2021 Worlds: Men's' Short Program

[Koatterce]

OK, soooooo, tried reading through all 97 pages and all I could come up with is..........

Because Zhou is not in the top 24 at Worlds, the U.S. will have to send skater or skaters to Nebelhorn.

How many skaters can go to Nebelhorn?
Can it be Zhou?
Who picks the skaters?
What place do they have to come in at Nebelhorn?

If only 2 U.S. skaters were here at Worlds and the placement equaled 13, do they get the 3 spots for Olympics and don't have to send anyone to Nebelhorn?

Thanks!

The Olympic qualification spots are gotten similarly to world's spots (13 or fewer for 3 spots, 28 or fewer for 2), but since spots are limited, there is an extra qualification requirement. In order to qualify 2 or 3 spots, 2 or 3 skaters must make the FS respectively. Otherwise, the 2nd/3rd spot is only allotted provisionally, and must be secured at Nebelhorn. The skater at Nebelhorn cannot be one of the ones who qualified for the FS.

There is a quota for qualification spots that can be gotten at Worlds and Nebelhorn - I believe for men it's 24 at worlds and 6 at Nebelhorn. Currently, it is unclear whether the provisional spots are taken from the worlds quota or the Nebelhorn quota - but so far people think it's from the worlds quota.

In this case, if Jason & Nathan place high enough to get 3 spots (13 or less points), they get "3" spots for the Olympics. However, only 2 skaters made the FS (since Vincent missed). So instead, they have 2 secured spots and 1 provisional spot which must be secured at Nebelhorn.

Each country that has not yet qualified Olympic spots, or needs to secure a provisional spot, can send 1 skater to Nebelhorn to try. Other countries can send skaters just to compete but they don't count in terms of qualification. A country can choose anyone who did not qualify for the FS at worlds, so Vincent would be eligible to go. The skater would need to be in the top 6+x (x=number of provisional spots that need to be secured) skaters who are eligible to qualify a spot. If it turns out the other rule interpretation is correct (provisional spots are taken from Nebelhorn quota), then they would need to be in the top 6 of eligible skaters.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I talk about it because honestly it's a relevation to me. I guess I've been living on a Hanyu-free Desert Isle, but they just ambush Twitter and praise him like some deity, hanging on to his every move, and just attacking any one person or thing at odds with their thinking. Unreal.

Are his fans on balance world-wide or primarily in JPN or Asia?

Worldwide, judging by the Twitter demographic at least. Actually, a Japanese friend of mine prefers Chen over Hanyu, though of course he celebrates Hanyu's sporting achievements and supports him patriotically. Personal taste doesn't always follow national boundaries.

I think Hanyu's fanbase is larger among casual skating fans, since some of them would have been introduced to the sport through watching him. Among people I know personally who actually skate, they're about 50:50 Chen:Hanyu (or like both equally), but none of them are obnoxious. If they complain about judging at least they bother to back it up with logical arguments.

As for the bad online behaviour of some fans, it might be more of a Twitter problem than a Hanyu problem. The same rabid fandom phenomenon happens with other sports, politics and K-pop.

 

[rollerblade]

Other people already answered the rest.

If only 2 U.S. skaters were here at Worlds and the placement equaled 13, do they get the 3 spots for Olympics and don't have to send anyone to Nebelhorn?

This particular scenario is unclear to me. From their document, 1 skater earning 3 spots is a NO. But they don't talk about 2 skaters earning 3 spots. The system is stupid complicated, because only the top 2 placement for each country counts, the 3rd skater/team basically acts as "disaster insurance".

 

[Koatterce]

Other people already answered the rest.



This particular scenario is unclear to me. From their document, 1 skater earning 3 spots is a NO. But they don't talk about 2 skaters earning 3 spots. The system is stupid complicated, because only the top 2 placement for each country counts, the 3rd skater/team basically acts as "disaster insurance".

The answer is no, someone still needs to go to Nebelhorn to secure the 3rd spot because by default there is no 3rd skater who could've made the FS. Same with if 1 skater earns 2 spots - someone has to go to Nebelhorn to secure the second spot.

 

[anonymoose_au]

As for the bad online behaviour of some fans, it might be more of a Twitter problem than a Hanyu problem.

Yeah Twitter is totally an unsafe space.

I always wonder should one argue with these people? Or allow them to go merrily along cluttering up the fandom with their comments and complaints?

My new fave is when they go ballistic at the ISU not mentioning Yuzu and then when the ISU does they immediately lose it and accuse them of cashing in on him.

My mind boggles! What exactly DO they want?!

 

[rollerblade]

The answer is no, someone still needs to go to Nebelhorn to secure the 3rd spot because by default there is no 3rd skater who could've made the FS. Same with if 1 skater earns 2 spots - someone has to go to Nebelhorn to secure the second spot.

I don't see anywhere in the document explaining that part, Koatterce. Is there an updated link?

 

[Gia_Sesshoumaru]

I don't see anywhere in the document explaining that part, Koatterce. Is there an updated link?

It's on Page 3, part D.2

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Yeah Twitter is totally an unsafe space.

I always wonder should one argue with these people? Or allow them to go merrily along cluttering up the fandom with their comments and complaints?

My new fave is when they go ballistic at the ISU not mentioning Yuzu and then when the ISU does they immediately lose it and accuse them of cashing in on him.

My mind boggles! What exactly DO they want?!

It's a pain, but your own sanity comes first. I try to treat irrational fan behaviour as a contagious disease and stay away for fear of catching it...

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I've enjoyed watching the SP. My top favorites were Yuzu, Jason, and Deniss.
Though, why was Deniss scored low on PCS? He should've deserved higher.

