Can Chan be on the top again?
- Thread starter Lebron
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- Dec 25, 2012
Patrick's Japan Open performance and TEB performances were quite amazing. I didn't like him AT ALL in the years before, but those two instances opened my eyes to how good he can be.
Predicting what will happen with the men is a mine-field though. They are sooo up-and-down. But I think Patrick will be getting golds, maybe not all the time, but often enough to be considered one of the Top men next season.
That said, the WC podiums without him have actually not been to surprising. 2014 Yuzu-Machida-Javi 2015 Javi-Yuzu-Ten
The top ranked skaters, were on top. Yes, they all (including Chan) may have problems with consistency, but they don't let their mistakes ruin the rest of their program.
Javi -1 fall and then the rest was good
Yuzu-a pop, 1 Fall and the rest was good
Ten- Rough SP, but FS was good other than a few landings.
Chan will probably do something like this too, as we've seen in the past.
Then, every now and again, we'll get a completely clean program and be blown away.
Predicting what will happen with the men is a mine-field though. They are sooo up-and-down. But I think Patrick will be getting golds, maybe not all the time, but often enough to be considered one of the Top men next season.
That said, the WC podiums without him have actually not been to surprising. 2014 Yuzu-Machida-Javi 2015 Javi-Yuzu-Ten
The top ranked skaters, were on top. Yes, they all (including Chan) may have problems with consistency, but they don't let their mistakes ruin the rest of their program.
Javi -1 fall and then the rest was good
Yuzu-a pop, 1 Fall and the rest was good
Ten- Rough SP, but FS was good other than a few landings.
Chan will probably do something like this too, as we've seen in the past.
Then, every now and again, we'll get a completely clean program and be blown away.
Interesting point, and now that you raise it, I think I agree. Could it be said that the 6.0 was appropriate while school figures were still part of the competition, so the technical and artistic marks didn't have to speak to the blade-on-ice skills, since those were already evaluated in the figures segment? And then they got rid of the figures, so the evaluation of blade-on-ice skills disappeared from competition. And now the CoP has found a way to evaluate it through SS and transitions and step sequence. Nice.
I am not sure about this really… just a few examples… Sale Pelletier… were going to lose based on rigged judging and they were technically superior but losing in "artistic impression"… this is the scandal the provoke the CoP…
then a few more examples but before i go there..
Chan HAS the base value similar to others… so I am not sure what you are saying… and he is as consistent as the others on top… if not more.
but here are examples of let's say.. why i don't believe Canadian skaters to be at an advantage…
1) Elvis, Kevin Reynolds (even when he would land his jumps) were always penalized with artistic impression or PCs…
2) Nam… is not unfairly held high…. he is one of the only ones with two great skates but didn't get pushed higher because PCs are not yet on par with other skaters… if your theory was correct, he would be on the podiumespecially since ahead of him, we have skaters for federations, if you are correct that are not being favoured (Spain, Kaz, Japan )…
3) W/P… if your theory holds true, they would be twice world champions alread
4) D/R: yes they won this year… yes some russian teams IN THE PAST were better than them… but here is something… D/R have pushed the technical content as they had no choice… to win, they needed to improve their scores and judges, rightfully or not, were never favouring them with PCs… so they have upgraded their technical content every year…. that way, there's no arguing… they are so in tune with the CoP and work it as much as they can on the TES part since they know that PCS will never be higher than some other teams…
So… in other words, your accusation about federation is not only extremely dangerous and disrespectful to the ISU and its national federations but it is not true.
S/P were up against a Russian team so it doesn't really count as an example. Kevin Reynolds never had the consistency to be awarded high marks and he was known for URing his jumps so judges are more harsh when it comes to dinging his jumps. I find that no matter where you are from, if you are known for URing jumps, the judges tend to not give you the benefit of the doubt (Mao Asada is another that comes to mind). Nam still lacks a lot of refinement and is new to the scene so the judges won't pile on the PCS marks so fast early in his career. Especially since his jumps are so small and he crawls across the ice. The French federation is not so weak either so you shouldn't underestimate them. They have that dingdong Didier Gailhauguet as their president after all.
Skaters from small unknown countries are at a disadvantage compared to skaters from a big relevant federation with a long history in figure skating who can afford better coaches, better training grounds, better politicking and can afford to send them to more competitions. A good combination of these can really up someone's reputation, undeserved or not. For example, Gracie's stock went up after she went to Frank Carroll, and she skated a clean LP in the Team Event at the Olympics but her skate with a fall in the individual event got 7 points more after Frank Carroll complained. You think if some unknown coach from some small federation complained about their skaters marks would the same happen? The USA fed have way more influence than a small country. The ISU has been a shady organization for a long time and national feds only feed into it because they want to win.
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- Jan 12, 2014
I just rewatched this SP at TEB. And it made me wonder why there's no advantage for him (or anyone) doing a 4T+3T combo?
What I meant is, ignoring 10% bonus, a 4T+3T / 3A / 3Z have the same base value as 4T / 3A / 3Z+3T. One would think a quad-triple combo is harder than a triple-triple combo, and gets rewarded accordingly. But since Yuzu has a smarter layout, he gets the TES advantage. Yes, it's only 1.26 BV difference, but there's really no point in doing a 4-3 in the SP except for the WOW factor. (or if your other solo jump is also a quad, ala Kovtun)
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2012
in respect to the question while I think the judges may have generously favoured Javi, Ten and Hanyu; one cannot count Chan out despite his technical issues. In fairness his transitions and skating skills are unparallelled. Performance and choreo arguably are tops with Hanyu. Javi has fun. But he may need another triple axel or quad As for the snideness about Chan skating clean well how many clean performances do we see from anyone. Not Javi, Hanyu or Tens world performance. ONly some 16 year old boy from canada really. Clean skates may e rarer as the technical skills on jumps, spins, footwork and all have become scarey almost.
I don't know if I'm right, so if someone could correct me here, I'd appreciate it. I think this is more a matter of how comfortable they are with the quad. As far as I know, the solo jump in the SP must be out of steps, while the combo doesn't. Jumping out of steps it's harder, so the smart thing there if you're not too sure about the quad, is to put it in the combo where you can prepare it. I've heard it's harder to do a quad out of steps than in combination. Once again, I'm not sure about it, so if someone who's certain could help out here it would be nice.
On Patrick being the top skater, after Sochi, my opinion was:
Carolina would've been dropped for her meltdowns long before she was able to bloom as a performer and find a decent amount of consistency in her mid-to-late twenties. Misha competing for Russia or even China probably wouldn't have the opportunities and experience for him to reach Top 6 in the world--if people are impatient about Jason having no quad at 20, Misha only stabilizing a triple axel at 23 is probably too little too late. (The big federations' loss, btw, since he finished ahead of the Russian and Chinese skaters). Denis' inability to get it together until the last event will probably result in him being left off the team before he even gets to Worlds, had he skated for--say--Japan. Javi didn't even make the FS at his first Worlds; at a bigger federation, he'd probably never get another chance, let alone the chance to someday become World Champion.
I'm not denying the advantages of a larger federation. Nor am I dismissing the hard work (not to mention motivation) it took for people like Carolina, Misha, Denis, or Javi, who had to carve their own path. Their dedication to the sport is incredible. Just some food for thought--for late bloomers/inconsistent skaters, a smaller fed has its advantages.
His chances look a little better now. Not because of anything he did, but because Yuzuru just seems so injury-prone. :hopelessness: So perhaps Yuzuru won't dominate the way I thought he would (I still think he's a better bet than Patrick going forward, but not by as much as I originally felt).
Y'know, while large Federations are stronger politically (and can get their skaters better funding), there are some advantages of being from a smaller federation: Think of Carolina Kostner, Misha Ge, Denis Ten, Javier Fernandez, ect. Would they have their success if they skated for Russia/USA/Canada?
Carolina would've been dropped for her meltdowns long before she was able to bloom as a performer and find a decent amount of consistency in her mid-to-late twenties. Misha competing for Russia or even China probably wouldn't have the opportunities and experience for him to reach Top 6 in the world--if people are impatient about Jason having no quad at 20, Misha only stabilizing a triple axel at 23 is probably too little too late. (The big federations' loss, btw, since he finished ahead of the Russian and Chinese skaters). Denis' inability to get it together until the last event will probably result in him being left off the team before he even gets to Worlds, had he skated for--say--Japan. Javi didn't even make the FS at his first Worlds; at a bigger federation, he'd probably never get another chance, let alone the chance to someday become World Champion.
I'm not denying the advantages of a larger federation. Nor am I dismissing the hard work (not to mention motivation) it took for people like Carolina, Misha, Denis, or Javi, who had to carve their own path. Their dedication to the sport is incredible.
Just some food for thought--for late bloomers/inconsistent skaters, a smaller fed has its advantages.
Yes, but those skaters do have at least a real coach, which I think that Chan lacks.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
Maybe real coaches who couldn't bring real results like a fake coach should be fired?
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
Another advantage to doing an opening 4T+3T combo is that in case the quad doesn't go according to plan, you can still attempt the 3T in combination with your "solo" jump (in Chan's case, the 3Z). Also, if you have a solo quad, it must be preceded by steps (not that the judges call out top-tier skaters who neglect to include those). Sometimes 4-3 results in slightly higher PCS in terms of Performance/Execution -- I mean it's essentially the hardest element performed (a skater could do 4-3-3, but that hardly makes sense under CoP).
But yes, a 4-3 should get rewarded more than a 3-3.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
Oh, I agree. A skater who falls 5 times over the course of a competition (certainly in one program) should be off the podium, whether Yuzuru, Chan, whoever. The thing is, Hanyu's capable of executing a clean FS (2014 Worlds) with the content he plans. I think most of the guys are able to execute programs with their planned content (otherwise it's senseless to compete content that you can't execute). I think many recognize that doing an extra quad that they can't execute isn't worth it if doing a clean 3Z gets more points. But all skaters should recognize that in order to win, they should up their technical game.
A clean skate with low difficulty can still get you a top 5, but to crack the podium, skaters should be technically brilliant (or in the case of skaters like P&T, artistically superior).
Everyone wants to see clean programs. But in the ladies for example, if all the girls just did 3-2 combinations, it wouldn't be the most exciting would it. And funny enough, many would do better if they did a clean 3-2 instead of going for a 3-3 that gets < (e.g. Wagner).
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- Jan 15, 2012
Thanks. I think this link requires a logon to dropbox? Found another link on youkou. http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODAxODM2Nzc2_type_99.html?f=440254952
Answer to thread question: YES to top three placing.
Looking forward to Chiddy's return to competition coming season. Not unexpectedly, bickering has already started.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
I can't think of anyone who actually does a quad out of steps, or at least not out of any remotely difficult ones. For whatever reason the judges are giving skaters a pass on this. They shouldn't.
4-3 combos are not rewarded more because in IJS everything is the sum of its parts, and the possibility that some things are more difficult or impressive than their individual components simply isn't recognized. The system isn't set up for it.
So it's both easier and better for scoring purposes to do a quad out of "steps" and a 3-3 with the second half bonus. That's what the system currently rewards. Crack down on the lack of steps leading into solo jumps or do away with the second half SP bonus (or give it only for specific elements) and that might change.
