2025 CS Lombardia Trophy Men's Free Skate

[lariko]

Strangely I was never a Boitano fan back then. I knew I should be, but I just wasn't. But in a way, that's what is exciting about figure skating isn't it? You never really know what you would like or not.

For American women, I always thought that Kwan was overrated (technically weak), but I knew I was in the minority as everyone loved her. I did love Sasha Cohen though, there was something about her that I just loved.

I must say I do miss the Russians. Not the men so much, but the women always had some tricks up their sleeves. My fave skater of all time is probably Shcherbakova.

Oops sorry. Got a little off topic there...

It's okay, I miss them too. The Japanese men do add that 'I'm insane, watch me burn!' factor, but like, it takes a Russian to rip the shirt's collar open and charge in, hell or frozen water with a complete and utter disregard for viewers' nerves.

 

[Magill]

Maybe I would like it, too, if I were better at it.

More often I find myself in the position of the character in the movie Shawshank Redemption who heard the Letter Duet from the Marriage of Figaro played over the prison loudspeaker.

"I have no idea to this day what those two I-talian ladies were singing about. Truth is,I don't want to know. Some things are better left unsaid. I'd like to think they were singing about something so beautiful it can't be expressed in words and makes your heart ache because of it."

And in fact, when I looked up the words and the setting, I came away less moved by the music than I had In get yor sadneebeen when it was just me and Mozart.

I get your sadness. Still I love good lyrics more than anything.

 

[lariko]

Maybe I would like it, too, if I were better at it.

More often I find myself in the position of the character in the movie Shawshank Redemption who heard the Letter Duet from the Marriage of Figaro played over the prison loudspeaker.

"I have no idea to this day what those two I-talian ladies were singing about. Truth is,I don't want to know. Some things are better left unsaid. I'd like to think they were singing about something so beautiful it can't be expressed in words and makes your heart ache because of it."

And in fact, when I looked up the words and the setting, I came away less moved by the music than I had been when it was just me and Mozart.

I am one of those people who read running translation in the Opera to make sure I know why that gent is screaming his lungs out

 

[Arigato]

WHAT IS ARTISTRY?

 

[Mathman]

For American women, I always thought that Kwan was overrated (technically weak)..

I think it depends on when you started following Michelle's career. After all, she competed at the highest levels for a decade.

At first she was regarded as a prodigy jumping bean, mastering all her triples (minus the Axel) by age 12. At this point she snuck off against the wishes of her coach and tested for U.S. senior status. At Junior Worlds that year, she was the best jumper and was especially praised for her triple Lutz-double toe combination (judges weren't so fussy about flutzing back then. Both Midori Ito and Kristi Yamaguchi had done 3Lz+3T earlier in the decade -- in fact, both at the same competition (1991 Trophee Lalique) but this skill fell by the wayside for a decade or so afterward) -- maybe except for Surya Bonaly?).

Michelle had a 3T+3T combination in her early days, which she landed about half the time (14 times in major competition in all). She practiced two endings for her programs -- if she hit on the 3T+3T then she did a split jump at the end, and if she missed the triple-triple she did an extra 3T as her last jump instead to bring her triple count up.

Anyway, by the time Sasha Cohen came along, many others had caught up and passed her technically, though none with enough consistency to knock her off her perch. At 1998 U.S. Nationals the buzz was that other girls would be going for the triple flip as the solo jump in the SP, instead of the triple toe. Michelle had no choice but to make the upgrade, too. Although she was spectacularly successful at that competition, delivering perhaps the finest SP of her career. still the triple flip was never her favorite and sometimes let her down, for instance at the 2002 Olympics.

In compensation, though, by this time-- the middle of her career -- she was so far out in front on the second mark that she kept on winning U.S, and World Championships until chronic injuries began to take their toll.

 

[4everchan]

Well well... are we really thinking that adding voiceovers is"artistic" ?

"Artistry" in figure skating used to be how someone skates... not to what they skate, and definitely not to what words are said during a program.

 

[lariko]

Well well... are we really thinking that adding voiceovers is"artistic" ?

"Artistry" in figure skating used to be how someone skates... not to what they skate, and definitely not to what words are said during a program.

Artistry is about expressing self. Be it 17th century violin concerto or a collection of inspirational quotes. I could see from this skate that it had meaning. So did the judges.

Personally, I prefer to glimpse that the piece means something to the skater in some way shape or form. Not that they just skate to what the team gave them because it was on sale and they can match their glide to it. Originality also gets points from me, because i am at the point of considering Roxane a cruel and unusual punishment.

I mean, i guess, other peeps do better with the regular selections of du jour.

