Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[Li'Kitsu]

What should be their jumps BV for next season programs?
I know Yuzuru should be

sp: 31,16
fp: 79,89

Patrick? Denis? Javi?

The thing about Yuzu Tes score is that aside from the BV itself, he usually has also great GOE on at least all his Axel/Axel combo and all his quad (provided he lands them).

Yuzuru also gets pretty good GOE on his spins, the only man I can think of who gets better GOE is Jason Brown (and maybe Shoma Uno?).

For PChan, given his layout is the same as in the 2013-14 season, it's: SP 29,5; LP 68,07.
And for the other two man, again the BVs for last season...
DTen: SP 29,91; LP 70,69
Javi: SP 29,95; LP 71,43

Patrick might really need at least that 2nd 3A. Yuzuru would beat him in jump GOE by 13,68 points, that's huge!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hanyu technical base in olympic season was 8 points higher than Chan already from start, and if Chan doesn't change anything it will be 13 this season, then I don't know what you mean here

Base doesn't matter if you don't execute it. Chan beat Hanyu at both GP events because Hanyu failed to land the jumps. With how few times Hanyu and Chan have gone clean, there's a lot of potential for back and forth.

Hanyu still has an advantage in terms of base value - after all, he didn't land any clean quads at Worlds last year but still came 2nd (and of course, there was Cup of China's judging).

Also, I don't get why people think Hanyu has such an advantage this year with his 4S - it isn't any more consistent than Chan's 3A. And the new rules cause more deductions on quads too, so a 4S fall is now worth only 1 point more than a 3A fall. Hanyu's advantage comes from his own triple axels in the second half, but both Hanyu and Chan each have a flawed jump in their repertoire (4S & 3A). I'd also say both have a flawed lutz jump too.

 

[Mathman]

...a 4S fall is now worth only 1 point more than a 3A fall.

I don't know why, but that tickled me. Figure skating in modern era. The battle of the 4S falls versus the 3A falls.

 

[Ice Dance]

Javier won with FS score something like 180 ?

Ten won the FS at Worlds. He also had 191 and change at 4CC's. And would have won two World Championships by now using the ordinal system.

I think it's a four-way battle.

 

[Rissa]

IMO, it's in Hanyus hands. Even with all of PChans great qualities, there's only so much you can do against 3 quads + 2 3As, all with amazing quality, 3 out of 5 of them in the second half of the program. If Hanyu nails all of those jumps, he'll be unbeatable. Even with a fall or pop in there he'd still be.

Base doesn't matter if you don't execute it. Chan beat Hanyu at both GP events because Hanyu failed to land the jumps. With how few times Hanyu and Chan have gone clean, there's a lot of potential for back and forth.

I have to agree with CSG here. Hanyu's my favorite by far but someone mentioned it before: his new layout is insane, and not necessarily in a good way. So insane in fact that it may well be beyond Hanyu's ability to execute and pushing the technical envelope might be his undoing (at least this season). So what can Patrick do against Hanyu's 3 quads and 2x3A? He can try to rely on his superior PCSs and skate cleanly because Hanyu most likely won't.

 

[4everchan]

ditto

My love for Patrick and his gorgeous posture and lines is not easily matched by most skaters. With Plushy returning, I can't imagine how I'll contain myself when they skate. Patrick's Ice Wine will definitely help. There are so many good skaters these days which is a really nice change from the days when you could basically pick the top 5 with very little effort. IMO, if Patrick holds it together, there isn't a skater around that can match his artistry and technical content. It's going to be a great season.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I have to agree with CSG here. Hanyu's my favorite by far but someone mentioned it before: his new layout is insane, and not necessarily in a good way. So insane in fact that it may well be beyond Hanyu's ability to execute and pushing the technical envelope might be his undoing (at least this season). So what can Patrick do against Hanyu's 3 quads and 2x3A? He can try to rely on his superior PCSs and skate cleanly because Hanyu most likely won't.

But that's okay. As Li'Kitsu said, with 3 quads and 2 axels, Hanyu will be unbeatable. But that's okay because that SHOULD be unbeatable. If Chan can't land 2 quads, adding one won't necessarily help. There have been many instances where adding difficulty still puts you behind. Chan's strategy should be to do what he's capable of. Is anyone saying Ten should add a different quad or Fernandez should add a second 3A to stay competitive with Hanyu? No, because they know that while they have less difficulty, it's much more likely they can execute that to their ability.

We've gotten to a point where a clean top skater with 2 quads and a 3A can score 190+. Even a skater Brown can get 177 points with no quad attempt, which is just 4 points shy of Ten's top FS score of 181 at the last Worlds.

Let's bear in mind that Chan still has the record for FS and total score, and that's without a 4S or a second triple axel. So clearly if he sticks with his difficulty he'll still win if he manages to go clean (which rarely happens) and if Hanyu makes any sort of error (which happens a lot).

 

[4everchan]

i wonder if PCS will be readjusted when chan is back... wouldn't judge give him an edge if he skates a beautiful program cleanly even if it's less demanding technically than let's say a jam packed program that has some flaws, less transitions and a couple messy landings (if not even falls)

 

[Li'Kitsu]

i remember i created a hanyu vs machida thread before and it was closed for a reason that no thread should be created that aims to bring two skaters in comparison. So lets see if gs mods will be ironclad with their ruling.

As long as the discussion stays civil, why would any vs. thread be categorically bad?

Is anyone saying Ten should add a different quad or Fernandez should add a second 3A to stay competitive with Hanyu? No, because they know that while they have less difficulty, it's much more likely they can execute that to their ability.

Actually I think DTen did talk about adding a 4S for worlds, and I think I did hear people talk about it. There's also always been talk about Javi and that 2nd SP quad. Nevertheless, you're right PChan is getting more of these comments, but IMO that's because people still see him as more of a favorite than the other 2.

I have to agree with CSG here. Hanyu's my favorite by far but someone mentioned it before: his new layout is insane, and not necessarily in a good way. So insane in fact that it may well be beyond Hanyu's ability to execute and pushing the technical envelope might be his undoing (at least this season). So what can Patrick do against Hanyu's 3 quads and 2x3A? He can try to rely on his superior PCSs and skate cleanly because Hanyu most likely won't.

Yes, might be the case. We have no idea how Hanyu will manage his new layout, so what we do here is only, as always, speculation. That's why I said there's the very real chance that Hanyu will mess up and give the gold away. (I expect Chan f.e. to win SC, he's the better GP skater of the 2).

 

[balladeno1]

Not "clearly" in my mind at all. Especially since both of them have been grossly overcored many a time and PChan hasn't skated in over a year. Who says Javi isn't going to get better scores this year - again, he is the world champion, so I would expect an increase in PCS, and maybe he will up his TES as well.

Hanyu is great for sure, but he isn't infallible. No comment on PChan.

No one is infallible. With all due respect, I think that Javier is a little stiff in his neck and shoulders when he is jumping(Yes, I get that jump position do get stiff, but maybe it's the style and way he jumps...nevermind this part) and not performing the choreographed movements. Where as Chan, Ten, and Hanyu are a little looser in the upper body and perform their movements to the utmost reach. Just my opinion though, since I watch a lot of ballet, hehehe.

Definitely interested to see how this will turn out. I saw a mention of Miner and Farris, I believe. They, besides Jeremy, are skaters from the US in the men's skating really make me feel brought into the performance, which is very hard for me to feel. So, I hope they are able to make top 10s! Loved Give Me Love so so much! Not only US skaters Farris and Miner, but also China's Han Yan. Not quite there yet for me artistically, but definitely a lot of potential!

A difference between Hanyu and Chan artistically is that to my knowledge throught message boards and interviews, Hanyu is very artistic and improvises his choreography sometimes, whereas Chan has every movement planned perfectly and precariously.

 

[nieves]

I'm pretty sure Hanyu is his last name.

 

[ice coverage]

Not being funny but whey did the mod change this thread title of Patrick Vs Hanyu? (Same with Mao vs Liza thread)

Now it is Chan vs Hanyu, when really if you want to change it properly to surname only, it should be Chan vs Yuzuru. Hanyu is his first name.

Just saying

- OS vs Mods

Are you joking?

Hanyu is his surname (family name). Yuzuru is his first name.

 

[OS]

I'm pretty sure Hanyu is his last name.

Oh really? I thought Hanyu = 羽生 Yuzuru = 結弦, and his name is 羽生?
Can someone please confirm?

 

[Krunchii]

Oh really? I thought Hanyu = 羽生 Yuzuru = 結弦, and his name is 羽生?
Can someone please confirm?

His first name is Yuzuru and family/last name is Hanyu, Japanese is just like Korean and Chinese, family name comes first

 

[FlattFan]

PCS, Chan's SS is slightly better than Hanyu's SS. Hanyu's TR should be much higher. CH/PE/IN neither are Dai. Should be the same level. If they are judged correctly, Hanyu should have higher PCS.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

PCS, Chan's SS is slightly better than Hanyu's SS. Hanyu's TR should be much higher. CH/PE/IN neither are Dai. Should be the same level. If they are judged correctly, Hanyu should have higher PCS.

Chan generates more speed with his crossovers and gets deeper edges, which makes his skating look effortless. Hanyu's jumps look easy, but I find that he doesn't have the same flow across the ice in between elements. As far as TR, Hanyu shouldn't be much higher. If you look at Chan's TR throughout his program, overall he has more. Although again, Hanyu has harder transitions going into jumps (Chan has slightly harder transitions going into his quads, but Hanyu has harder transitions into his triple axel). Both are strong performers although Chan's arms and hands are more elegant and show more finesse; Hanyu does "get into" his performances better than Chan though. Interpretation is hard to say - I think Chan is better at picking up nuances in the music, although Hanyu's SP last year was a great step forward for him in that regard... choreography-wise, Chan still has the best choreography, but again Hanyu has improved in that area. Overall, I'd say if both skated absolutely clean, I'd put their max PCS something like 95-96 PCS for Chan and 93-94 PCS for Hanyu.

 

[OS]

His first name is Yuzuru and family/last name is Hanyu, Japanese is just like Korean and Chinese, family name comes first

Thanks I got so muddled because I have only ever called him Hanyu and it is his nick in Chinese that I assumed to be his name. Oh boy how silly of me. Didn't realise it was a Kim Yuna Yuna Kim situation. Wow this changed my perception of him... instead of born of feather, he is now a tight knot!!!

My apologies to the mods.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks I got so muddled because I have only ever called him Hanyu and it is his nick in Chinese that I assumed to be his name. Oh boy how silly of me. Didn't realise it was a Kim Yuna Yuna Kim situation. Wow this changed my perception of him... instead of born of feather, he is now a tight knot!!!

My apologies to the mods.

The reason that the mods usually change all names to last (family) names in thread titles is so that they are more likely to come up when someone does a Google search for their favorite skater.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Chan generates more speed with his crossovers and gets deeper edges, which makes his skating look effortless. Hanyu's jumps look easy, but I find that he doesn't have the same flow across the ice in between elements. As far as TR, Hanyu shouldn't be much higher. If you look at Chan's TR throughout his program, overall he has more. Although again, Hanyu has harder transitions going into jumps (Chan has slightly harder transitions going into his quads, but Hanyu has harder transitions into his triple axel). Both are strong performers although Chan's arms and hands are more elegant and show more finesse; Hanyu does "get into" his performances better than Chan though. Interpretation is hard to say - I think Chan is better at picking up nuances in the music, although Hanyu's SP last year was a great step forward for him in that regard... choreography-wise, Chan still has the best choreography, but again Hanyu has improved in that area. Overall, I'd say if both skated absolutely clean, I'd put their max PCS something like 95-96 PCS for Chan and 93-94 PCS for Hanyu.

I agree, of course in the end a PCS gap of ≈3 points is not enough to overcome the tech of a clean Yuzu.

And yes, Chanyu doesn't have programs nor perform their programs at near the level of Dai...

 

[FlattFan]

Chan generates more speed with his crossovers and gets deeper edges, which makes his skating look effortless. Hanyu's jumps look easy, but I find that he doesn't have the same flow across the ice in between elements. As far as TR, Hanyu shouldn't be much higher. If you look at Chan's TR throughout his program, overall he has more. Although again, Hanyu has harder transitions going into jumps (Chan has slightly harder transitions going into his quads, but Hanyu has harder transitions into his triple axel).

I don't agree with the speed and the deeper edge. Look at the fancam for both of them in the same events (mainly the last GPF and Sochi) and you can see Hanyu was flying from one end to another with massive speed. It shocks me how fast he is.
Chan has better posture and thus, looks like he has better control of his edge, but just look at the blade, Hanyu is better.

Hanyu's GOE on his jumps are reflective of what he does before and after the jumps. Chan's TR should be lower. He has almost no TR for his 3A, a lot of TR for other jumps, but with lower level of difficulty.

The other 3 components, they are ok, i don't think they are even as good as DTen.