Replay Lounge 2025 GP Finlandia Trophy

[Miya88]

This is not true. Yes, the outliers are discarded. But this is exactly how it does matter. If some judges give on purpose very low scores, and they were judging other very highly, the average scores are shifted up or down. This is exactly how, for instance, a team can place a few tenths ahead in the rhythm dance, just like it happened here. 5 judges out of 9 placed Piper and Paul in first place for the RD...yet, FBC outscored them. It does matter. Every score matters, even the ones that get thrown away.

it wouldnt change anything if french judge gave 9,00 instead of 8,75

they got very nice score here 122.55 , I dont get you point , you behaving like they were underscored by all judges

 

[4everchan]

it wouldnt change anything if french judge gave 9,00 instead of 8,75

they got very nice score here 122.55 , I dont get you point , you behaving like they were underscored by all judges

It is easy to change the average score by deliberately underscoring one team and over scoring another.

You can take my word for it or do the maths yourself or look up one of the many examples where it mattered. There's a famous one about that in artistic swimming.

Look up Barcelona 1992 artistic swimming judging scandal which affected Sylvie Fréchette. Here, a judge didn't even want to cheat, she just put down the wrong score and wasn't allowed to change it.

It mattered enough for Sylvie to lose gold. After investigation, she was awarded a gold medal months later but her Olympic moment was stolen away from her. Here, the judge didn't cheat. The referee though refused to that judge a change of score... If it meant nothing why not allow the change of score? It meant everything because the ref was American and the scoring incident gave the American girl who had never beaten the Canadian before, the gold medal.

There is a thread on here where examples were given about how outliers can affect the total scores, even once they are thrown out.

The math is simple. A judge low-balls a team and props their team up. By becoming outliers but of opposite sides of the scoring, it often shifts the average scores because judges who were being more equitable to all skaters but naturally lower or higher on the spectrum have their scores kept instead of thrown out, thanks to the manipulation of the "cheating" judge.

 

[reneerose]

A quick observation. Amber talked about the ice being soft...I noticed in the free skate Denis fell on what I think is a routine jump for him so like I think there was something about the ice...maybe...? I thought they would resurface between the two groups of men and ladies in their frees...they don't do that? I don't watch often, so not sure how often they do resurface at the different events...

 

[Miya88]

It is easy to change the average score by deliberately underscoring one team and over scoring another.

You can take my word for it or do the maths yourself or look up one of the many examples where it mattered. There's a famous one about that in artistic swimming.

Look up Barcelona 1992 artistic swimming judging scandal which affected Sylvie Fréchette. Here. A judge didn't even want to cheat, she just put down the wrong score and wasn't allowed to change it.

It mattered enough for Sylvie to lose gold. After investigation, she was awarded a gold medal months later but her Olympic moment was stolen away from her. Here, the judge didn't cheat. The referred though refused to that judge a change of score... If it meant nothing why not allow the change of score? It meant everything because the ref was American and the scoring incident gave the American girl who had never beaten the Canadian before, the gold medal.

There is a thread on here where examples were given about how outliers can affect the total scores, even once they are thrown out.

The math is simple. A judge low-balls a team and props their team up. By becoming outliers but of opposite sides of the scoring, it often shifts the average scores because judges who were being more equitable to all skaters but naturally lower or higher on the spectrum have their scores kept instead of thrown out, thanks to the manipulation of the "cheating" judge.

you re acting like that one judge took away a gold from them.

even her two 9s instead of 8,75 wouldnt change the placement

 

[Blades of Passion]

Mone Chiba has the best Long Program of the season but it makes me sad how much is missing still. She could be magical if there was more emphasis placed on truly expressing the music. Look at Sasha Cohen's R+J at the Olympics and how the program is allowed to breathe and emote midway through: the extension and slow glide forward after the layback, the delicacy of her arms that move as if she is trying to part the clouds, the way she stands at center ice and plucks a flower from the air, her sublime facial expressions. The amount of intimacy and longing and fated tragedy expressed in those moments is what skating NEEDS, and nobody is trying to do this anymore.

It's more than just that section of choreography, there are so many details that aren't as good. Look at Cohen's upward leg kick after her 3S. Chiba also does this in her program after her 3S and it's not as extended and impactful. It's in Chiba's program simply to show some kind of "extra movement", whereas in Cohen's program it's a stunning moment, a cinematic declaration, because of the shape she creates and how it goes with the music AND the overall choreographic concept of the whole program, doing it after the last jump at the end of the program, bringing to mind Juliet suddenly awaking, right before dying.

