Finlandia Trophy 2012 Oct 5 - Oct 7

[sky_fly20]

some more videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/tubeyouverymuch/videos?view=0

Ice Dance Victory Ceremony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3KYzfTIG44&feature=plcp

Julia Close -up HQ FS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwKmBHTW4_0

Ladies Victory Ceremony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brPbXcMr3kI&feature=plcp

Kiira and Julia signing autographs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Bqjqr-R0Xw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDRy9Ou5HqM

 

[IleK]

because until THIS post you didn't have a first post in the eyes of the board (not the people running it, the board program itself). Once you get a post count, which you do now, you can post a link. Sorry for the frustration, but if this wasn't in place we'd have so much spam to deal with it'd choke the boards!

Well, its too late to bring this up anyway but... who is Paula?? I hope I'm not mistaken, she replied me first time when I was banned and when I told her that maybe I will post something on another occasion and with no link attached she said that from mow on I can post how many links I want because this happens only for the first post that contains a link. So, I did. I tried to post what it appears now to be my first post together with a link to Kiira's LP and I was banned again. I do understand the need on these rules, but sometimes things like these happen and it is not at all pleasant for a new comer banned once, banned twice, then maybe I shouldnt bother. But now I am here, I am good, I am a peaceful person so I dont think I'll ever give you reasons to ban me again:-D Just hope to have time to write when I feel like I have something that is worth saying.

 

[IleK]

Ok, its not Paula's fault. Doris explained me something about maintenance and reseting. Thank you Doris and thank you Mathman for welcoming!

 

[Jaana]

Adults should compete against adults and children against children, in all competition not only the big ones, otherwise the skaters will receive a wrong message about their skating.

I agree totally!!! Children like Julia should not be allowed to compete in any senior competitions.

Just hope to have time to write when I feel like I have something that is worth saying.

Write anyway, so do most of us ...

 

[AlexRus]

I' ve always been a fan of Kiira, but this year I like her more than ever.

But if other skater skates better - this otner skater (no matter of name, nation, age) must have higher place.

I think it is not fair and nor realistic to make a comparison between the three girls, at least between Kiira and Julia.

No problem in fact. See Rule 522 of "SPECIAL REGULATIONS & TECHNICAL RULES SINGLE & PAIR SKATING and ICE DANCE 2012 as accepted by the 54th Ordinary Congress June 2012". There is the major info. Other info is in ISU Communication 1724.

There are 10 years of experience that separetes them

See results of Worlds-2012. Kexin ZHANG is 10 and half years younger than Akiko SUZUKI. Difference in experience is about the same number of years as difference in age.
What is the problem that refuses them to compete?
And also there was not a problem that refused Akiko SUZUKI to win Kexin ZHANG.

making use of their imature tiny bodies to jump and spin because that is not talent,it is just a moment in time

I know about 100 Russian skater girls, and tens of other nations (in fact all best in Russia and, I believe, best of non-Russians) of Lipnitskaia's age and younger. Only one of them - Elena Radionova - is close in level to Julia.
May be, Julia and Elena are very talented?

the next year it will not be the same.

Yes. It will not be the same. It may be better.
I know Julia from 2009 March, when she was 6th at "Memorial of Stanislav Zhuk"(younger age) (it is "Russian national baby championship").
From that time season to season Julia skates better and better. And in all seasons better at end of season than at beginning of season.

And I hope that Julia's skating this season will be significantly better, than in past season (when she had 4th in the World Season Best score).

 

[IleK]

AlexRus, you seem offended by what I wrote and I am sorry If I did that. It wasnt my intention. That was my first post and I thought I should tell something about me to present myself as a figure skating fan when I said that I ve always been Kiira's fan and this year even those who are not her fans say she has two gorgeous programmes. This statement has nothing to do with other skaters, I dont make discrimination on any criteria and I am not finnish, by the way. I have no national skaters between the big names, so I kind of like everybody, and some more than the others.

