2023-2024 Russian Nationals Jumping Championships

[Jelle307]

I have a question concerning the jumping tournament:
What is the qualification on friday? Does every person have to qualify for the weekend?!


And yes, neutral athletes are already allowed at Olys 24.

 

[Skating91]

I have seen again and again this year the women with ultra c (3A, 4T) losing to women without, based on edges, UR and PCSs. You really need to watch international skating. No Russian has PCS that would satisfy tech panel and judges that do not have Russian officials on it. I dunno how to explain it in terms that people who only watch Russian competitions and compare the scores would understand. I just now watched Shiryaeva land combos the Canadian women can only dream of, and receive 4th place with 3 edge calls and PCSs in the 4th, when girls who couldn't stay on their feet won with doubles and pops. Shiryaeva jumped solid 3Lz3T and 3Lzeu3S without a single fall in short or free, and you know who beat her to the 3rd place? A girl who could be sent to Junior competitions because she doesn't have a 3Lz and who fell on her only triple-triple combo AND who was behind Shiryaeva in the short. And the winner was? The girl they sent to Junior worlds, because they don't think she can scrape together technical min for seniors. Oh, and the second place went to Schizas who didn't show anything at all, including missing one combo outright. I doubt that one woman who shows up whenever is going to get a different treatment from Japanese technical panel and judges. Look at how Japanese want to skate: great glide and barely any choreo except a couple of hand movements here and there. Russians are exactly the opposite. Well, that's 4 to 6 in PCS, and they are out.

9/10 top spots in the World in women are already pretty much spoken for: 3 Japanese, 3 Korean, 2 Belgian and 1 USA.

The top 3 of the Russian championships should be ahead in PCS compared to the winner of a championship I watch last weekend. Easily too.

 

[lariko]

The top 3 of the Russian championships should be ahead in PCS compared to the winner of a championship I watch last weekend. Easily too.

You know, I am not going to waste my time here on dissuading someone from a nice, comforting beliefs. I mean, I would be happy to see Samodelkina do well and can't wait to cheer for her internationally.

 

[Jeanie19]

Any word on Samodelkina's release to Kazakhstan?

 

[Mathematician]

Akatieva is likely finished

Assumptions on Valieva: only positive, she can get back to peak olympic shape

Assumptions on anybody else: ITS OVER. GIVE UP. SHES FINISHED!!!

Shcherbakova won the olympics after breaking her leg, give Akateva a break with some damn shin splints she was already confirmed to be training when she shouldnt have now that shes actually resting its fine. Sinitsyna and Frolova couldnt skate for months with the same exact problem and came back better than ever. I dont understand, everyone says Valieva is good why do you have to give doomsday prognoses to anybody who could be competition. Just be real.

I have seen again and again this year the women with ultra c (3A, 4T) losing to women without, based on edges, UR and PCSs. You really need to watch international skating. No Russian has PCS that would satisfy tech panel and judges that do not have Russian officials on it. I dunno how to explain it in terms that people who only watch Russian competitions and compare the scores would understand. I just now watched Shiryaeva land combos the Canadian women can only dream of, and receive 4th place with 3 edge calls and PCSs in the 4th, when girls who couldn't stay on their feet won with doubles and pops. Shiryaeva jumped solid 3Lz3T and 3Lzeu3S without a single fall in short or free, and you know who beat her to the 3rd place? A girl who could be sent to Junior competitions because she doesn't have a 3Lz and who fell on her only triple-triple combo AND who was behind Shiryaeva in the short. And the winner was? The girl they sent to Junior worlds, because they don't think she can scrape together technical min for seniors. Oh, and the second place went to Schizas who didn't show anything at all, including missing one combo outright. I doubt that one woman who shows up whenever is going to get a different treatment from Japanese technical panel and judges. Look at how Japanese want to skate: great glide and barely any choreo except a couple of hand movements here and there. Russians are exactly the opposite. Well, that's 4 to 6 in PCS, and they are out.

9/10 top spots in the World in women are already pretty much spoken for: 3 Japanese, 3 Korean, 2 Belgian and 1 USA.

Who internationally jumped clean ultra c this season? I heard Amber Glenn mightve hit one 3A? Also theres plenty Russian girls with good PCS: Sinitsyna, Frolova, Mura, Petrosian, Sadkova and your favourite Valieva wouldnt struggle at all.

