Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16 | Page 67 | Golden Skate

Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

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...he should done a 3Z+2T and picked up 8 more points.

I think this rule is more than just "unfortunate" whether we call it an unfortunate Zayak violation or an unfortunate SP repeated jump violation. What possible sense does it make to give someone 8 points for doing a 3Lz+2T and 0 points for a 3Lz+3T?

The rule should be, "You can't do two triple toes" instead of "you can't do a second triple toe." That way, if you violate the rule and do two triple toes you lose credit for the lower-scored rather than for the one that comes temporally second.

Or you could just use common sense from the get-go and give credit for the 3Lz, which was, after all, properly done in combination (in actual fact if not in ISU-speak).
 
my question… if he had only bothered doing the 3Z alone… he would have gotten a deduction for the not doing a combo.. but still would have had 3 valid passes… ? is that right? the current rule is silly… but we don't care…. 4everchan lovers ;)
I think this rule is more than just "unfortunate" whether we call it an unfortunate Zayak violation or an unfortunate SP repeated jump violation. What possible sense does it make to give someone 8 points for doing a 3Lz+2T and 0 points for a 3Lz+3T?

The rule should be, "You can't do two triple toes" instead of "you can't do a second triple toe." That way, if you violate the rule and do two triple toes you lose credit for the lower-scored rather than for the one that comes temporally second.

Or you could just use common sense from the get-go and give credit for the 3Lz, which was, after all, properly done in combination (in actual fact if not in ISU-speak).
 
my question… if he had only bothered doing the 3Z alone… he would have gotten a deduction for the not doing a combo.. but still would have had 3 valid passes… ? is that right? the current rule is silly… but we don't care…. 4everchan lovers ;)

Yes, there would have been some sort of -GOEs I think, but the jump would have been fully valid. I think, if he had added a 3T to the 3T instead of the 3Lz he would have been fine as well?
 
and that is sick…. if you can do 3T-3T… and a 3Z but not 3Z-3T and a 3T… that is just weird… and sick… wow… never thought of that option…. and i am sure patrick didn't either LOL
Yes, there would have been some sort of -GOEs I think, but the jump would have been fully valid. I think, if he had added a 3T to the 3T instead of the 3Lz he would have been fine as well?
 
and that is sick…. if you can do 3T-3T… and a 3Z but not 3Z-3T and a 3T… that is just weird… and sick… wow… never thought of that option…. and i am sure patrick didn't either LOL
I know this rule has been around for a while, but it is really favoring those with 4S instead of 4T in their SP. You don't have to worry about 3S being repeated in a jump combination.
I guess the key is to remember if you triple a Toe loop and can't do a 3Lo in combination, than 1. immediately add a 3T to the first 3T to make it into a 3T-3T combination or 2. Make sure your final combination is -2T or -2Lo.
In the past, skaters like Yuzu and Chan would rather fall on a Quad than triple it, and it's rare since they both become very consistent with the 4T, perhaps the new deduction on the fall and the pressure to have a perfect Quad made both of them fall for this rule this session?
 
Chan did a similar error a couple of seasons' ago, then, people thought he couln't count.
Now two or three years later, his math still fails him, although he spent a year and half in U of T, not known for bad mathematics.

I would in all modesty, blames it on his 'coaching' expertise, which is not exactly figure skating.

Now the point of Hanyu vs Chan should be put to rest, at long last. For Hanyu will be, in all probability, the first skater ever to win 3 World Championships in a row, and if he continues in this manner, the fourth one next season will be his.

Patrick, placing dead last after SP, has a snowball chance in hell of getting onto the podium, this time, without a small miracle!

Ah! Well! I wlll stay up the wee hours, to watch the ladies' SP tonite, hope the Russian kids can break out into the limelight, otherwise, it will be quite monotonous, Japan rules the ice!
 
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Chan did a similar error a couple of seasons' ago, then, people thought he couln't count.
Now two or three years later, his math still fails him, although he spent a year and half in U of T, not known for bad mathematics.

I would in all modesty, blames it on his 'coaching' expertise, which is not exactly figure skating.

Now the point of Hanyu vs Chan should be put to rest, at long last. For Hanyu will be, in all probability, the first skater ever to win 3 World Championships in a row, and if he continues in this manner, the fourth one next season will be his.

Patrick, placing dead last after SP, has a snowball chance in hell of getting onto the podium, this time, without a small miracle!

Ah! Well! I wlll stay up the wee hours, to watch the ladies' SP tonite, hope the Russian kids can break out into the limelight, otherwise, it will be quite monotonous, Japan rules the ice!


Gpf not world Championships ;)
 
Patrick Vs Yuzu for me so far:

10:9 GP 1st match up FS
7:10 GP 2ND EVENT SP
7:10* GPF SP

Come on Chan!!!!! Skate a magic FS!!! The universe need to be aligned...balanced, some how. Best Patrick vs best Hanyu, moment of truth.
 
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Chan did a similar error a couple of seasons' ago, then, people thought he couln't count.
Now two or three years later, his math still fails him, although he spent a year and half in U of T, not known for bad mathematics.

