell the story, her arm movements and jumps especially match up with the music very well and she hits musical accents consistently and to great effect. I am not sure I feel about them being a whole point apart in SS but people really think Sasha's are really bad so...

Let me know what you think and if you agree or not, do you think I was too extreme or harsh? Do you think you would mark them differently yourself? (Also lets keep in mind Sasha really did land 5, count 'em 5 quads like that's HUGE, and Anna only landed 2.)

Sasha's Score: 168.86
Anna's Score: 149.51
Click to expand...
If it isn't obvious the scores are links jsyk.
 
Trusova4Ever said:
Let me know what you think and if you agree or not, do you think I was too extreme or harsh? Do you think you would mark them differently yourself? (Also lets keep in mind Sasha really did land 5, count 'em 5 quads like that's HUGE, and Anna only landed 2.)
Click to expand...
You may have seen a detailed analysis of Trusova's long program, which I published here:
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/t...-olympics-thoughts.91237/page-23#post-2954429

This is not my own analysis, as you understand, I only translated it. The same author made a similar analysis of Shcherbakova's long program, and if you want, I can publish it.

To be honest, it’s somehow even annoying to see talks about Anna’s jumps again, when it was she who had green squares both in the short program and in the free skate (in the free skate, the very first one was yellow, but then the judges removed all suspicion). Also, moving during spins is an illusion created by camera movement. This is clearly visible if you look closely at the inscriptions on the sides and marks on the ice.

Of course, I am Anna's fan and therefore my opinion cannot be completely objective, but I, in any case, have never belittled Sasha's outstanding achievements. Well, when you again talk about two quads against five - but it was Trusova who won the long program. That is, in this sense, five quads worked. But there was still a short program.

I can also tell you that I was very sorry for Sasha at the time of her nervous breakdown. I think that Anna also had rather conflicting feelings then. But what to do, there is only one first place.
 
Alex Fedorov said:
(...)
But what to do, there is only one first place.
Click to expand...
Must there, really ? I know it happened a few times in rhythmic gymnastics to have two gold medalists ; has it ever happened in figure skating before ? I would have loved to see Sasha get the gold for the legendary athletic achievement, and Anna for her smart and emotional performance. And Kaori for silver :biggrin: A girl can dream !
 
Okay, I am sorry if I offended anyone, I just wanted to share my personal opinion. I understand if anyone doesn't agree and may think differently. I am sorry for bringing up the Anna jump discussion again. I just wanted to point out that there was inflation for both skaters, and what it would look like if there wasn't. But again you are free to discard my opinion if you do not agree I am not trying to change anyone's mind or argue that Sasha was robbed/deserved gold.

Trusova4Ever said:
Sasha's Score: 168.86
Anna's Score: 149.51
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I actually thought you started a cool discussion, and in fact took a look into your scoring. But after I saw you giving Anna's 3Lz-3Lo a -3 GOE and Sasha's botched 2A-3T only -2, I gave up.


And like I said feel free to make your own protocol and correct my mistakes, I am open to your critiques, and reasonings. And yes I may have harsh there.
 
Trusova4Ever said:
Okay, I am sorry if I offended anyone, I just wanted to share my personal opinion. I understand if anyone doesn't agree and may think differently. I am sorry for bringing up the Anna jump discussion again. I just wanted to point out that there was inflation for both skaters, and what it would look like if there wasn't. But again you are free to discard my opinion if you do not agree I am not trying to change anyone's mind or argue that Sasha was robbed/deserved gold.


I actually thought you started a cool discussion, and in fact took a look into your scoring. But after I saw you giving Anna's 3Lz-3Lo a -3 GOE and Sasha's botched 2A-3T only -2, I gave up.


And like I said feel free to make your own protocol and correct my mistakes, I am open to your critiques, and reasonings. And yes I may have harsh there.
Click to expand...
I'm afraid it's like a try to "rescore" second world war. You can write fictions like Fatherland or Man from High Castle, but in the end there is still history.
 
silveruskate said:
Not about being bad or not bad. Just a new technique I noticed and we should talk about it why not? Valieva, Petrosyan and Dvoeglazova.