He was skating quite slow comparing to the other top skaters. Judging it live, the programme looks much better when you're skating with better speed.

 

[Koatterce]

I don't see anywhere in the document explaining that part, Koatterce. Is there an updated link?

From the document you linked:

in D.1 (qualifying spots at worlds):
NOCs, who through their ISU Members Nation, have earned the necessary points according to Rule 378, paragraph 2b) and c) will have the right for two (2) or three (3) entries, only if, in addition, they had two (2) or respectively three (3) Skaters/Pairs/Couples qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance in the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021 (ISU Rule 400, paragraph 3).

in D.2 (qualifying spots at Nebelhorn):
NOCs which have earned the necessary points for two (2) or three (3) entries but did not have two (2) or respectively three (3) Skaters qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021. This quota place will be in addition to the quota place(s) that the NOC had earned in D.1. These ISU members are entitled to enter one (1) Skater in the qualifying event who had not qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021.

---

By default, if a country earns 2 or 3 spots points-wise but has fewer than 2 or 3 skaters entered, they cannot have 2 or 3 skaters qualify to the free. Therefore, they would not earn the 2nd or 3rd entry by rule D.1. But by rule D.2, they are now eligible to enter 1 skater (who did not qualify to the free) to get that spot

 

[pianistliz]

Worldwide, judging by the Twitter demographic at least. Actually, a Japanese friend of mine prefers Chen over Hanyu, though of course he celebrates Hanyu's sporting achievements and supports him patriotically. Personal taste doesn't always follow national boundaries.

I think Hanyu's fanbase is larger among casual skating fans, since some of them would have been introduced to the sport through watching him. Among people I know personally who actually skate, they're about 50:50 Chen:Hanyu (or like both equally), but none of them are obnoxious. If they complain about judging at least they bother to back it up with logical arguments.

As for the bad online behaviour of some fans, it might be more of a Twitter problem than a Hanyu problem. The same rabid fandom phenomenon happens with other sports, politics and K-pop.

This. Watching videos of Yuzu was my gateway into becoming a hardcore figure skating fan. I'm American and Yuzu is #1 for me, although I'm very proud that a skater of Nathan's caliber is representing the US, and when Yuzu isn't competing, I root for Nathan (and Jason and now Yuma). My husband likes Nathan's style more (it creates a bit of a friendly rivalry between us during FS competition weeks, haha). I have one good friend in the US who's into figure skating, and she's for Yuzu 1000000%. Another friend graduated from Yale and roots for Nathan. As far as I know, no one in my circle is a crazy Yuzu Twitter fan, but I know they're out there.

 

[Skater Boy]

I am in shock about Vinnie. But I know he will bounce back come olympics. A few comments no one overwhelmed me here. Hanyu was great though as usual. I do think Nathan is way overmarked for pcs. I honestly think skaters like Messing, Kolyada et others should be ahead. It is a bit ridiculous that one quad and the pc lead of Brown is demolished just like this. Shomo was our male trusova but will bounce back. I like Brown's skating but I admit his ceiling is reached fast. I don't think Chen with a fall should be ahead of Kolyada, Messing. As a result of Chen's generous pbcs he is still in the hunt for gold.

 

[moonvine]

I just went back and watched Keegan’s shots with NBCSN commentary. At least Johnny has stopped saying bad things about him. I’m not sure what to make of the “he’s equivalent to any food wrapped in bacon” connect. But it’s better than “how dare he bring that hot mess of a Chaplin program after Hanyu skated.”

 

[lariko]

I'm sorry, WHAT is this this INSANE remark? Morisi needs ONE Olympic slot less than the US men need three?

Like, you do realise that's what you're saying, right? By qualifying for the FS Morisi has earned Georgia one single Olympic spot for their men.

You can be sad about Vincent's skate sure, but I'm not going to play sob story that a big country might have to wait a moment to confirm three spots because a bunch of smaller countries managed to get one, jesus christ.

No, only that Kvitashvili doesn’t face the same internal pressures as Zhou. I think countries get one slot by default. Kvitashvili, at least for the time being is that one guy who always goes when they need a figure skater in Georgia. Even if he doesn’t get Olympic assignment, it is not career ending, while for Zhou this could very well be.

 

[karne]

I think countries get one slot by default.

NO THEY DON'T.

Do you really think anyone here would be half so stressed about Olympic spots if every country got one automatically?

Every country has a spot at Worlds by default if they have a skater to fill it. But there are a limited number of Olympic spots to go round. The countries have to fight for them. Morisi absolutely needed it more.

 

[karne]

No in this case I don't.

There is in fact a Vincent hate club, not on here, but it's out there. They absolutely despise him, like I've never actually seen such visceral hate for a skater in my life.

And if that sounds horrible it's because it is.

So you just had you head shoved in the sand while Adelina Sotnikova was getting death threats for not even doing anything wrong? Good to know.

 

[anonymoose_au]

So you just had you head shoved in the sand while Adelina Sotnikova was getting death threats for not even doing anything wrong? Good to know.

What, of course not.

Unfortunately I already knew about them before going into Insta or Twitter.

The Vincent hate was completely out of left field. I'm well aware you believe he deserves it. But if those who hate him haven't said a single wrong thing in their lives I'd be sincerely surprised.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Anybody else get nostalgic for Denis Ten's Silk Road programme while watching Kagiyama?

 

[nicfanz]

If they ever let fans come back, let them judge who's the best. I bet based on reaction, Hanyu and even Shoma will beat Nathan. Some skaters can only win with judges' favoritism despite no connection with fans.

 

[moonkat]

I think Nathan isn't interested in "artistry". He isn't interested in using skating to tell stories or touch hearts.
I don't mean he doesn't work hard, but he probably isn't interested or comfotable with getting into character.