2nd place was 203 at GPF, if you think Samodelkina cant crack that with her stable 3A then you're crazy.

 

[Mathematician]

The top 3 of the Russian championships should be ahead in PCS compared to the winner of a championship I watch last weekend. Easily too.

Top 5 + Sadkova ignoring her melt down. Easily.

 

[lariko]

Who internationally jumped clean ultra c this season?

Sumiyoshi landed a 4T, Glenn landed an awesome 3A and in juniors you have Korean and Japanese doing 3A (and of course Shimada). Their PCSs are only high domestically. They won't see these kind of numbers internationally, because they do NOT have deep knees and glide, which is now how PCSs are determined, not by transitions and choreo/drama any longer. Thankfully, some of them have speed, so the Japanese might okay that, but never the knees and the glide. They just don't have it, none of them. You need to see them live to see the difference. Have you seen Sakamoto live? I did.

 

[icewhite]

Assumptions on Valieva: only positive, she can get back to peak olympic shape

Assumptions on anybody else: ITS OVER. GIVE UP. SHES FINISHED!!!

Shcherbakova won the olympics after breaking her leg, give Akateva a break with some damn shin splints she was already confirmed to be training when she shouldnt have now that shes actually resting its fine. Sinitsyna and Frolova couldnt skate for months with the same exact problem and came back better than ever. I dont understand, everyone says Valieva is good why do you have to give doomsday prognoses to anybody who could be competition. Just be real.


Who internationally jumped clean ultra c this season? I heard Amber Glenn mightve hit one 3A? Also theres plenty Russian girls with good PCS: Sinitsyna, Frolova, Mura, Petrosian, Sadkova and your favourite Valieva wouldnt struggle at all.

2nd place was 203 at GPF, if you think Samodelkina cant crack that with her stable 3A then you're crazy.

You never know who gets which PCS until you've seen it. Who would ever give Trusova 8s, even 9s...
The Eteri girls got amazingly inflated scores and we don't know if they would still get them or what others would get if they don't have the crazy jumps. For me Frolova stands out among the Russian women, because she actually listens to the music and interpretes it instead of rushing through it all, and I would expect her to have very good PCS, but she doesn't have an ultra c and is no Eteri girl, so who knows. In my eyes Muravieva has the best long term potential of them all. I think her 3A could be there to stay and she has the abilities for very good PCS, although I don't think she used them this season.
Internationally I think Glenn (once?) and Hoshida (several times) have landed 3A. In theory Wakaba Higuchi, Rinka Watanabe have a 3A, both have landed them in the past, but I don't remember it this season. It's worthwhile remembering that even when Hoshida lands her 3A she doesn't get high PCS. Higuchi never got high PCS even when she was clean and landing the 3A... despite deep edges and speed... an "ultra c" was never an immediate PCS catapult.
Mao Shimada I think landed 4T and 3A but I'm not sure she'll keep them into seniors. There are at least two more skaters (japanese juniors?) who landed a 3A... but I don't remember who... Sumiyoshi landed the 4T, but still doesn't get great PCS despite having really nice skills and presentation.

 

[icewhite]

About this tournament: I like the idea of the show tournament much better, this is more a gimmick to me, but I will likely watch this as such.

 

[lariko]

You never know who gets which PCS until you've seen it. Who would ever give Trusova 8s, even 9s...
The Eteri girls got amazingly inflated scores and we don't know if they would still get them or what others would get if they don't have the crazy jumps. For me Frolova stands out among the Russian women, because she actually listens to the music and interpretes it instead of rushing through it all, and I would expect her to have very good PCS, but she doesn't have an ultra c and is no Eteri girl, so who knows. In my eyes Muravieva has the best long term potential of them all. I think her 3A could be there to stay and she has the abilities for very good PCS, although I don't think she used them this season.
Internationally I think Glenn (once?) and Hoshida (several times) have landed 3A. In theory Wakaba Higuchi, Rinka Watanabe have a 3A, both have landed them in the past, but I don't remember it this season. It's worthwhile remembering that even when Hoshida lands her 3A she doesn't get high PCS. Higuchi never got high PCS even when she was clean and landing the 3A... despite deep edges and speed... an "ultra c" was never an immediate PCS catapult.
Mao Shimada I think landed 4T and 3A but I'm not sure she'll keep them into seniors. There are at least two more skaters (japanese juniors?) who landed a 3A... but I don't remember who... Sumiyoshi landed the 4T, but still doesn't get great PCS despite having really nice skills and presentation.

