Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

[aftertherain]

I think Kwanford brought up an interesting points about the number of time Kim Yuna has messed up and how she also rarely skates two perfect programs in a row. That's true but at the same time, her two perfect programs at the Olympics were SO astonishing that I think it sort of cancels all that out ... So, I just can't help but think of Yuna has a better competitor than Sasha and it is is obvious that Yuna's technique is just more reliable.

Actually .... now that I think about it ... that's is true. But Kim manages to win major titles unlike Sasha. Then again, her jumps are stronger than Sasha's. Every time Sasha landed a jump, I hoped she wouldn't fall.

On another note what is so wrong that some Kim fans proclaim her as the greatest ever. Lord knows nearly every Kwan fan declares her as so even without an Olympic Gold.

Oh. It's not. But in general, it's just annoying when "fans" are "atonished" that a skater "should have gotten waaay more points/waaay higher marks because s/he was "better" even though s/he popped a jump and fell on another.

 

[MrScroogeMcDuck]

Lord knows nearly every Kwan fan declares her as so even without an Olympic Gold.

Yeah, she only won five world championships.

 

[miki88]

I think being able to skate clean consistently is one advantage Michelle had over Yuna if it were judged under 6.0 system. Michelle was remarkably consistent over her career. Being able to skate clean is not as rewarded in the new system because elements are scored separately. The 6.0 system seems to give more value to the overall impression of the performances.

 

[pangtongfan]

Yeah, she only won five world championships.

Witt won 2 Olympics and 4 Worlds in 5 years
Henjie won 3 Olympics and 10 Worlds
Yamaguchi won 1 Olympics, 2 Worlds, and 4 World Pros
Heiss won Olympic Gold, Olympic silver, and 5 Worlds
Szabo won Olympics, 5 Worlds in a row, and won World titles in pairs too

So if it is only about prestige of titles and dominance neither Kwan or Kim would even qualify for consideration. Obviously it is not all about medals as nobody even mentions Heiss or Szabo imparticular today.

 

[pangtongfan]

I think being able to skate clean consistently is one advantage Michelle had over Yuna if it were judged under 6.0 system. Michelle was remarkably consistent over her career. Being able to skate clean is not as rewarded in the new system because elements are scored separately. The 6.0 system seems to give more value to the overall impression of the performances.

That is true. I often long for the days of the 6.0 system when I see all the splatty performances given medals today. I still mantain it is much harder to skate clean in this system though with the extra demands on level 4 spins and footwork, jump combinations, lots of transitions into and between elements. I think it would be a mistake to assume any of the skaters under 6.0 (and there were many of them who often skated clean, not just Kwan) would find it easy to skate clean under COP as they did under 6.0 since the rules demand alot more of the skaters.

As hard as I am sometimes on someone like Chan for example he makes so many mistakes in part because of the sheer difficulty of his programs too. He could probably skate easier programs and skate cleaner but he loads his programs with transitions between and into all his elements, max jump value (particularly now including a quad), and all level 4 non jump elements which take alot of energy. And skaters like Kim and Asada especialy are similar in that regard except they make less mistakes than he does (well Mao used to).

 

[Layfan]

Actually .... now that I think about it ... that's is true. But Kim manages to win major titles unlike Sasha. Then again, her jumps are stronger than Sasha's. Every time Sasha landed a jump, I hoped she wouldn't fall.

Well ... Yuna won ONE major title with a mistake - 2009 worlds. (I suppose we are not counting the GPF as a major title for the purposes of this discussion, because Sasha won one of those.) And it was SUCH a minor mistake - a popped salchow. It was most certainly not enough to erase her tremendous lead from her amazing SP.

It helped that Yuna's main rival was not on form that competitions. Yuna was just head and shoulders above everyone at 2009 worlds. The same could not be said for Sasha. She certainly needed to be perfect to beat Irina's Skate of her Life in 2005. And even them, Irina probably would have beat her, she was so good that night.

 

[pangtongfan]

Sashas best chances to win a World or Olympic title were the 2004 Worlds and 2006 Worlds, and to a lesser degree the 2006 Olympics. The 2004 Worlds the judges had virtually crowned her by the time the free skate came around. Even with a tenative, flawed, and rather weak performance she lost the gold by a narrow margin to Shizukas skate of a life. She just had to skate fairly clean and do something fairly nice and secure and she would have had it in the bag.

