Asada v. Tuktamysheva: 2015-16

[inskate]

I think Mao should change the 3Lz to 3S. Her 3S is a thing of beauty and would definitely garner her high GOEs.

I don't think she'll do it. Mao's initial plan for CoC was 3A, 3F-2L, 3L or 3A, 3F-3T, 3L (if her condition was good). However, she decided to switch to 3A, 3F-3L, 3Lz because a) that was her long-time goal since she started reworking her jumps, and b) she needs to keep on putting 3Lz in her competitive programs to make it stable. She said she already feels comfortable about it in practice, but it might take a couple of competitions more before her brain stops defaulting to the older technique while jumping within the actual program. The same thing happened when she was reworking her other jumps.

Here's her 3Lz in practice at CoC: http://i.imgur.com/KDfvsqu.gif
It's been steadily improving since the off-season, so here's hoping it gets even better by Nationals/Worlds.

 

[Franklin99]

I don't think she'll do it. Mao's initial plan for CoC was 3A, 3F-2L, 3L or 3A, 3F-3T, 3L (if her condition was good). However, she decided to switch to 3A, 3F-3L, 3Lz because a) that was her long-time goal since she started reworking her jumps, and b) she needs to keep on putting 3Lz in her competitive programs to make it stable. She said she already feels comfortable about it in practice, but it might take a couple of competitions more before her brain stops defaulting to the older technique while jumping within the actual program. The same thing happened when she was reworking her other jumps.

Here's her 3Lz in practice at CoC: http://i.imgur.com/KDfvsqu.gif
It's been steadily improving since the off-season, so here's hoping it gets even better by Nationals/Worlds.

She's definitely improved her edge work going into her 3Lz. Bravo to her for believing in herself and not giving. I can't wait to see her do this quality lutz in future competitions.

 

[Tutto]

I'm musing about this so I might be talking rubbish (I'm sure I'll be set right ), but wouldn't there be a case for the triple axel being worth more in points for the women than the men as it is a rarer and more difficult jump for them?

There is today's interview with Lakernik (ISU tech committee chairman):
http://fsrussia.ru/intervyu/1409-al...ost-v-figurnom-katanii-ogranichit-nelzya.html

He was asked this very question. His reply is basically, no, it is not going to be reviewed in a near future anyway. The system is set fairly as it is. instead it should be looked into reasons why 3A is so difficult for ladies. One of the reasons is that too many ladies do not have a good 2A to start with so naturally they can't do 3A

 

[moriel]

Yup, i kinda agree there is no need to reward the elements differently just because.
Less ladies do 3A, but also less ladies do Quads, but then also ladies PCs factor is lower - so it is kinda balanced

 

[FlattFan]

I think that's partially handled in PCS. Women who do the 3A can get +2 without any difficult entry or exit, whereas the more common jumps have to be exceptionally well executed with the transitional content to earn +2 (in most cases).

The nature of the 3A requires a lot of speed, and a lot of height, and if not landed correct, will result in a fall. This is why even without difficult entry or exit, successful 3A should get good GOE.

Which other common jumps have higher height than 3A normally? It's not like you do a 3A and they will hand you +2 just like that.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think that's partially handled in PCS. Women who do the 3A can get +2 without any difficult entry or exit, whereas the more common jumps have to be exceptionally well executed with the transitional content to earn +2 (in most cases).

Well, those are just two GOE criteria... a 3A with good flow/effortlessness/height(which is a necessity)/distance/matched to the music, etc. will get +2. Although I used to love Mao's brackets entry in the past into her 3A. Liza on the other hand totally stalks her 3A, going almost a full circle around the ice (but the jump itself is amazing).

 

[David21]

Again, longevity/the point in the career matters. If we were to consider Mao at her jumping peak -- mid-late 2000's -- Mao as an example, I'd say she was the better jumper (and to me, Mao's flutz doesn't tip the scales in Liza's favour). Currently speaking, Liza has a better triple axel but isn't consistent with it as Mao is, and while Mao URs her 3-3, it's much harder than Liza's (which itself isn't very consistent thus far this season either).

The problem with Mao is that she not only underrotates her 3-3s. She ur's her other triple very often as well. Even her double loops that she does in combinations are almost always underrotated.

Well, those are just two GOE criteria... a 3A with good flow/effortlessness/height(which is a necessity)/distance/matched to the music, etc. will get +2. Although I used to love Mao's brackets entry in the past into her 3A. Liza on the other hand totally stalks her 3A, going almost a full circle around the ice (but the jump itself is amazing).

Mao's technique on her triple axel is not very pretty either with her upper body bending foreward on the take-off. The jump is also lacking distance and is almost always underroated.

 

[MaxSwagg]

The problem with Mao is that she not only underrotates her 3-3s. She ur's her other triple very often as well. Even her double loops that she does in combinations are almost always underrotated.



Mao's technique on her triple axel is not very pretty either with her upper body bending foreward on the take-off. The jump is also lacking distance and is almost always underroated.