Yes, Hana Yoshida, thank you! I was right there too, lol! And for Glenn's.

I also think that Murav'eva would be the best choice atm, but things change.

 

[Mathematician]

You never know who gets which PCS until you've seen it. Who would ever give Trusova 8s, even 9s...
The Eteri girls got amazingly inflated scores and we don't know if they would still get them or what others would get if they don't have the crazy jumps. For me Frolova stands out among the Russian women, because she actually listens to the music and interpretes it instead of rushing through it all, and I would expect her to have very good PCS, but she doesn't have an ultra c and is no Eteri girl, so who knows. In my eyes Muravieva has the best long term potential of them all. I think her 3A could be there to stay and she has the abilities for very good PCS, although I don't think she used them this season.
Internationally I think Glenn (once?) and Hoshida (several times) have landed 3A. In theory Wakaba Higuchi, Rinka Watanabe have a 3A, both have landed them in the past, but I don't remember it this season. It's worthwhile remembering that even when Hoshida lands her 3A she doesn't get high PCS. Higuchi never got high PCS even when she was clean and landing the 3A... despite deep edges and speed... an "ultra c" was never an immediate PCS catapult.
Mao Shimada I think landed 4T and 3A but I'm not sure she'll keep them into seniors. There are at least two more skaters (japanese juniors?) who landed a 3A... but I don't remember who... Sumiyoshi landed the 4T, but still doesn't get great PCS despite having really nice skills and presentation.

Frolova listens to the music and Sinitsyna doesnt? Frolova doesnt stand out much. Historically Sinitsyna was a standout amongst everyone even internationally. Even if her FS was lackluster this season. Thats a fluke. Last season Akateva had the best PCS by far from anybody and Petrosian this season was fine alongside Muravieva - Kaori really wasnt an outlier compared to them and yes I watched her.

When Trusova was with Plushenko I would easily give her 8s in presenations/composition. Her Frida SP was also totally fine. Her olympic performance of that deserved good presentation/composition. I dont know what inflated scores have to do with anything in this current discussion. Eteri girls got high 9s when they couldve got high 8s instead. That doesnt account for almost 30 total points of difference between first at GPF and RusNats.

they do NOT have deep knees and glide, which is now how PCSs are determined

Thats is just one factor of SS which is 1/3 of all PCS factors. Russian lack it, just like everyone else lacks the BV or speed. Its a tradeoff. Meanwhile there is no gap in presentation/composition which is 2/3. See Leona Hendricks.

I also think that Murav'eva would be the best choice atm, but things change.

Explain why Muravieva is a better choice than Petrosian.

 

[lariko]

And even with 8th and 9th in PCSs and jumping ability that far exceeded what the current gen of Russian women can put across two programs Trusova had a hard time winning. Her bronze was a result of Kihira's meltdown skate. Her silver in Olympics was earned by a barrage of jumps that won't be matched again. And that was when Russian officials, judges and techs were sitting in the panels. Qualifying the officials will take time after the ban is removed. Until then, Russian women will likely to see 5s and 6s in their PCS sheets.

 

[Mathematician]

Russian women will likely to see 5s and 6s in their PCS sheets.

@Skating91 Valieva's SP gets 5/6 PCS - thoughts?

 

[lariko]

Thats is just one factor of SS which is 1/3 of all PCS factors. Russian lack it, just like everyone else lacks the BV or speed. Its a tradeoff. Meanwhile there is no gap in presentation/composition which is 2/3. See Leona Hendricks.

One the paper, yes. But they now just prorate it to the other 2, eliminating choero and transitions. Skating skill now equals coverage and coverage equals composition. And presentation is glide + speed not performance ability. They don't like big drama in skating that Russians do. They want smooth glide for 4 min that puts you to sleep. If you snooze by minute 3, that's 8s and 9s. If you are awake, that's 6 and 7.

 

[lariko]

@Skating91 Valieva's SP gets 5/6 PCS - thoughts?

