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- Jun 3, 2009
Generally, I'm gonna say there's a difference between skating a competition in a totalitarian country and skating at a festival for a dictator.
Figure skaters lend presence to North Korean event
- Thread starter gsk8
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- Jan 7, 2011
Boy were there ever! In 1980, the Olympics were held in Moscow. This was at the height of the Cold War (and nearer the end than anybody thought at the time). The US led a massive international boycott of the Moscow games. A slew of countries did not participate. And wouldn't you know it, the next games were held in Los Angeles. The USSR struck back with its own boycott, joined by its Eastern Bloc allies. It was the most political the modern games had ever gotten.
But there were other instances, too. South Africa was banned from the games for decades over Apartheid. Afghanistan was banned from the games earlier in the millennium over the Taliban's treatment of women. Speaking of which, there is currently talk of banning Saudi Arabia from the games over the same issue. The Saudi regime refuses to send female athletes to the games (among many other repressive policies it has regarding women).
On a less massive scale, the fact is, politics can't be separated from anything. Politics exists as soon as more than one person is involved. Figure skating is far more politically involved than most things, due to its national nature. It's also more political than other nationalistic sports because it's entertainment and art, where the performers are expressing something one way or the other.
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- Aug 8, 2009
Thing is, I don't see how a public figure like Laura Lepisto can actually come out of this looking better. That she sold exclusive rights to her story to a Finnish magazine looks bad, and I can't imagine that she would be able to tell it wholly as she experienced it. I read the French pair's account of their time in N. Korea, and I felt that it was a very subdued account.
I wrote earlier about the Japanese football team's experience in N. Korea (and I remembered another detail; the players said that they knew they were being observed from behind the mirror because one player had accidentally semi-flooded the bathroom floor just before going to sleep, and he didn't inform the hotel front or anything like that but just went to sleep. Next morning, when he woke up, the bathroom was dry and clean. Someone had entered his room while he was asleep and had quietly cleaned up the mess!), and I think they told their experiences pretty honestly because they had to explain their loss to N. Korea to Japanese public and also because there were many of them to corroborate the story.
However, Laura Lepisto alone, or the French pair alone would feel quite uneasy about denouncing N. Korea and telling the horrors (if they actually had the opportunity to see it) they experienced or saw because they may feel that someone from N. Korea could,at worst, kill you, that they might quietly arrange a car accident or something like that. The Japanese football team said that they just didn't feel like winning against the N. Korean team because they were afraid of what would happen to them if they won. Likewise, maybe these figure skaters would be disinclined from blatantly criticizing N. Korea because they have already been instilled with fear.
The above may sound like too paranoid a theory, but there are, in fact, N. Korean spys active in Europe. It is known that Japanese students who were studying in Europe were kidnapped and taken back to N. Korea. The way they did it was to, for example, put an advertisement in a Japanese newsletter circulating in UK, seeking Japanese/English bilingual speakers who would act as a temporary buyer for e.g., Italian shoes and take the shipment back to Japan from Italy on an airplane. All flight cost and expenses would be paid. I have to say I lived in UK in the 90's and remember seeing such an ad on a monthly basis and thinking that it all sounded pretty fishy. I have no idea if the ads I saw were actually a N. Korean bait to find Japanese students that they could quietly kidnap, but I do know that there were Japanese people who simply disappeared in Europe and were taken to N. Korea, and that similar temporary buyer ads were used as baits.
I don't want to sound harsh, but I feel that maybe there is not enough awareness about the nature of N. Korean regime in Europe and that's why Laura Lepisto decided to go. If she had been invited to skate for Saddam Hussein in Iraq before the regime fell, or for Khadafi before Libiya fell, or skate in Congo or Afghanistan, I don't think she would have gone because she would know that those are not places you lightheartedly go to because you 'want to give joy to the people'.
So what am I trying to say? That it's good for these discussions to take place just as it doesn't become a witch hunt because it will lead to more awareness. Hopefully, next year, there will not be another Tomas Verner or Laura Lepisto.