2006 Worlds go without saying.

2006 Olympics I think even if she had skated cleanly someone like Shizuka would have probably done more than the 5 triples she did (she was capable of way more than this) and won anyway.

The 2003 Worlds she would have had to do a triple lutz-triple toe in atleast 2 of the 3 programs while skating them all cleanly to win. Kwan had all the momentum after Nationals and was the judges and sentimental favorite at those Worlds, and skated beautifully as well.

2005 Worlds Irina was in the zone, had all the momentum and was on home ice, so almost no chance of anyone beating her there either.

 

[MrScroogeMcDuck]

So if it is only about prestige of titles and dominance neither Kwan or Kim would even qualify for consideration. Obviously it is not all about medals as nobody even mentions Heiss or Szabo imparticular today.

I agree with that. However, you seemed to get quite a kick out of people who think Kwan is the best ever despite her failure to get the OGM. Your comment seemed to ignore her other world-level victories.

 

[blue dog]

I think being able to skate clean consistently is one advantage Michelle had over Yuna if it were judged under 6.0 system. Michelle was remarkably consistent over her career. Being able to skate clean is not as rewarded in the new system because elements are scored separately. The 6.0 system seems to give more value to the overall impression of the performances.

Well, yes. Skating a program is like a math problem =)

6.0 - You must get the answer correct, or you won't get good marks. And then if you do get the answer correct, how high your marks are depend on how correctly each step of the problem was done. And no eraser marks!

CoP- The correct answer isn't necessary, as long as you either correctly demonstrate understanding of each step of the problem. And you get some points if your answer can "round up" to the correct answer.

 

[Tonichelle]

I think some of the critcisms of Sasha comes from the fact that she never managed to win a major title despite her successes and being a top skater for years. 2006 Worlds was really for her taking but she didn't manage to do it in the end and I think this disappointed a lot of people.

she did win Nationals which is a "major title" in the US... but yes, she never won a major INTERNATIONAL title.

 

[Mathman]

Sasha and her team promoted her as the next superstar of skating, predicted many World and Olympic titles for her, and declared that she would be even better than Michelle Kwan...

I don't remember it quite that way. Yes, Sasha's PR machine tried to keep her in the public eye -- that's was PR machines are for.

But as for winning many titles and eclipsing the records of other great skaters, I think the feeling was more like, Sasha has a chance to beat Michelle for the national championship, or Sasha is in the mix for a world title or Olympic medal if she can manage an error-free performance.

Or maybe something like: "What she does, she does so well (it makes me want to yell!), if only she could get those jumps more consistent."

 

[MKFSfan]

I always felt Mr. Nicks and co had a very well oiled PR team. Nothing wrong with that, especially since Sasha loved the limelight. I always wonder though if all the expectations weighed on her. I thought she had technique issues as well, so always believed the two combined were hard to overcome. What I used to get offended by was the constant reminders that Sasha was the "the most talented" or "technically the greatest" skater ever. That pretty much lend idea to she was going to replace Michelle and win all these Championships. I like Sasha, even enjoy watching her-she had some great SPs and exhibitions. I think she's a fantastic from the boot up skater-amazing flexibility and spinner, always had programs tailored to her strengths that also minimized her weaknesses, and she is pretty to watch. But I'm not surprised she never won a Big One even though she's got lots of Silvers. The only years I felt she was REALLY hyped to win Nationals and Worlds was 2003 and 2004, but at least she had a great GP series to back it up (well, also Nats/Worlds 2006, but given who she was up against, she should've easily won both). When people were spouting off that she should've won 2000 Nationals with the way the two skated...that was quite a stretch, IMO.

 

[antmanb]

Since if you are looking at the period Slutskaya is considered a great skater who could even be remotedly compared to Yu Na Kim that would only be 2000-2005. Nobody would even dare to compare the Slutskaya of 96-99 who was a second tier skater never contending for a major title and struggling to make Russian World teams to Yu Na Kim, nor would she be considered a great skater or tough opponent of any sort for Kwan during this period either. Slutskaya of 96-99 = Butyrskaya or Suguri basically.

But you were comparing her to Kwan so what does Yuna have to do with it? I also think it bizarre that you wouldn't consider Irina a contender in the late 90s when she was fifth in Nagano (with a 3/3 if memory serves) and won the silver medal behind Kwan at worlds in '98 (with two (albeit iffy) 3/3s).

My comment was purely about your comparison of Slutskaya and Kwan - they are similar ages and competed against each other far more times outside of the 2000-2005 period than they did within the period you selected, including as juniors. I would have thought that a better comparison of their career against each other would be the whole of their senior career. Otherwise it's about as useful as a comparison of their careers between 1995 and 2000.

Also - HI SENIORITA!!!!

 

[antmanb]

Exactly. Thank you.

Irina wasnt even the best pure jumper of her own time. Volchkova and Sebeysten were far more talented jumpers but unfortunately were too inconsistent and the rest of their skating was mediocre and blah.

WHAT????Volvhkova and Sebeysten?? Talented jumpers? Sebesteyn was a toe jumper who hated the salchow and loop and often popped and fell on those jumps. Both girls had good solid technique on the lutz and that is it. Both had pronounced lips.

Give them the crown of best lutz if you must, personally I wouldn't on the basis that it was both girls "best" textbook jump but neither had enough success with it - sebesteyn often popping UR or falling on the lutz in competition outside of about a few months of good competition. Both telegrahped the jump for the entire legnth of the rink, weren't much bigger in terms of height than Irina and all three had mediocre flow out of the lutz.

Frankly if we are talking jumpers in ladies no one, not a single person past or present (and dare I say future for the next 10 years) even begins to hold a candle to Midori Ito and the leader of the runners up by a country mile is Tonya Harding. The rest of the losers can battle it out for third place

Ant

 

[pangtongfan]

But you were comparing her to Kwan so what does Yuna have to do with it? I also think it bizarre that you wouldn't consider Irina a contender in the late 90s when she was fifth in Nagano (with a 3/3 if memory serves) and won the silver medal behind Kwan at worlds in '98 (with two (albeit iffy) 3/3s).

My comment was purely about your comparison of Slutskaya and Kwan - they are similar ages and competed against each other far more times outside of the 2000-2005 period than they did within the period you selected, including as juniors. I would have thought that a better comparison of their career against each other would be the whole of their senior career. Otherwise it's about as useful as a comparison of their careers between 1995 and 2000.

Also - HI SENIORITA!!!!

Except I wasnt trying to suggest Slutskaya had a better whole career than Kwan. I was only pointing out how she did vs Kwan while she was actually considered a somewhat great skater (which she certainly wasnt from 96-99). And even during the 2000-2005 period she still wasnt considered very artistic yet Kwan couldnt keep her from getting very high 2nd marks nonetheless, so I dont see how she was going to stop Kim who actually is considered very artistic from getting them.

And the silver at the 98 Worlds was only with the Olympic Gold and bronze medalists both out. Of course Irina in the 90s was a bit contender, one of the pack of bronze contenders at most events, but definitely not a major player or gold contender of any sort until 2000, and not even close to a real rival to Kwan until 2000. She was miles behind Kwan in every event they were in together those several years, minus Centennial on Ice where Kwan was sick.

 

[pangtongfan]

Frankly if we are talking jumpers in ladies no one, not a single person past or present (and dare I say future for the next 10 years) even begins to hold a candle to Midori Ito and the leader of the runners up by a country mile is Tonya Harding. The rest of the losers can battle it out for third place

Ant

Harding is way too inconsistent to deserve 2nd place. I would say Yu Na Kim is the 2nd best jumper in history behind Ito. Of course Ito is bar none the greatest women jumper in history even with the horrid leg wrap. Slutskaya was the best overall jumper of her own era (ahead of Lipinski, Hughes, Kwan, etc...) but all time barely top 10 probably if you take into account what skaters were doing for their own time. One thing for sure, Kim is a far better jumper than Slutskaya hands down, and Irinas biggest strength was her jumps, meaning she doesnt hold a candle to Yu Na.

 

[antmanb]

Harding is way too inconsistent to deserve 2nd place. I would say Yu Na Kim is the 2nd best jumper in history behind Ito. Of course Ito is bar none the greatest women jumper in history even with the horrid leg wrap. Slutskaya was the best overall jumper of her own era (ahead of Lipinski, Hughes, Kwan, etc...) but all time barely top 10 probably if you take into account what skaters were doing for their own time. One thing for sure, Kim is a far better jumper than Slutskaya hands down, and Irinas biggest strength was her jumps, meaning she doesnt hold a candle to Yu Na.