She absolutely will. And a 3-4 out of 7 of judges will give her 4.75 in presentation.

 

[Mathematician]

One the paper, yes. But they now just prorate it to the other 2, eliminating choero and transitions. Skating skill now equals coverage and coverage equals composition. And presentation is glide + speed not performance ability. They don't like big drama in skating that Russians do. They want smooth glide for 4 min that puts you to sleep. If you snooze by minute 3, that's 8s and 9s. If you are awake, that's 6 and 7.

Oh so the scoring criteria is subjectively changed against what the actual rulebook says, thats really fair for me to try to argue against.

 

[Skating91]

Assumptions on Valieva: only positive, she can get back to peak olympic shape

Assumptions on anybody else: ITS OVER. GIVE UP. SHES FINISHED!!!

Valieva has some how survived one of the most abrupt periods of growth 15-17 that any top female skater has dealt with while maintaining many of her jumps. It's unheard of. I mean this in the best way, but she probably has the most suboptimal physique for figure skating now let alone jumping quads. She's in great shape and a great athlete, but it's a sport made for females like Petrosian, Muraviova, Bazyluk. The physics of rotating multiple times in the air favour this body shape. Even the top skaters well into their 20's or even their 30's are almost devoid of any secondary characteristics, of course there are exceptions but this is the general rule. Again, this is just an observation and is not a criticism of anyone in anyway.

Akatieva by the time she is competing again will have been out of competition 18 months, she will have grown in this time. The odds are against her, much like once Shcherbakova and Trusova grew their careers were over.

I think Petrosian has a growth spurt it will be over for her as well. The jumps are low as it is. When I say over, I mean in Russia competing for medals. Of course, anywhere else in the world they could skate for another 5 years and compete for big medals.

Shcherbakova won the olympics after breaking her leg, give Akateva a break with some damn shin splints she was already confirmed to be training when she shouldnt have now that shes actually resting its fine. Sinitsyna and Frolova couldnt skate for months with the same exact problem and came back better than ever. I dont understand, everyone says Valieva is good why do you have to give doomsday prognoses to anybody who could be competition. Just be real.

Who internationally jumped clean ultra c this season? I heard Amber Glenn mightve hit one 3A? Also theres plenty Russian girls with good PCS: Sinitsyna, Frolova, Mura, Petrosian, Sadkova and your favourite Valieva wouldnt struggle at all.

2nd place was 203 at GPF, if you think Samodelkina cant crack that with her stable 3A then you're crazy.

Maybe you misunderstand me. I'm saying Samodelkina will compete for Olympic gold.

 

[Skating91]

She absolutely will. And a 3-4 out of 7 of judges will give her 4.75 in presentation.

So Loena comes out after Valieva skates her flawless short program, and they are going to give 9.0 or 9.5 for a far inferior program where Loena rarely rotates her jumps unlike Kamila who almost always rotates her jumps.

 

[Skating91]

You never know who gets which PCS until you've seen it. Who would ever give Trusova 8s, even 9s...
The Eteri girls got amazingly inflated scores and we don't know if they would still get them or what others would get if they don't have the crazy jumps.

Only Trusova was inflated relative to Valieva and Shcherbakova, but Trusova not heavily inflated relative to the rest of the field considering the complexity of her programs. On the weekend the winner of a short program got 74 I think it was where the first jump of the combo was borderline q and the second jump should have got a q if not underrotation.

Mao Shimada I think landed 4T and 3A but I'm not sure she'll keep them into seniors. There are at least two more skaters (japanese juniors?) who landed a 3A... but I don't remember who... Sumiyoshi landed the 4T, but still doesn't get great PCS despite having really nice skills and presentation.

Shimada has landed 1 clean 4T out of her last 9 attempts I think it is in international competition. Her 3A is very stable though.

Rion landed one this year but it was heavily underrotated (very clear watching live), then they gave high GOE I think +3 from most judges.

 

[AlexBreeze]

I have a question concerning the jumping tournament:
What is the qualification on friday? Does every person have to qualify for the weekend?!

It looks like they'll give a bye to the individual event to everyone who qualified to the team event (pairs who took 1-2 places at Nats, singles who took 1-3 places). But this isn't confirmed.