On @Trusova4Ever, that you marked Sasha's 4F! +3 GOE and both Anna's 3Lz! -3 GOE is all we need to know.
Click to expand...
Okay do you even look at the communications? Here are the bullets the ones in bold are required to get a +3: 1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence) 2) good take-off and landing 3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in Jump combination) 4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry 5) very good body position from take-off to landing 6) element matches the music

To get the bullets Sasha's 4F! was effortless throughout, gets the bullet, it had very good height and very good length, it gets the bullet, it had a good take off and landing (aesthetically) the communications as they are right now don't say having an "!" makes it ineligible for the good take off was bullet. It says unless these errors are present the starting positive GOE must be capped at +2 (meaning having one of these errors would deny you one of the three mandatory bullets that are required to get +4 or +5 GOE):

Copied from the communication:

GOE evaluation In case of any of the following errors, the starting GOE for the evaluation cannot be higher than +2: Fall Landing on two feet Stepping out of landing Wrong edge (e) Downgraded (<<) Serious problems during the lift Serious problems on the catch of the Twist Step Sequences and Choreographic Sequences do not correspond to the music Multiple errors in any element (e.g. in a jump element both “!” and “<”)

[Specifically for Jumps]

JUMPS: Underrotated (<): Missing rotation of more than a quarter revolution but less than half a revolution. GOE reduction -2 to -3. Landed on the quarter (q): Technical panel will indicate this with a sign “q”. GOE reduction -2.

So given, in this interpretation of the already vague rules, Sasha is eligible for +4s or +5s (as starting GOE, obviously this wouldn't be the final GOE because reductions would have to apply, i.e the "!"). She has a series of one foot and two foot transitions going into the jump, gets the bullet, the element is matched to music, gets the bullet. So, before deductions a +5 jump. Then for deductions an "!" warrants a -1 to -2 reduction in GOE. Given the fact that it is borderline outside/potentially outside, I would give it -2 in this case. So total, final GOE for this jump, in my opinion, was a +3. If you decide to say that an "!" call negates the possibility of getting the mandatory good take off and landing bullet, and she is capped at +2 before deductions, then the final GOE would be 1 or 0 for this element.

For Anna's 3Lz!, she doesn't get much height on her triples and they don't cover much ice, in my opinion, doesn't get the bullet, her posture and toe hammer (or bending the free foot and slamming it into the ice like a hammer), coupled with her wildly swinging arms, in my opinion, doesn't look effortless or constitute a (subjective) "good take off", so I wouldn't give her the bullet. So, given that she doesn't get all three of the mandatory primary bullets that would make her eligible for a +4 or +5 GOE, she is capped at a +2 or in this case, with my assessment, she didn't get any positive GOE (0). For deductions, since the "!" is borderline/potentially "e", like Sasha's flip, I gave it a -2. Add this to the -1 I gave in addition for the "Poor Takeoff" deduction, her final score for this element would be a -3.

GOE Deductions here: (See my above posts for the communication)

SP: Jump element not according to requirements final GOE must be GOE -5, Downgraded (sign << ) -3 to -4, Fall -5 Under-rotated (sign < ) -2 to -3, Landing on two feet in a jump -3 to -4, Landed on the quarter (sign q) -2, Less than quarter missing (no sign) -1, Stepping out of landing in a jump -3 to -4, Euler executed as step over -1 to -2, 2 three turns in between (jump combo) -2 to -3, Poor speed, height, distance, or air position -1 to -3, Wrong edge take off F/Lz (sign “e”) -2 to -4, Touch down with both hands in a jump -2 to -3, Unclear edge take off F/Lz (sign “!”) -1 to -2, Touch down with one hand or free foot -1 to -2, Unclear edge take off F/Lz (no sign) -1, Loss of flow/direction/rhythm between jumps (combo/seq.) -1 to -3, Poor take-off -1 to -3, Weak landing (bad pos./wrong edge/scratching etc) -1 to -3, Long preparation -1 to -3.
 
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