New/different is always a risk and Ilia is not the first and won't be last to be criticized for trying to skate to text/message. It's just exaggerated because he is a champion and people have problems.

 

[YuBluByMe]

Okay, I had to rewatch Ilia’s skate because ya’ll talking about voice-overs that I just didn’t hear when I watched it live. (I was distracted and missed Kagiyama’s skate too). I don’t think they’re as bad as all that

Spoiler

I was eagerly waiting for that booty quote too

but if that’s actually his voice, then he would do well to remove them because he’s setting himself for ridicule. I changed my mind about the backflip. It’s well-placed and works well with the music. It’s the knee slide thingie that should be removed. When watching live he actually looked like he was struggling to hold the position and not fall. I see a random -1 in his future.

Choreographic moves like that just aren’t him. The acrobatics that younger skaters are trying out is what he’a good at and the raspberry twist is going to end up an “unofficial” named move like Rippon jump and Kerrigan spiral.

I liked last year’s free better. That was his best! This is a better free than the others, though and it’s something different he’s never tried before and I welcome that.

 

[Jontor]

I think it depends on when you started following Michelle's career. After all, she competed at the highest levels for a decade.

At first she was regarded as a prodigy jumping bean, mastering all her triples (minus the Axel) by age 12. At this point she snuck off against the wishes of her coach and tested for U.S. senior status. At Junior Worlds that year, she was the best jumper and was especially praised for her triple Lutz-double toe combination (judges weren't so fussy about flutzing back then. Both Midori Ito and Kristi Yamaguchi had done 3Lz+3T earlier in the decade -- in fact, both at the same competition (1991 Trophee Lalique) but this skill fell by the wayside for a decade or so afterward) -- maybe except for Surya Bonaly?).

Michelle had a 3T+3T combination in her early days, which she landed about half the time (14 times in major competition in all). She practiced two endings for her programs -- if she hit on the 3T+3T then she did a split jump at the end, and if she missed the triple-triple she did an extra 3T as her last jump instead to bring her triple count up.

Anyway, by the time Sasha Cohen came along, many others had caught up and passed her technically, though none with enough consistency to knock her off her perch. At 1998 U.S. Nationals the buzz was that other girls would be going for the triple flip as the solo jump in the SP, instead of the triple toe. Michelle had no choice but to make the upgrade, too. Although she was spectacularly successful at that competition, delivering perhaps the finest SP of her career. still the triple flip was never her favorite and sometimes let her down, for instance at the 2002 Olympics.

In compensation, though, by this time-- the middle of her career -- she was so far out in front on the second mark that she kept on winning U.S, and World Championships until chronic injuries began to take their toll.

Still

I started following figure skating in 1994, so I am well aware of Kwan's whole career. What I remember the most is at Worlds 99 when Kwan had a terrible short program...and she was still 4th!!! after the short! WTF! She had a bad 3Flutz+2T, fell on her 2A, and a 3T as solo jump. Her spins were never great. But...she had the best spirals (back in the day when spirals were mandatory).
If you look at the top 12 top short programs at that event, Kwan was the 12th, not 4th. So there you have it with the old system when judges manipulated the placings through what we now call PCS.
For reference, here is Lucinda Ruh's short program that year. She was 12th after the short, but way better than Kwan imo. She had a 3T+2T then a 3Lo and a 2A. And of course all of her spins were just out of this world.

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And if you look at the other skaters 5th-11th, they were all better than Kwan (well, imo obviously).

 

[4everchan]

Artistry is about expressing self.

that's one way of defining artistry. It can also be a "focus on aesthetics" or "seeking beauty"

Be it 17th century violin concerto or a collection of inspirational quotes.

are they inspirational ?

I could see from this skate that it had meaning. So did the judges.

The judges have to give points. He skated well enough to get points. They are not there to judge voiceovers

Maybe it has meaning for him, but sharing these quotes at the Olympics is tacky : my opinion. Sorry.

Personally, I prefer to glimpse that the piece means something to the skater in some way shape or form. Not that they just skate to what the team gave them because it was on sale and they can match their glide to it. Originality also gets points from me, because i am at the point of considering Roxane a cruel and unusual punishment.

But how original are voiceovers to start with ?

I mean, i guess, other peeps do better with the regular selections of du jour.

New/different is always a risk and Ilia is not the first and won't be last to be criticized for trying to skate to text/message. It's just exaggerated because he is a champion and people have problems.

voiceovers are not new. To me, and I respect opinions or others who like it, it's "artsy fartsy open mike" sort of "poetry"

this being said, to each their own. Ilia knew what game he was playing coming up with this program. It's his gamble. He knew some old dudes like me may not like it... and he certainly is not trying to please me and that's all fine.

