Can Chan be on the top again?

[satine]

Am I the only one on both Team Patrick & Team Yuzuru?

Also Team Javier & Team Denis, but honestly to slightly lesser extents.

 

[MaxSwagg]

What's more powerful, Hanyuflation or inflation? Anywho, I think they're both great but Yuzuru just does it for me (though I did have a romantic dream with Patrick that one time ).

 

[Violet Bliss]

Depends on what you consider consistent. Does consistent to you means constantly clean programs? Then there's nobody. Does it mean being on the podium constantly? Then Fernandez medaled on every single competition he was at this season and nothing below silver. Does it mean not melting down? Then there are a few more candidates in there. The thing is that these guys have 2 or 3 quads AND 2x3A, aside from a smart layout with the combos to get the extra 10%. So the BV alone of those elements make up for a fall. Patrick only has one 3A when he can do another one just fine. The lack of a 3A puts him behind in the technicals, slightly, but we saw it at Worlds, the difference in points was small. So he's got two choices from my POV. First, rise his BV and sacrifice some mistakes, in that case he'll be on the same path that Hanyu, Fernandez and Ten are right now. Or second, work for a clean program with the same level he had last season and get as much as he can from GOEs and PCS, which is kind of what Jason Brown is doing (only with no quads). IMO, having the clean skate is harder so I'd think he would go for stepping up on BV, but that's just me.

I am going with clean performances here since that is what Chan's critics points at. There have been no Men more consistent than Chan at winning in recent history.

I believe he will up his BV since he knows well the importance and the challenges he will face. His development has been more systematic than most, with yearly and quadrennial goals. After the Vancouver Olympics, he got the quads and World titles. Then he focused on artistry. He decided the Olympic year was not the time to take risks but to put his best together though at the end his mental fortitude failed him. Next season, it is probable that he may add 4S to his competitive programs since he has had it in practice.

It shouldn't be too hard for Chan to get into the competitive mindset. Firstly it is natural to him. Secondly, he's mentally prepared since he was just taking a year off and is ready to return. It is not a case of returning from retirement or indecision. While he has been performing in shows, he has also been practicing his quads. I don't think he is rusty.

As well, if the year off has given him new insights and a relaxed attitude for his performance, he just may be even more formidable while giving more consistently outstanding performances. We just have to wait and see.

I don't think any of the top Men would say no to this thread's question, and they will prepare themselves to meet the challenge.

Eta: Chan also places importance on health and staying injury free. Another winning factor. All in all, he cannot be written off as a top contender even if smooth sailing to the top is not a certainty.

 

[4everchan]

nope … love them both despite preferring chan, if yuzu skates better I am just as thrilled …

Am I the only one on both Team Patrick & Team Yuzuru?

Also Team Javier & Team Denis, but honestly to slightly lesser extents.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Am I the only one on both Team Patrick & Team Yuzuru?

Also Team Javier & Team Denis, but honestly to slightly lesser extents.

I'm mainly on team Yuzuru and Team Javier And Team Yuzuvier, but I'm also to a lesser extent on Team Patrick

 

[Krunchii]

Am I the only one on both Team Patrick & Team Yuzuru?

Also Team Javier & Team Denis, but honestly to slightly lesser extents.

I like both, both are different and good in their own ways

 

[Flaya]

4everchan.

Thank you for your message, I agree with most but disagree with some of your points. I am sorry if I offended anyone, there is always this thin line between not liking the skating and personal attacks.

In my case, it is clearly the first one. If Chan were able to skate clean programs, I would be the first one to adore him. I am not on Yuzuru's bandwagon for this reason as well but generally tend to prefer his skating including the technical elements.

Now, I believe there is a need to penalize falls in a much tougher way than it is currently the case. By this, it does not mean that I believe someone like Jason Brown should have won the 2015 World Championships. No, that simply implies that right now there is an imbalance and skaters can get away with too much without leaving any lasting impression once we finish watching their skates.