It still looks better than Liza's. 5 seconds before she pretty much says "Everyone stop! I'm getting ready to do a 3A." Mao's is actually integrated into the program. Of course, in order for Liza's to be integrated into a program she'd first have to have a program.

 

[andyjo24]

I've always thought that Mao's triple axel looks more elegant than Liza's but tends to be a little bit iffy in terms of rotation. Mao does seem to have improved the entry, especially compared to the 2013-2014 GP, where her Rach 2 program was pretty much setting up for the two triple axels in the first minute.

Liza's triple axel is clean and fully rotated, but it is not the most elegant and the set-up for it is too obvious.

 

[gotoschool]

It still looks better than Liza's. 5 seconds before she pretty much says "Everyone stop! I'm getting ready to do a 3A." Mao's is actually integrated into the program. Of course, in order for Liza's to be integrated into a program she'd first have to have a program.

Here is what Kurt Browning said about Mao's triple axel in Madame Butterfly at Cup of China, "I'm always excited to see a triple axel in the ladies event and to have it be displayed in that beautiful music in her beautiful costume with her elegant skating. It was seamlessly put into the program."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhOJXoEsoj4 at 5:20

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

It still looks better than Liza's. 5 seconds before she pretty much says "Everyone stop! I'm getting ready to do a 3A." Mao's is actually integrated into the program. Of course, in order for Liza's to be integrated into a program she'd first have to have a program.

I like Mao's 3a a lot but let's be real. Mao starts stalking that thing the second she takes the ice and before the music even starts. It is the most telegraphed jump I can think of.

 

[TheCzar]

Oh please. If we are being real here, the all have to telegraph for a 3A. We are not talking about Yuzuru Hanyu here. The difference is that at the very least, Mao and her telegraphing takes far less time than Tuk at this point in time. In fact, less so than in 2010 when she spend the whole first minute telegraphing for two 3As.

And for David- this is not the 2011-12 season. When did you ever see Mao underrotate a triple salchow, flip and loop more than once in her protocols from 2013? In fact even her lutz, despite the edge call is almost always rotated.

 

[AsadaFanBoy]

Liza's axel might be fully rotated but she hasn't done a single clean 3A this season. Or a single clean program.

Which so far pretty much only Medvedeva, Hongo, and Ashley have done, really.

Hopefully Tuktamysheva and Asada can put out great skates this season.

 

[Ophelia]

^The season just started, so I don't see why the teeth gnashing over Liza's axel. Heck, Mao was hot and cold on the triple axel for many years. Liza's has only had 1 season with it.

 

[David21]

And for David- this is not the 2011-12 season. When did you ever see Mao underrotate a triple salchow, flip and loop more than once in her protocols from 2013? In fact even her lutz, despite the edge call is almost always rotated.

I am talking about the present not some years like 2011 or 2013. I've seen her SP from Cup of China last week and her flip, loop and (f)lutz were all underrotated.

 

[hurrah]

I am talking about the present not some years like 2011 or 2013. I've seen her SP from Cup of China last week and her flip, loop and (f)lutz were all underrotated.

.

It's so weird now for me to say I'm really relieved Mao has improved but hasn't so drastically improved that she suddenly got rid of her under-rotation and flutz issue. Her triple-axel was the best ever, though. No under-rotation what-so-ever. And I'm actually expecting Mao to get rid of her under-rotation/flutz soon because she's a better skater than before...

Well, Mao's regularly tested, right? And I can see that her jump improvements are based on technical improvements. Plus, 26-7 is actually the age at which an athlete's body mature to their highest strength, so, I'm trusting everything is fine.

 

[minze]

I like Mao's 3a a lot but let's be real. Mao starts stalking that thing the second she takes the ice and before the music even starts. It is the most telegraphed jump I can think of.

more telegraphed than Liza's 3a really?

 

[minze]

^The season just started, so I don't see why the teeth gnashing over Liza's axel. Heck, Mao was hot and cold on the triple axel for many years. Liza's has only had 1 season with it.

And was already declared by some the queen of 3a. As opposed to someone who has been doing it since she was a junior. You say Mao was hot and cold, well we are not talking about a 3t or 3S. We are talking about a 3a even some man don't have a reliable 3a.

If it wasn't for Mao continuing to do the jump, do you think Liza will even think about doing the jump?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

more telegraphed than Liza's 3a really?

I'm including the warm-up where she comes out and does her set up for the 3a. I was just joking around that she starts telegraphing the jump from that moment and in a way...she kind of is. It's a serious jump though so I don't see it as a problem. Actually telegraphing doesn't bother me at all. I want clean landings more than anything else.

 

[minze]

I'm including the warm-up where she comes out and does her set up for the 3a. I was just joking around that she starts telegraphing the jump from that moment and in a way...she kind of is. It's a serious jump though so I don't see it as a problem. Actually telegraphing doesn't bother me at all. I want clean landings more than anything else.

Oh oh sorry missed the joke. My bad