I am going to relish Yuma's programs the most this year I thank Yuma for delivering my kind of skating

 

[lariko]

that's one way of defining artistry. It can also be a "focus on aesthetics" or "seeking beauty"

are they inspirational ?

The judges have to give points. He skated well enough to get points. They are not there to judge voiceovers

Maybe it has meaning for him, but sharing these quotes at the Olympics is tacky : my opinion. Sorry.

But how original are voiceovers to start with ?

voiceovers are not new. to me, and I respect opinions or others who like it, it's "artsy fartsy open mike" sort of "poetry"

And i figure artsy-fartsy is still artistic, and artistic streak moved Ilia to pick it. Non artistic person imo would have added Olympic year and Italy and would have asked his team to pick whatever opera the think is the best. Which I think will happen next, given how fast his team reacts to critique and the amount of backlash. So, I am sure we'll be treated to raspberry twist and backward flip with Tosca and golden lace by the time GPF rolls around. Then, everyone would criticize Ilia for predictable choices.

 

[Mathman]

...For reference, here is Lucinda Ruh's short program that year.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

The origin of the Dick Buttonism, "Good for you, Lucinda Ruh!"

Yeah, that whole competition was a relative disaster for Michelle. Oh, well.

 

[lariko]

I am sure happy though that Malinin's quotes reminded me of Firefly, and that I can now fantasize of him skating as Mal to that theme song.

 

[Mathman]

that's one way of defining artistry...

OT, who is the skater pictured in your avatar?

 

[Jontor]

The origin of the Dick Buttonism, "Good for you, Lucinda Ruh!"

Yeah, that whole competition was a relative disaster for Michelle. Oh, well.

Still

And I must admit...I never really forgave Kwan after that. She got the silver in the end, which she did NOT deserve imo (because of that disastrous short)...and I was bitter...

Well, those were the times. All I can do is laugh about it now

 

[Mathman]

I am sure happy though that Malinin's quotes reminded me of Firefly, and that I can now fantasize of him skating as Mal to that theme song.

OK. you wore me down. I had to look up what this "Firefly" was and who is Malcom.

Is this the music that you are recommending to Ilia?

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

As for me, my recommendation for Ilia would be either that or Kalinnikov's first symphony (2nd movement).

 

[4everchan]

And i figure artsy-fartsy is still artistic, and artistic streak moved Ilia to pick it. Non artistic person imo would have added Olympic year and Italy and would have asked his team to pick whatever opera the think is the best. Which I think will happen next, given how fast his team reacts to critique and the amount of backlash. So, I am sure we'll be treated to raspberry twist and backward flip with Tosca and golden lace by the time GPF rolls around. Then, everyone would criticize Ilia for predictable choices.

The last thing I want to see Ilia skate to, is Tosca

 

[4everchan]

OT, who is the skater pictured in your avatar?

Conrad Orzel. My first GS son. Retired too soon.

 

[TontoK]

Artistry does not have an absolute definition. I loathe acid metal rock and almost all rap music, K-Pop, all forms of hip-hop dancing, bagpipes in almost every instance, abstract paintings, and circus trapeze acts. That doesn't mean they aren't artistic endeavors. It just means they're not for me.

When watching skating, I look for authenticity. It may not suit my eye, but I'm generally fine if it's true to the skater.

I'm deliberately not giving Ilia's free skate a second viewing here. I don't want to cement my initial negative impression, when I know he'll be making improvements. I walk away from this experience thinking this is not an Olympic caliber program, but I'm willing to have my mind changed. And you know what? If those voiceovers are essential to his vision, then he should keep them, and my opinions be damned. I'd rather him be true to himself than skate inauthentically to please me.

Perusing online content, my reaction is far from universal. Quite a few fans liked it. Different strokes.

 

[Mathman]

Still

And I must admit...I never really forgave Kwan after that. She got the silver in the end, which she did NOT deserve imo (because of that disastrous short)...and I was bitter...

Well, those were the times. All I can do is laugh about it now

I hope we re not boring everyone with this off topic excursion, but I think that this phenomenon -- propping up yjre stars of the sport in the short program -- was actually a built-in feature if the 6.0 scoring system. Sarah Hughes also benefitted from it at the 2002 Olympics. I do not, however, put the blame on favoritism or ISU politics.

I think the motivation rather was that the ISU did not want to steal their own thunder by knocking out the skaters that everyone wanted to see go at it in the LP. No one would bother to watch the LP if the most popular and accomplished performers had already been eliminated from medal consideration.