Thank you for recommandation and sorry if I will not read that rule, maybe you will be kind to tell me what it says. Maybe you got me wrong or maybe not. I say it is not a fair comparison because Julia is too young to ask her to be artistic even though there are some girls who were very artistic at her age, like Sasha Cohen, or her compatriote Liza Tukt who had 2 amazing programmes last year. And in the same time Kiira is old enough to not be a jumping bean anymore. There are many examples like her, Carolina Kostner, Miki Ando who both were very good jumpers in their early years and with time they lost a big part of their jumping ability and gained on the artistic side. And I find this normal and natural.
Kexin Zhang was a senior last year and it is still unfair to make a comparison between her and Akiko, nobody said they shouldnt compete against eachother, Kexin doesnt look like a kid who's body hasn't grown yet, she has the proper age to compete against seniors, its Akiko's choice to compete at 28. You lost my point and also skipped on the part "as much as I like the little russian girls". I was amazed by Julia 2 years ago and was very happy to lets say discover her on youtube and tell the others about her that she will defintely make a name internationaly. I was happy for her achievementes from last year and maybe I expected more this year, more than just jump, spin, jump, spin. This is what I meant when I said that this is not talent, just a moment in time, she cant make PCS like this and at this competition she really got more than she deserved in PCS because there was nothing between the elments and she had no expression at all. But this os something that she will work on the following years. I never ment she didnt deserve to win. Yes, she did. But she shouldnt have been in a senior competion. Rules should be rules for everyone and every competion because they are made for the same reasons.

I truly hope that these girls, Julia, Elena and of course Liza that I love so much have enough power and strenght to fight the puberty monster. Adelina almost did it, she struggled last year and she is stil struggling but I think she almost made it. She also lost those difficult combination that she used to do in 2011 when she won every competition but Adelina is not all about the jumps and spins. She is a joy to watch and her spins are the most beautiful and gracious. If you think that I have something against the russian girls you couldnt be more wrong. I am an european girl and I root for all the european figure skaters and now the russian girls are better and hope they will make the podium at least al Euros. If there is someone I dont like that is Alena, I totally disliked her from the first time I sow her an more since she is with Nikolai. I hope the younger ones will top her this season.

I know I am off topic so I will be just a little bit more. The girls are my favourite to watch. I started with Sasha Cohen and continued now with Kiira Korpi, Alissa Czisny, Carolina Kostner. Akiko Suzuki, Eelene Gedevanishvili, Ashley Wagner, Mao Aasada, Miki Ando, Yuna Kim and the russian baies of course. I am waiting for the moment when they will not be called like this anymore. I' ve seen some amazing programmes from Kiira, Akiko, Ashley And Mao. They are all so good and there are more to come that I dont think there was a more competitive season than this that has just begun. Good luck to all of them!

 

[Adeliza]

Any videos of press conferences or interviews, anyone?

 

[let`s talk]

You lost my point

Then tell us what your point is. You are not the only one who says that grown-up 20+ women shouldn't compete with pre-puberty teen jumping beans. How is ISU supposed to set the rule if puberty comes not exactly at the same time in teen girls' life. Some face it earlier, some a little later, etc. Now the ISU has the simple rule- age in your passport. What is your offer? Or to allow gilrs to compete like in roller coasters "you should be that high to ride here"? :think:

 

[gmyers]

Then tell us what your point is. You are not the only one who says that grown-up 20+ women shouldn't compete with pre-puberty teen jumping beans. How is ISU supposed to set the rule if puberty comes not exactly at the same time in teen girls' life. Some face it earlier, some a little later, etc. Now the ISU has the simple rule- age in your passport. What is your offer? Or to allow gilrs to compete like in roller coasters "you should be that high to ride here"? :think:

I think some do want the roller coaster rule!

 

[IleK]

Then tell us what your point is. You are not the only one who says that grown-up 20+ women shouldn't compete with pre-puberty teen jumping beans. How is ISU supposed to set the rule if puberty comes not exactly at the same time in teen girls' life. Some face it earlier, some a little later, etc. Now the ISU has the simple rule- age in your passport. What is your offer? Or to allow gilrs to compete like in roller coasters "you should be that high to ride here"? :think:

I have already told you. I think I wrote enough on this subject, I dont want a PhD based on this. If I didn't make my self clear than... let's say it's my fault. It was just a point of view, nothing more, based on my personal impression after watching this competition. You are entitled to think different. I don't want to change anyone's ideas with mine. Now I am sorry I replied to AlexRus, bad idea. And this is my last post at least on this thread.

 

[AnnaTheMusician]

IleK, I agree with you! You have good arguments and if somebody didn't get your point, it's not your problem, because you made yourself clear. I think the age rule should be at least 16 or even 17, so we could see real junior and real senior skating. Jumping is not everything although many people here think so.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I think the age rule should be at least 16 or even 17, so we could see real junior and real senior skating.

That's impossible. If it really followed this, in men, it will be OK. But in Ladies, Junior level will be the highest level in figure skating and Senior level will be closer to pro-am competitions.

 

[tulosai]

How is ISU supposed to set the rule if puberty comes not exactly at the same time in teen girls' life. Some face it earlier, some a little later, etc. :think:

I didn't agree with the tone of your post but your thoughts are similar to mine. First of all, next year and after, you will need to be a year older than Julia is now. I support that. However, I do agree puberty does not hit everyone at the same time. For many skaters, it does not hit them at all the way it would hit a normal girl until after their careers are over. (A good example of this is Sasha Cohen, who, let's face it, maintained the body of a young teen throughout her competitive career and only gained weight and curves when she turned to show skating. May be Julia will be the same. Maybe she won't. Time will tell.)

The real issue is that you don't want to punish girls who do have a mature body and prevent them from competing on the senior level for too long just because you don't want to be unfair to people who are older. I think, body aside, Julia's an okay example of this. She was SO FAR beyond the current range of Juniors it would almost have been painful to watch her stay there. Say, hypothetically, that she is a Cohen and doesn't struggle much with puberty, and against all odds maintains her current jump arsenal. Does anyone really think she should have needed to stay in Juniors until she is 18- four more years? How long should she be forced to compete in Juniors to prove she will keep the jumps? I admit this is rare- but her jumping ability (whether her jumps are small, flutzed, etc or not) is also very rare.

My point, in one sentence after all this, is that any age will be arbitrary and not catch everyone who hasn't gone through puberty. It is up for older skaters to think about how to improve other components in their programs, in my opinion, not to waste time worrying or complaining about how 15 year olds can jump better.

 

[AnnaTheMusician]

That's impossible. If it really followed this, in men, it will be OK. But in Ladies, Junior level will be the highest level in figure skating and Senior level will be closer to pro-am competitions.

In which scale? Jumps? Yep, that's true. But skating is not just jumps. In Ladies, juniors may be the best jumpers that but that's all they usually have. I have never seen any program which would have been art, mature performance, real interpretion by junior skaters. The best performances has been skated by ladies >18.

 

[plushyfan]

In which scale? Jumps? Yep, that's true. But skating is not just jumps. In Ladies, juniors may be the best jumpers that but that's all they usually have. I have never seen any program which would have been art, mature performance, real interpretion by junior skaters. The best performances has been skated by ladies >18.

You are wrong. For example Oxana Baiul. She was only 16. Isn't she artistry?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TTI0fWHzC0&feature=fvwrel

 

[AnnaTheMusician]

You are wrong. For example Oxana Baiul. She was only 16. Isn't she artistry?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TTI0fWHzC0&feature=fvwrel

Well, this is not about being right or wrong, it's about opinion. Maybe I should say: "Most of the best performances has been skated by ladies >18".

And about Oksana's program: it was sweet and very beautiful. But it was ballet on the ice, it wasn't skating art. And most of all, it was the exhibition program. Of course you can show more artistry in exhibition when you don't have to concentrate to the difficult elements. But when you are mature enough, you can do the both.

Skating is like music: you can be very techincally talented already at young age but is there any interpretation, etc? Of course there are exceptions, especially when it comes to music but very often we see and hear young people who can play but who can't make music. Just like in skating. That's why I would hope the age limit in seniors should be higher. Because skating is just not counting who is the fastest, who jumps the highest jumps, who makes the least mistakes. You can't measure artistry by inches, centimeters and seconds.

 

[janetfan]

Well, this is not about being right or wrong, it's about opinion. Maybe I should say: "Most of the best performances has been skated by ladies >18".

Because skating is just not counting who is the fastest, who jumps the highest jumps, who makes the least mistakes. You can't measure artistry by inches, centimeters and seconds.

I agree but that will always be a problem with the CoP which is asking us to believe it can measure some of these things - and up to a hundredth of a point no less.

But judging is necessary and many will argue 6.0 was doing the same thing.

I rarely disagreed with the presentation marks from 6.0 - or atleast not nearly as often or as vehemently as I do with the PCS.

Maybe as I get older now my memory recalls more of what was pleasant (thowing a bone to the CoP fans)

 

[plushyfan]

Well, this is not about being right or wrong, it's about opinion. Maybe I should say: "Most of the best performances has been skated by ladies >18".

And about Oksana's program: it was sweet and very beautiful. But it was ballet on the ice, it wasn't skating art. And most of all, it was the exhibition program. Of course you can show more artistry in exhibition when you don't have to concentrate to the difficult elements. But when you are mature enough, you can do the both.

Skating is like music: you can be very techincally talented already at young age but is there any interpretation, etc? Of course there are exceptions, especially when it comes to music but very often we see and hear young people who can play but who can't make music. Just like in skating. That's why I would hope the age limit in seniors should be higher. Because skating is just not counting who is the fastest, who jumps the highest jumps, who makes the least mistakes. You can't measure artistry by inches, centimeters and seconds.

Oxana's program wasn't skating art, only ballet? I disagree again, she definitely skated. ( I can show you her SP in Lillehammer, she was artistry and she interpreted the music wonderfully.) So there are exceptions. Yes, the artistry can't measure by inches etc. Therefore the most subjective. But I think the high jumps, the less mistakes make the program more beautiful, and more artistry. And don't forget, it's a sport. If someone doesn't meet the requirements of the sports, he never will win.
But I agree with you Julia program isn't good, but she is unbeliveable talented. I think, you know Rodionova, she is 13, but she is already artistry.

 

[AnnaTheMusician]

Oxana's program wasn't skating art, only ballet? I disagree again, she definitely skated. ( I can show you her SP in Lillehammer, she was artistry and she interpreted the music wonderfully.) So there are exceptions. Yes, the artistry can't measure by inches etc. Therefore the most subjective. But I think the high jumps, the less mistakes make the program more beautiful, and more artistry. And don't forget, it's a sport. If someone doesn't meet the requirements of the sports, he never will win.
But I agree with you Julia program isn't good, but she is unbeliveable talented. I think, you know Rodionova, she is 13, but she is already artistry.

I didn't say "only" ballet, please don't turn my words upside down. I'm not native English speaker, my mother language is Finnish so there may be some mistakes in my text. But in Oksana's program, it was ballet on the ice and little bit circling between the movements. It doesn't make a program to a skating art. And it's nor worth arguing of one skater - if you think Oksana was very artistic, it's your opinion. I'm speaking of the large scale - most of the young skaters don't have that kind of artistry which comes with age.

Lipnitskaia is very technically talented, so is Radionova. Both they have artistry like their age, 13-14. Nobody requires and even expects more. They both are on their way to more mature interpretation. But still - it's the thing you can't even compare with Kiira, Alissa, Carolina, Yu-na, etc. Those young talented Russian girls aren't at the same level in interpretation and artistry as our lady skaters. For me skating is not just jumping. If we liked to compare skaters in jumps, we could forget the programs entirely. For me the good package includes the technique AND the artistry of a lady.

 

[plushyfan]

I didn't say "only" ballet, please don't turn my words upside down. I'm not native English speaker, my mother language is Finnish so there may be some mistakes in my text. But in Oksana's program, it was ballet on the ice and little bit circling between the movements. It doesn't make a program to a skating art. And it's nor worth arguing of one skater - if you think Oksana was very artistic, it's your opinion. I'm speaking of the large scale - most of the young skaters don't have that kind of artistry which comes with age.

Lipnitskaia is very technically talented, so is Radionova. Both they have artistry like their age, 13-14. Nobody requires and even expects more. They both are on their way to more mature interpretation. But still - it's the thing you can't even compare with Kiira, Alissa, Carolina, Yu-na, etc. Those young talented Russian girls aren't at the same level in interpretation and artistry as our lady skaters. For me skating is not just jumping. If we liked to compare skaters in jumps, we could forget the programs entirely. For me the good package includes the technique AND the artistry of a lady.

Oh, your english is far better than mine!!!!