Epic fail!

Yuna is nowhere near the jumper Tonya was. She may have been inconsistent over her whole career but she had at least one season where she was on and Yuna comes nowhere near the quality of Tonya's jumps in terms speed, height, flow. Yuna herself is overall inconsistent as of today, albeit injuries have played a large part, she has not been consistent with her jumps and has no loop - that is not a second placed best jumper of all time, not even close.

Perhaps if she does compete for another four years she will prove herself but right now she's not even close to second place IMO, at the moment i'd say she's probably closer to Yamaguchi in terms of jumps with a nemisis triple, but i'd be tempted to give Yamaguchi the nod in a head to head comparison as she at least attempted her nemisis jump.

Ant

 

[pangtongfan]

Epic fail!

Yuna is nowhere near the jumper Tonya was. She may have been inconsistent over her whole career but she had at least one season where she was on and Yuna comes nowhere near the quality of Tonya's jumps in terms speed, height, flow. Yuna herself is overall inconsistent as of today, albeit injuries have played a large part, she has not been consistent with her jumps and has no loop - that is not a second placed best jumper of all time, not even close.

Yeah a skater who over half of her career was out of shape and landing 2 triples per program is the 2nd best jumper of all time just based on her potential which she exhibited 20% of the time at best.

Perhaps if she does compete for another four years she will prove herself but right now she's not even close to second place IMO, at the moment i'd say she's probably closer to Yamaguchi in terms of jumps with a nemisis triple, but i'd be tempted to give Yamaguchi the nod in a head to head comparison as she at least attempted her nemisis jump.

Yeah Yamaguchi with tiny little jumps and a bad flutz is a better jumper than Yu Na Kim now. Why do I bother with you 9 year olds. Even Michelle Kwan is a better jumper than Kristi Yamaguchi.

 

[antmanb]

Yeah a skater who over half of her career was out of shape and landing 2 triples per program is the 2nd best jumper of all time just based on her potential which she exhibited 20% of the time at best.

She had a season where she did her jumps exceptionally well, that's enough for me.

How exactly did you try to justify Sebesteyn and Volchkova as better jumpers than Slutskaya?

Let me know if you stop moving the goalposts so that I can be clear what standards you are using and I can try to keep up!

Yeah Yamaguchi with tiny little jumps and a bad flutz is a better jumper than Yu Na Kim now. Why do I bother with you 9 year olds. Even Michelle Kwan is a better jumper than Kristi Yamaguchi.

9 year old!!

Brilliant, if in doubt try personal attacks, goodness knows arguing your point would be far to difficult.

I see you Yamaguchi's flutz and raise you a Yuna lip :yay:

Ant

 

[pangtongfan]

She had a season where she did her jumps exceptionally well, that's enough for me.

So people who apparently look beyond one season to evaluate a skaters jumping ability are an epic fail. Especialy when comparing Slutskaya and Kwan in overall competition 6 seasons is not enough. Great logic for a 9 year old I guess.

How exactly did you try to justify Sebesteyn and Volchkova as better jumpers than Slutskaya?

I never said they were better jumpers. I said they had better jumping technique and pure jump quality. The same way you are claiming Harding did compared to Yu Na and others (which she does). However they didnt put it together enough so obviously they arent ultimately better jumpers but there technique was better. Reading comprehension appears to be one of your many shortcomings.

I see you Yamaguchi's flutz and raise you a Yuna lip :yay:

Try starting a poll who is a better jumper between Yamaguchi or Kim and you will be laughed at. A Harding vs Kim poll would be far more competitive. The majority of people would agree even Michelle Kwan is a better jumper than Yamaguchi and her tiny little jumps, and yet here you are saying she is better than Kim and having the audacity to call my comments an epic fail. Comedy gold.

BTW Kims jumps in quality are far closer to Hardings than Yamaguchi are to Kims, something anyone with eyes could see. In jump GOE today Harding would probably get similar to Kim (it is hard to get much higher) while Kristi would mostly get 0s.