What I would prefer would be higher deductions that would discourage figure skaters from attempting jumps they are not completely at ease with. I would also prefer a system that gets right of the cognitive bias when it comes to artistry. No one should be given extra points because of their federation. Canada is not the only country benefiting from it as the USA and Russia also do.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

When is the last time Chan skated anything cleanly?

Vancouver games, failure... given the 5th place coz the games were in Vancouver.
London WC failure... given the 1st place coz the WC was in Canada.
Sochi games...failure given the 2nd place based on his federation.

If Chan was representing, as example, Taiwan... it would have been a different story.
And of course, just like in the case of other big federations...his "advantage" are the PCS scores as technically he is not that strong.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/SEG002.HTM

At least Hanyu is entertaining but I give you one thing, I also want a clean skate from someone winning the Worlds/Olympics in men, falls should be more penalized than they currently are.

Ahem. Chan is one of the only skaters in the past quadrennial to incorporate a quad in both programs and skate cleanly (SP+FS) with all planned content -- take a look at TEB 2013 (you know, the current world record for total score ).

Plu did it at Euros 2012 (albeit with just one quad in his FS). Murakami at NHK (who didn't have a quad-triple, or even a 3-3, and no 3rd combo), Nguyen at 2015 Worlds (who doesn't have an SP quad), and Machida at the last Worlds (his 3L turnout notwithstanding -- he still should've won) have come close. And Ten was close to a clean competition at 2013 Worlds, except he turned a 3F+3T into a 2F+2T, and close to a clean competition at 4CC 2015 save for some minor turnouts in his FS.

Even Hanyu and Fernandez have never skated a clean SP&LP in the same competition. Though, as mentioned, it is exceedingly difficult to execute a clean competition in men's figure skating these days.

But yeah, to answer your question his last clean competition was TEB 2013 -- less than a year and a half ago.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra2013/gpfra2013_Men_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra2013/gpfra2013_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
That also happens to be the only time a male figure skater has gotten +1/+2/+3 from every individual judge for every element in both SP & FS.

FYI, his most recent skate was also a clean one, albeit just one quad and one axel - his FS at the Japan Open in October 2014 (just 6 months ago): http://www.jsfresults.com/InterNational/2014-2015/jo/data0105.pdf arty: (I think the video of it has been taken down though)
It's noteworthy too that with just one 4T attempt, and also no -3S series, and his PCS wasn't even 91 points (with a clean FS) either.... yet, he still managed a whopping 178 points (which would have been 3rd in the FS at these Worlds).

Also, it's incredibly laughable that you're saying "technically he is not that strong", when he was the first male skater to break 100 points TES in the freeskate.

 

[Icey]

I wonder if he will be able to find it in himself to return. If he does, probably mixed results, but always near the top .

 

[beki]

I am actually coming around to enjoying greater difficulty rather than clean programs. I'm not sure it's possible for the scoring system to encourage both at the same time.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I am actually coming around to enjoying greater difficulty rather than clean programs. I'm not sure it's possible for the scoring system to encourage both at the same time.

It's possible but rare. Personally I would rather see guys trying to up the ante (and mess up) than everyone playing it safe ... competitions would then become technical stalemates with everyone going clean, and results then come down to primarily artistry instead of athleticism.

I want all skaters to skate cleanly, but winners shouldn't be winning with jump content that's been around for a decade.

To me, it's exciting when a skater plans incredibly demanding content and THEN still wins, and the whole package comes together.

A clean program with run-of-the-mill difficulty is still something to applaud... but a clean program with difficult content is something one can marvel at.

 

[4everchan]

4everchan.

Thank you for your message, I agree with most but disagree with some of your points. I am sorry if I offended anyone, there is always this thin line between not liking the skating and personal attacks.

In my case, it is clearly the first one. If Chan were able to skate clean programs, I would be the first one to adore him. I am not on Yuzuru's bandwagon for this reason as well but generally tend to prefer his skating including the technical elements.