Similarly, Cohen's spins flow with the music better, the footwork sequence has a more clear shape and purpose, and of course the stunning spiral sequence. Chiba's spiral in her program, during the emotional climax of the music, is a bit clunky getting into the initial position, isn't held for especially long, and has a BENT KNEE. Yet because she's at least doing a spiral in that moment and it's not hideous, we're supposed to feel like something special is happening. In actuality it's merely the baseline of what a decent program should have and is quite far from being masterpiece level. The judging for a long time now has absolutely failed to correctly score the artistic merit of programs, and when you pair that with the horribly flawed rules, it turns programs into artificial collections of random turns/movements that don't add up to anything special, and the skaters are visibly focusing on those things while competing, instead of being IN the performance and caring about how to make it as attractive and emotional as possible.

Chiba's soft, fast glide and overall nice qualities allow her to get through the convoluted footwork sequence more elegantly than most other people, and she's able to create little moments of beauty in the program, but those moments are just glimmers of greatness, rather than actual greatness itself. Yet we cling to those moments and want her to win, because she's producing more of them than anyone else right now. In the current field, she displays the most amount of freedom and radiance. She's the least bogged down by the artifice of what skating has become.

 

[4everchan]

you re acting like that one judge took away a gold from them.

even her two 9s instead of 8,75 wouldnt change the placement

that's not the point I am making. The point I am making is that it is possible to tinker with the scores even with the principle that outliers get thrown out. There is proof of it and history of it.

One cannot call out the officials accusing them of just keeping low levels to prop Chock and Bates up and then not call some other officials who did the same to prop FBC up in this event.

I am calling out ALL officials who play dirty.. not just selecting to fit my biases

 

[Cindy1983]

Is Finlandia cursed? It’s not that there are falls, it’s that they have so many freak falls. What’s going on at Finlandia?

 

[Jeanie19]

Is Finlandia cursed? It’s not that there are falls, it’s that they have so many freak falls. What’s going on at Finlandia?

I don't know. But Deniss had 3 falls, one was 3A, so that can happen. He had a freak fall while skating, and a fall on the lutz. I don't think he has ever fallen on the 3lutz,. And poor Rino. No words for her falls, so incredibly sad.

 

[GGFan]

I think Sasha Cohen would have stood out in any era she skated in. Missing Sasha Cohen and her incomparable positions says nothing about the general quality of skating today. No one else was giving Sasha Cohen even in Sasha Cohen's era.

Anyway, I went back to watch the men and it was disappointing overall. Loved the first half of Yuma's free and then things got wonky. I hope that he'll get the second half together at the GPF. Adam was so messy. I usually overlook at lot for him because of his commitment to the program but that was really in an out until the end today. I prefer his short program.

Kudos to Stephen for his consistency this season. I just want him to get into his programs more. He has potential in terms of posture and movement--I hope he works on that in the next quad. Roman had a lot of good moments and I wish he were rewarded even more for his spins, for example. Canadian Nationals should be fun this year.

Glad that Jason has a break now to get all the way back up to speed for Nationals. Once that program is clean it will have a lot of emotional impact. Sota was up and down but he was presenting more than I'm used to. That program works well for him. Matteo gave me some hope today. Praying he can pull off a miracle and get to the Olympics.

 

[reneerose]

I LOVE Yuma's program and the music...I just wonder when he makes the little slipups in competitions... is it because he's stressed, pressured, or can't focus? I know only HE knows, but whatever it is, I just want it to be clean at the Olympics. It would be so great to have a clean skate there and do his best! (Who cares about Malinin and his tech score).

BTW, was anyone watching when they talked to Yuma at the end before the men's final medals ceremony? He picked up the mic right after the interview ended and I didn't hear what said? Did he say somebody lost? It was hard to hear....

 

[dorispulaski]

Is Finlandia cursed? It’s not that there are falls, it’s that they have so many freak falls. What’s going on at Finlandia?

I heard some complaints about ice quality.

 

[Mathman]

5 judges out of 9 placed Piper and Paul in first place for the RD...yet, FBC outscored them.

See? That couldn't happen under 6.0. If 5 out of 9 judges gave you first place ordinals, you automatically won the segment no matter what.

 

[4everchan]

See? That couldn't happen under 6.0. If 5 out of 9 judges gave you first place ordinals, you automatically won the segment no matter what.

the funniest part of all this is that when I wrote this, I thought you would say exactly that

 

[museksk8r]

Piper's twizzles had the following 4 errors that led to a level base - these are nitpicky but are discernable if you know what you're looking for.
1. In the first twizzle her arm drops below her shoulder which is the loss of a feature.
2. In the second twizzle the rotation is checked, and her arms drop from the out in front in feature which is the loss of 2 levels.
3. In the third twizzle there is another check of rotation which negates that feature.
I didn't get all of these by myself, and have to give credit to Tony & Thomas the Skating Session for putting the slow motion video in their video from the rhythm dance to explain the call.

Tony and Thomas also pointed out that every other team’s twizzle sequences should have been as heavily scrutinized and nitpicked as G/P, but they were not. If the panel is going to be this strict with one team, then they need to be consistent and strictly judge the twizzles of all teams.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think Sasha Cohen would have stood out in any era she skated in. Missing Sasha Cohen and her incomparable positions says nothing about the general quality of skating today. No one else was giving Sasha Cohen even in Sasha Cohen's era.