I would in all modesty, blames it on his 'coaching' expertise, which is not exactly figure skating.

Now the point of Hanyu vs Chan should be put to rest, at long last. For Hanyu will be, in all probability, the first skater ever to win 3 World Championships in a row, and if he continues in this manner, the fourth one next season will be his.

Patrick, placing dead last after SP, has a snowball chance in hell of getting onto the podium, this time, without a small miracle!

Ah! Well! I wlll stay up the wee hours, to watch the ladies' SP tonite, hope the Russian kids can break out into the limelight, otherwise, it will be quite monotonous, Japan rules the ice!

Gpf not world Championships ;)

EXACTLY…. GPF…. cause hanyu is far from winning 3 WC in a row… something Chan has done.
 
Sorry Guys! Got mixed up! Championship is in Springtime, Right?

But seeing Hanyu skate, it is like seeing half of Patrick's footwork. No wonder, my Canadian coach told me, that Skate Japan took the Canadian footwork program/training as their model, nowadays. Especially after Patrick's month long stay in Japanese team summer of 2012, the famous footwork of Mohawk turns....littte spurt jumps, Scottish like steps (wonder whether the Scottish/Canadian coaches invented that) are seen in most Japanese skaters' footwork performance. Even YanHan, the Chinese skater who failed to make the GFP, danced a few of that spurt jump sequence, in the Skate Japan competition, two weeks ago. Yan had said his idol, was Chan, and the two worked for a month together in the Seca organised show circuit a couple of years ago. Except Jin the quadruple kid, his footwork is still ancient, flailing his arms about like a windmill, pretty like fanning off flies around him......he should learn more.
 
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The problem is Chan has botched three SPs in a row this season, and this last one was the worst botch of all because it cost him the most points. And it is the hardest to recover from, being the GPF against the toughest competition. Even with his best skate, it will be nearly impossible for him to make the podium.

What is he going to do about this problem? His current coach seems to think it is a big ha-ha. When he came back to the KnC steaming, for a moment there I thought he was going to smack her if she didn't stop giggling. It's obvious he needs a technically oriented coach to get him back into competitive shape, because he really isn't quite there yet.
 
Yuzu repeated 2T in his Short, got no points on 2T and 3Lz-2T, so it's not just repeating a triple, maybe for repeating any jump in two separate passes? When was this rule first introduced? It seems skaters and commentators alike are not very familiar with this rule.

It's been around since the 1991 season (same year that figures were completely gone, coincidentally).

In the 1970s and 80s, the SP rules required a solo double axel, a specified solo double jump, and a specified double jump in the combination, so the only jump the skaters got to choose was the other (usually triple) jump in the combination.

In 1989 the SP rules loosened to allow men to choose any triple and ladies any double jump out of steps, and the combination jumps were also free choice (one double and one triple, or two triples for men or two doubles for ladies at that point).

So by 1990, several of the top guys were doing 3A+3T combo, solo 3A as the jump out of steps (usually with few steps), and the required double axel. The ISU decided it wasn't a good idea after all to let skaters do axels for all their jumping passes (or solo 3Lz and 3Lz+2T combo, as Paul Wylie and maybe others did instead), so they introduced a rule that it was not permitted to repeat the same jump in more than one jump pass of the short program.

The rule should be, "You can't do two triple toes" instead of "you can't do a second triple toe." That way, if you violate the rule and do two triple toes you lose credit for the lower-scored rather than for the one that comes temporally second.

That would make sense.

It would also make sense for Zayak violations in the free skate (which is what the official "Zayak rule" applies to), to throw out the lower-valued rather than the later element that contributes to the repeat violation.

Or you could just use common sense from the get-go and give credit for the 3Lz, which was, after all, properly done in combination (in actual fact if not in ISU-speak).

That would make less sense, because a jump combination is a required element in the SP, and a 3Lz is not a combination.

However, this year they are throwing out single jumps, or lower-valued double jumps of 2-2 combinations, in short program combos that don't meet the requirements for that short program, and calling the element Jump that counts+COMBO. So in this case they could call a 3Lz+3T as 3Lz+COMBO and give base value for the 3Lz, with -3 GOE.

Any jump coded as +COMBO, whether because the other jump actually executed in the combo didn't count (wrong number of revolutions, or repeat of solo jump as suggested here) or because it didn't exist (if the skater fell on the first jump of the intended combo or otherwise was unable to execute the second jump), gets automatic -3 GOE. That's the only automatic GOE remaining.
 
It's been around since the 1991 season (same year that figures were completely gone, coincidentally).

In the 1970s and 80s, the SP rules required a solo double axel, a specified solo double jump, and a specified double jump in the combination, so the only jump the skaters got to choose was the other (usually triple) jump in the combination.

In 1989 the SP rules loosened to allow men to choose any triple and ladies any double jump out of steps, and the combination jumps were also free choice (one double and one triple, or two triples for men or two doubles for ladies at that point).

So by 1990, several of the top guys were doing 3A+3T combo, solo 3A as the jump out of steps (usually with few steps), and the required double axel. The ISU decided it wasn't a good idea after all to let skaters do axels for all their jumping passes (or solo 3Lz and 3Lz+2T combo, as Paul Wylie and maybe others did instead), so they introduced a rule that it was not permitted to repeat the same jump in more than one jump pass of the short program.

Thanks for taking the time and explaining this. Wow, 1991, this rule is older than me :laugh:
 
The problem is Chan has botched three SPs in a row this season, and this last one was the worst botch of all because it cost him the most points. And it is the hardest to recover from, being the GPF against the toughest competition. Even with his best skate, it will be nearly impossible for him to make the podium.

What is he going to do about this problem? His current coach seems to think it is a big ha-ha. When he came back to the KnC steaming, for a moment there I thought he was going to smack her if she didn't stop giggling. It's obvious he needs a technically oriented coach to get him back into competitive shape, because he really isn't quite there yet.


It is really hard to recover from but rather here than at Nationals and Worlds. I am thinking maybe he should look into some extra competitions and take a trip to 4CC as well. I don't think Patrick would be aiming to for podium either at this point, I think he is just aiming to tell people he's not done yet.

Yeah he was fuming and didn't seem like he wanted to look at her. I am conflicted about his coaching situation, who could coach him and would he actually leave Kathy? If he wants a 4S or to struggle less on his 3A, she can't help him. I am wondering if someone like Rafael can help him get into a winning mindset. He should also see a sports psychologist but apparently he doesn't believe in it.
 
I think Patrick just needs a back up plan. I know that it's really hard to think through "what do I have to do to salvage this" while you're trying to be expressive and have your edges great and show expression but I think he should have put more practice into worst case scenarios.

Like work with his team and go "hmm, if i don't do the quad at the beginning and triple it, then I shouldn't do the 3-3 combo because it invalidates it" sort of thinking. Or like if I fall on the quad then it's okay to do the 3-3 combo. Or even if he just does the single quad he can do the 3-3 later and actually get more points that way. It's so hard for me to believe that him and his team has spent the time outlining these possible worst case scenarios because as a skater in a field this deep, you can't expect to be at 100 all the time. You just gotta have a backup plan.

With Yuzu, even when he botches one of his 3A combos, he knows which jump to tack onto his other single jumps or do like a plan b for his combos so that he squeezes out the most amount of points possible in his FS. I mean the mistakes he made at SC with his SP were serious because he really couldn't even squeeze out a 3T behind his lutz to not have it invalidated. I'm sure in his mind he was like oh i gotta do the 3-3 but sometimes physically you can't execute the plan b.

Patrick's case, he had a great running edge out of that 3lz but he failed think "oh man i should just do a nice 2t so that this will count" but maybe it's just muscle memory of doing a 3-3 that got the better of him.
 
I think Patrick just needs a back up plan. I know that it's really hard to think through "what do I have to do to salvage this" while you're trying to be expressive and have your edges great and show expression but I think he should have put more practice into worst case scenarios.

Like work with his team and go "hmm, if i don't do the quad at the beginning and triple it, then I shouldn't do the 3-3 combo because it invalidates it" sort of thinking. Or like if I fall on the quad then it's okay to do the 3-3 combo. Or even if he just does the single quad he can do the 3-3 later and actually get more points that way. It's so hard for me to believe that him and his team has spent the time outlining these possible worst case scenarios because as a skater in a field this deep, you can't expect to be at 100 all the time. You just gotta have a backup plan.

No, Chan needs to first read the rule book and learn the rules, because he admitted he hasn't even done that.
 
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No, he needs to first read the rule book and learn the rules, because he admitted he hasn't even done that.

If that's true, that's not very professional. And even if he himself didn't read it, shouldn't his coaches have? Also, when did he say this? I don't like pointing the blame unless it was true but I have heard something similar.
 
No, Chan needs to first read the rule book and learn the rules, because he admitted he hasn't even done that.

And that's precisely why he needs a technical coach. How many skaters can recite the rule book? How many skaters understand this judging system? I believe that's the job of the coach and the choreographer - the skater just needs to skate AND have a backup plan if something goes wrong that should be planned for between coach/choreographer and skater.
 
In his interview after the short to be honest I was a little shocked to hear Patrick so seemingly annoyed about the element being invalid. Like sure it sucks because it was a nice combination, but you need to be aware of the rules of your sport you know? It was just an off day overall for him, but I would love for him to work more on either having a backup plan or just being able to think a bit quicker on the ice.
 
And that's precisely why he needs a technical coach. How many skaters can recite the rule book? How many skaters understand this judging system? I believe that's the job of the coach and the choreographer - the skater just needs to skate AND have a backup plan if something goes wrong that should be planned for between coach/choreographer and skater.

Really it is the best if the skater knows the rules. They don't need to know them all, but a basic understanding of which jumps you can and cannot repeat would help. Remembering and executing a long program is hard enough without having to remember your backup plans in case you mess up any of the jumps. Being able to acknowledge your mistake and rethink the layout at the time would be preferable and Yuzuru has shown more than once that it's possible. Patrick can do it too, I'm sure.
 
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