Now, I believe there is a need to penalize falls in a much tougher way than it is currently the case. By this, it does not mean that I believe someone like Jason Brown should have won the 2015 World Championships. No, that simply implies that right now there is an imbalance and skaters can get away with too much without leaving any lasting impression once we finish watching their skates.

What I would prefer would be higher deductions that would discourage figure skaters from attempting jumps they are not completely at ease with. I would also prefer a system that gets right of the cognitive bias when it comes to artistry. No one should be given extra points because of their federation. Canada is not the only country benefiting from it as the USA and Russia also do.

I am not sure about this really… just a few examples… Sale Pelletier… were going to lose based on rigged judging and they were technically superior but losing in "artistic impression"… this is the scandal the provoke the CoP…

then a few more examples but before i go there..
Chan HAS the base value similar to others… so I am not sure what you are saying… and he is as consistent as the others on top… if not more.

but here are examples of let's say.. why i don't believe Canadian skaters to be at an advantage…

1) Elvis, Kevin Reynolds (even when he would land his jumps) were always penalized with artistic impression or PCs…
2) Nam… is not unfairly held high…. he is one of the only ones with two great skates but didn't get pushed higher because PCs are not yet on par with other skaters… if your theory was correct, he would be on the podium especially since ahead of him, we have skaters for federations, if you are correct that are not being favoured (Spain, Kazhastan, Japan… )…
3) W/P… if your theory holds true, they would be twice world champions alread
4) D/R: yes they won this year… yes some russian teams IN THE PAST were better than them… but here is something… D/R have pushed the technical content as they had no choice… to win, they needed to improve their scores and judges, rightfully or not, were never favouring them with PCs… so they have upgraded their technical content every year…. that way, there's no arguing… they are so in tune with the CoP and work it as much as they can on the TES part since they know that PCS will never be higher than some other teams…

So… in other words, your accusation about federation is not only extremely dangerous and disrespectful to the ISU and its national federations but it is not true.

 

[4everchan]

Claps claps claps

ahem. Chan is one of the only skaters in the past quadrennial to incorporate a quad in both programs and skate cleanly (sp+fs) with all planned content -- take a look at teb 2013 (you know, the current world record for total score ).

Plu did it at euros 2012 (albeit with just one quad in his fs). Murakami at nhk (who didn't have a quad-triple, or even a 3-3, and no 3rd combo), nguyen at 2015 worlds (who doesn't have an sp quad), and machida at the last worlds (his 3l turnout notwithstanding -- he still should've won) have come close. And ten was close to a clean competition at 2013 worlds, except he turned a 3f+3t into a 2f+2t, and close to a clean competition at 4cc 2015 save for some minor turnouts in his fs.

Even hanyu and fernandez have never skated a clean sp&lp in the same competition. Though, as mentioned, it is exceedingly difficult to execute a clean competition in men's figure skating these days.

But yeah, to answer your question his last clean competition was teb 2013 -- less than a year and a half ago.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra2013/gpfra2013_men_sp_scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra2013/gpfra2013_men_fs_scores.pdf
that also happens to be the only time a male figure skater has gotten +1/+2/+3 from every individual judge for every element in both sp & fs.

Fyi, his most recent skate was also a clean one, albeit just one quad and one axel - his fs at the japan open in october 2014 (just 6 months ago): http://www.jsfresults.com/international/2014-2015/jo/data0105.pdf arty: (i think the video of it has been taken down though)
it's noteworthy too that with just one 4t attempt, and also no -3s series, and his pcs wasn't even 91 points (with a clean fs) either.... Yet, he still managed a whopping 178 points (which would have been 3rd in the fs at these worlds).

Also, it's incredibly laughable that you're saying "technically he is not that strong", when he was the first male skater to break 100 points tes in the freeskate.

 

[beki]

It's possible but rare. Personally I would rather see guys trying to up the ante (and mess up) than everyone playing it safe ... competitions would then become technical stalemates with everyone going clean, and results then come down to primarily artistry instead of athleticism.