That's not true Ellen. There are tons of skaters in the 90's and 00's who were doing more memorable programs than what we get these days. To begin with, Michelle Kwan, who was usually better than Cohen and put out masterpiece after masterpiece after masterpiece and routinely moved people to tears with the emotion and sophistication of her performances. Then look at the "new age" skaters of the time, Mao Asada and Yuna Kim. Nobody these days comes close to the impact they had with some of their programs. But even look at lower ranked skaters like Elene Gedevanishvili - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGDLO23nn2I - this program displays more musicality and attention to presentation than what anyone else is doing right now. Skating programs simply don't have the personality and naturalism that used to be there. Sasha Cohen would never be "Sasha Cohen" if she came up in the current era, because she wouldn't have cared as much about refining her positions, holding her spirals, trying to maintain a good body line and exciting the audience or fulfilling a creative concept.

 

[skylark]

I like quality. There are different ways to achieve quality though, not just the type that Efimova is showing. She's special... but it's certainly not the only way that quality should be rewarded. I still don't even how Mitrofanov looks like because I have never noticed him. Efimova would be a star in solo dance. She's beautiful to watch. Unfortunately, she's skating in pairs and her partner's presence or lack of thereof is an issue for me.

Of course there are different ways to achieve quality. I was comparing Alisa & Misha's skate directly with Trennt and Lia's, but many other examples would have worked. And taste differs, if something's an issue for you, good for you for spending your time elsewhere. You're missing a lot, but that's my opinion and my taste.

 

[Arriba627]

I enjoyed Rino Matsuike's ethereal skates and was happy to see her make the podium. I loved that deep circular outside edge Mark kept swooning over! Other standouts for me were the Browns Godfather FD and Zingas and Kolesnik's Romeo and Juliet. Interesting that Vadym has a master’s degree in sports education and sports psychology! Happy to see 2 of our pairs on the podium.

 

[TT_Fin]

This quote from Amber Glen was an interesting insight.

Glenn felt the ice was “soft” compared to “hard and slippery.”

“So, you slide a lot more,” she explained. “Whereas a lot of us are used to harder ice because we share with hockey skaters and all that. So, it’s a little harder to get up in the air. Especially on picks, jumps are a lot harder. Edge jumps are fine..."

It i interesting Amber says they train at home in hockey arenas. Helsinki ice hall is a hockey arena. There have been played hockey worlds on that arena. But they may have made it different for fs. Finnish skaters, many of them, often say when they compete in South Europe that the ice is soft, they are used to harder ice.

 

[skylark]

So, I was re-watching some of the free skates. On the second viewing, it was so interesting to see the marvelous way Lia Periera kept her calm and seemed quietly encouraging to Trennt Michaud all through their free skate. Nothing overt, like talking to him (like some would) or big smiles or whatever. I didn't notice this when watching the program in real time, because I was so surprised at the errors.

Lia showed such character throughout. And I'm sure that Trennt supports her as well when things happen they're not pleased with. But I wanted to mention this here.

I re-watched Alisa Efimova and Micha Mitrofanov's free skate a few times. They have such a beautiful classical style, emotional presence, and musical sensitivity and resonance. Alisa's previous partners have said that even then, years ago, she landed the jumps in practice. So it was really lovely to see her land the jumps in this free skate. Mark said they had changed their entrance to at least one of their jumps, so maybe that helped them in some way to turn a corner. Hopefully this experience grounds her in more confidence that she can land them.

A pair I always enjoy is Rebecca Ghirardi and Fillipo A. They have such character when they skate, and they can embody any type of music or story. I want to say they have a lovely, subtle bounce in everything they do. They are so entertaining and enjoyable to watch.

I enjoyed all of the Free Dances. Every one of them showed something very special ... Johnny's remark again glided through my head: the Free Dance is where Ice Dancers are able to be creative and Find Their Voice.

Notable to me were Oona and Gage Brown --their Godfather skate is perfect for their dramatic style; the Finnish dancers Yuko and (?) ... I was just wowed by them; Emilea and Vadym -- so vital, so vibrant, and just amazing!!! and Olivia and Tim ... I love Dune 2.

 

[skylark]

I like quality. There are different ways to achieve quality though, not just the type that Efimova is showing. She's special... but it's certainly not the only way that quality should be rewarded. I still don't even how Mitrofanov looks like because I have never noticed him. Efimova would be a star in solo dance. She's beautiful to watch. Unfortunately, she's skating in pairs and her partner's presence or lack of thereof is an issue for me.

My brain wouldn't let me sleep until I came back to say this: I dearly hope Alisa would never switch from pairs, because we would lose her absolutely gorgeous lift positions and throw landings. I don't thing she would anyway. And I think Misha is just an excellent pairs partner. Not showy, but this great presence and excellent pairs elements. The way he throws Alisa, for instance, matters.