I wrote earlier about the Japanese football team's experience in N. Korea (and I remembered another detail; the players said that they knew they were being observed from behind the mirror because one player had accidentally semi-flooded the bathroom floor just before going to sleep, and he didn't inform the hotel front or anything like that but just went to sleep. Next morning, when he woke up, the bathroom was dry and clean. Someone had entered his room while he was asleep and had quietly cleaned up the mess!), and I think they told their experiences pretty honestly because they had to explain their loss to N. Korea to Japanese public and also because there were many of them to corroborate the story.
However, Laura Lepisto alone, or the French pair alone would feel quite uneasy about denouncing N. Korea and telling the horrors (if they actually had the opportunity to see it) they experienced or saw because they may feel that someone from N. Korea could,at worst, kill you, that they might quietly arrange a car accident or something like that. The Japanese football team said that they just didn't feel like winning against the N. Korean team because they were afraid of what would happen to them if they won. Likewise, maybe these figure skaters would be disinclined from blatantly criticizing N. Korea because they have already been instilled with fear.
The above may sound like too paranoid a theory, but there are, in fact, N. Korean spys active in Europe. It is known that Japanese students who were studying in Europe were kidnapped and taken back to N. Korea. The way they did it was to, for example, put an advertisement in a Japanese newsletter circulating in UK, seeking Japanese/English bilingual speakers who would act as a temporary buyer for e.g., Italian shoes and take the shipment back to Japan from Italy on an airplane. All flight cost and expenses would be paid. I have to say I lived in UK in the 90's and remember seeing such an ad on a monthly basis and thinking that it all sounded pretty fishy. I have no idea if the ads I saw were actually a N. Korean bait to find Japanese students that they could quietly kidnap, but I do know that there were Japanese people who simply disappeared in Europe and were taken to N. Korea, and that similar temporary buyer ads were used as baits.
I don't want to sound harsh, but I feel that maybe there is not enough awareness about the nature of N. Korean regime in Europe and that's why Laura Lepisto decided to go. If she had been invited to skate for Saddam Hussein in Iraq before the regime fell, or for Khadafi before Libiya fell, or skate in Congo or Afghanistan, I don't think she would have gone because she would know that those are not places you lightheartedly go to because you 'want to give joy to the people'.
So what am I trying to say? That it's good for these discussions to take place just as it doesn't become a witch hunt because it will lead to more awareness. Hopefully, next year, there will not be another Tomas Verner or Laura Lepisto.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Ironical in view of later events, the reason for the boycott was that Russia had sent troops to Afghanistan the year before.
As George Washington said in turning the presidency over to John Adams in 1797, "Now I am fairly out and you are fairly in. See which of us will be the happiest."
Here is an interesting chronicle by Wikipedia of some of boycotts and controversies of the Olympic games going back to 1908. (In the 1908 games Finland, then part of the Russian empire, was not allowed to exhibit the Finnish flag, and the same for Ireland, then part of the British empire. Also. All of the Americans in the final of the 400 meter race withdrew in protest of a rules call, and the event was held with only one runner, from Britain.)
Here is one that I didn’t know about. In the 1936 games in Berlin the United States pulled the only two Jewish athletes from the team on the day of their race. I guess the USOC didn’t want to offend Hitler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Games_scandals_and_controversies
Yes, I think back to that year often and wonder how world history would have been different if Russia had decided not to send troops to Afghanistan.
The one thing I've come to realize is that there is no pure country. So if any country is going to have international ties, everyone concerned will have blood somewhere in its history or current behavior. Every country will also have great nobility. There is no simplicity anywhere in this equation. I like ImaginaryPogue's point that there's a difference between "skating a competition in a totalitarian country and skating at a festival for a dictator." I think in balance that it's better to have relations with all kinds of countries and try to reach out, but this event is more questionable than most. As for Lepisto's part in it, she gets a pass from me, because as I said before, I don't expect anyone that young or that removed from current affairs to have everything figured out. If they're making a fuss in Finland about Lepisto's participation in the event, that's their prerogative, but I can't get too angry at her. I'm intrigued, as I always am, that yet another dictator who requires absolutely Spartan, xenophobic living from his subjects can have such an appreciation of the finer perks of international culture. I bet he got good French wines imported to his table as well. Does anyone remember the palaces of the Ceaucescu family, that bastion of "people's rule," that were uncovered when the Romanian regime was finally overthrown?
The one thing I've come to realize is that there is no pure country. So if any country is going to have international ties, everyone concerned will have blood somewhere in its history or current behavior. Every country will also have great nobility. There is no simplicity anywhere in this equation. I like ImaginaryPogue's point that there's a difference between "skating a competition in a totalitarian country and skating at a festival for a dictator." I think in balance that it's better to have relations with all kinds of countries and try to reach out, but this event is more questionable than most. As for Lepisto's part in it, she gets a pass from me, because as I said before, I don't expect anyone that young or that removed from current affairs to have everything figured out. If they're making a fuss in Finland about Lepisto's participation in the event, that's their prerogative, but I can't get too angry at her. I'm intrigued, as I always am, that yet another dictator who requires absolutely Spartan, xenophobic living from his subjects can have such an appreciation of the finer perks of international culture. I bet he got good French wines imported to his table as well. Does anyone remember the palaces of the Ceaucescu family, that bastion of "people's rule," that were uncovered when the Romanian regime was finally overthrown?
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- Sep 10, 2009
Well, look who's talking.
True.
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- Jan 7, 2011
Skaters do get involved in what most people call politics all the time. Relegating threads like this to the politics forum would mean people who don't check that forum (which are probably most members here) would miss out on relevant news about their favorite skaters. Laura Lepisto is a major skater, and this is quite a significant event/scandal in her career.
And now that I've posted twice here, I might as well say what I think about it: I find it unconscionable to take a heap of money from a man known for profligate spending on his own luxuries (one of which is the services provided for this payment) while his people endure mass starvation. Trying to dress this up as some remote, diplomatic, international and symbolic gesture just depersonalizes the real atrocity here. If it were a man known for buying himself expensive things while his children starve, a merchant who knows this but still tries to sell him jewelry would be scum. In the case of North Korea's Supreme Leader, if all the dealers, black market and otherwise, stopped indulging his expensive tastes, he would exploited his people less. Laura Lepisto, Tomas Verner, Shen/Zhao and Champions on Ice itself are all dealers. Shame on them all.
And now that I've posted twice here, I might as well say what I think about it: I find it unconscionable to take a heap of money from a man known for profligate spending on his own luxuries (one of which is the services provided for this payment) while his people endure mass starvation. Trying to dress this up as some remote, diplomatic, international and symbolic gesture just depersonalizes the real atrocity here. If it were a man known for buying himself expensive things while his children starve, a merchant who knows this but still tries to sell him jewelry would be scum. In the case of North Korea's Supreme Leader, if all the dealers, black market and otherwise, stopped indulging his expensive tastes, he would exploited his people less. Laura Lepisto, Tomas Verner, Shen/Zhao and Champions on Ice itself are all dealers. Shame on them all.
In the interest of making this thread more "skating" and less "politics," I wonder why NK doesn't just use the money to pay the likes of Lepisto, S/Z etc for these festivals to build a solid skating program and have those skaters star in their own festival?
It seems that we only see skaters from NK during the Olympics and it's always just a singles skater and a pairs team. And if I remember the skaters got the basic technique down (I remember the girl from the 2006 Olympics had a HUGE lutz), but just didn't have the polish or the reputation to qualify for the free skate.
It seems that we only see skaters from NK during the Olympics and it's always just a singles skater and a pairs team. And if I remember the skaters got the basic technique down (I remember the girl from the 2006 Olympics had a HUGE lutz), but just didn't have the polish or the reputation to qualify for the free skate.
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- Jun 27, 2003
Carter would even deny getting the petition from the athletes of the winter games pleading for him to NOT boycott the summer olympics (Scott Hamilton's Autobiography). I'll refrain from Carter bashing in the thread, but of all the "petty" reasons to pull out of a sporting event, especially when Russia had threaten to do the same for the winter games but they sucked it up (and their hockey team lost, maybe there's a point to all that lol)
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- Jun 3, 2008
I agree. I didnt want to mean that, it is not the same yes. In the first post I wrote I said I wouldnt probably go, but I m not a skater, and me as seniorita I m not doing anything to make N.Korean people feel better about their dictator, so I dont like judging other people's action from my couch.
To connect with skating somehow, I read the skaters also hold seminars for the local skaters, so at least one good came out from their visit.
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- Dec 4, 2004
Good one.....wonder how much offending Jesse Owens did to the master race? It is interesting that African Americans and folks of Jewish faith weren't exactly held in high reguard in the US in 1936, either.
Extra points....what lady figure skater was accused of being a Nazi sympathizer?
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- Aug 2, 2011
According to wikipedia, Sonja Henie even did a Nazi salute to Hitler...
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- Jun 27, 2003
perhaps I'm playing devils advocate, but was she a Nazi sympathiser, or did she see the salute as teh same way one from another country still "salutes" the host country's leadership? You still curtsey when in the audience of The Queen, for example... You bow to dignitaries in Japan, tip your head to the president of the USA, etc... while the Nazi salute is now something you never ever want to do, is it really anything different? (just a little more... um.. noticable?)
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I don't think I was as ignorant as Lepisto when I was 23. It's good to be an elite figure skater, huh? Those elite skaters seem to live in a parallel world in which only figure skating matters, and all they care about is competitions and training. They travel all over the world, but they only see hotels, arenas and some tourist spots. Maybe they don't watch news. Those European skaters may be more aware of what's going on in Europe just because they live there, but practically have no interest in outside of it. I wouldn't be surprised if they are clueless about what's happening in Syria.
They traveled to North Korea just to please the regime that has been doing this to its people for quite some time, and received money from it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGR0BD2e1Ok
Of course, the invited skaters did not have to see starving people as Pyongyang is a city in which only the chosen are allowed to live, super-clean and artificial. Ignorance is bliss, indeed.
I guess Chan was telling truth when he said that he didn't know there were accusations of human rights violations against China.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskat...-chan-explains-his-comments-about-canada.html
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- Mar 25, 2008
That is such a generalization. Quite a lot of skaters have interests and activities beyond skating, and many pursue academic studies parallel to their careers. We know very little about most skaters' lives outside the sport - mostly what's revealed in interviews and media profiles. Some skaters may have few interests outside the rink; others are intelligent, educated and knowledgeable about global event - and many probably fall somewhere in between. It may well be that the participating skaters consider these shows an opportunity to travel to a country that's not easy to visit and have as much interaction with its citizens as possible.
I'm not sure why skaters' knowledge (or lack thereof) regarding the events in Syria are relevant to this discussion.
Considering we still haven't heard from Laura directly, I'm not going to guess what her views and understanding of the situation in NK might be.
Lepisto has sold the exclusive right of her travel report to a magazine, hasn't she? Apparently, she thought it was a good business opportunity.
It sounds too naive to me if the skaters thought they could interact with "ordinary" citizens in Pyongyang. The NK government would have selected some model citizens for them, though.
I would love to know if they new NK's narcotics program (manufacturing and trafficking), too.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/MC18Dg02.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3igdk7pkEd4
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- Mar 14, 2006
If you're going to shame the skaters, please be fair about it and don't exempt people who are actually current competitors like Pechalat/Bourzat and ... I still would like to know if it's Mae-Berenice I saw, or possibly even Surya? It didn't look like Yretha.
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- Jul 26, 2003
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Folks, this has gotten way too heated for the Edge.
I'm moving it to Politics, for those who would like to continue the discussion.
I'm moving it to Politics, for those who would like to continue the discussion.