I want all skaters to skate cleanly, but winners shouldn't be winning with jump content that's been around for a decade.

To me, it's exciting when a skater plans incredibly demanding content and THEN still wins, and the whole package comes together.

A clean program with run-of-the-mill difficulty is still something to applaud... but a clean program with difficult content is something one can marvel at.

 

[rollerblade]

I am actually coming around to enjoying greater difficulty rather than clean programs. I'm not sure it's possible for the scoring system to encourage both at the same time.

I'm conflicted with this. If it's a few smaller mistakes, then I prefer greater difficulty. If it's iffy landings on half the jumps, off-balance on difficult spin positions etc.... then I would left with the impression that "it's a sloppy program", instead of being bedazzled since "it's a difficult program". I hate doubling of jumps though. Unless it's a planned jump or from an absurd entry, I don't want to see 2T or 2S or 2-anything on men's. Ick.

Sloppiness is the main reason I can't get into Javi's skating. It's almost as if he's always too amp'd up and can't calm himself. In WC2015, Yuzu's falls are more relaxed than Javi's messy landings.

 

[sunnystars]

P. Chan - 2014 Japan Open to those who are interested...

If he can give a performance like this next season, I can't see why he can't get the marks.

 

[noskates]

I have to disagree with CanadianSkaterGuy (and realize it's just a difference of opinion) I don't like to see the content made more difficult and then see a sloppy skate. I'm still getting over Hanyu falling FIVE times and taking a silver medal. That's just wrong! I think skating expertise should include clean skates. And if you can't do a jump consistently you shouldn't attempt it in competition. And if you do attempt it and fall on your behind then you should be penalized for falling - not rewarded because you managed to do the rotations. Pretty much any elite skater can rotate.....if they can do a 3A all they need is another half rotation for the quad. I'm not minimizing how difficult that is at all but just saying they can do the rotation. It's the landing that's elusive. I like a complete skater. I don't want to just see jumping beans with mediocre spins, poor transitions and lousy footwork - but get points for landing a quad or two. Skating success has become too dependent on that jump in my opinion. And that's why I've always liked Patrick Chan because to me he's the whole package! He can jump, he can spin, his transitions are beautiful, his footwork is complex and fun to watch. I get cracked on because there are a few skaters I don't care to watch. Yes they can land just about any jump in the book (but don't always skate clean) but they have no style, no performance value (again in my opinion) and just romp from one trick to another.

So I guess figure skating is like anything else - different strokes for different folks. But I really am glad Patrick is coming back to competition. And even if he never tops the podium again he's going to make his fellow skaters work just a little bit harder.

 

[4everchan]

thank you for sharing i hadn't seen it (shame on me) and considering that program came out in the fall, it was already very good!!!! WOW!!! i like his outfit too!!

P. Chan - 2014 Japan Open to those who are interested...

If he can give a performance like this next season, I can't see why he can't get the marks.

 

[Rissa]

He can jump, he can spin, his transitions are beautiful, his footwork is complex and fun to watch. I get cracked on because there are a few skaters I don't care to watch. Yes they can land just about any jump in the book (but don't always skate clean) but they have no style, no performance value (again in my opinion) and just romp from one trick to another.

And he can fall pretty spectacularly and frequently too, just like those other skaters who can jump about any jump under the book but don't always skate clean. And he can fail in being penalized for it too, actually.

That said, never too many contenders for gold, and Patrick will certainly be one of them when he comes back. I hope he gets a second quad, rotates it even if falling on his butt, and stays competitive.

 

[Mathman]

I for one look forward to see what Patrick will do. I regard Patrick as the IJS pioneer who was the first to intuit what the current judging system is all about. Under 6.0 it was, land the jumps (first mark) and look graceful (2nd mark). To me, the current system comprises sort of a throwback valuation; back to the blade-on-ice skills that comprise the soul of the discipline. IMHO only Kurt Browning as a pro can beat Patrick as an ice skater. Toss in a few quads as highlights and Bob's your uncle. :yes: