Grand Prix by Sonia Bianchetti

[GF2445]

Make an educated guess.

To us we want to see the best, but would the average Joe who might stumble accross figure skating want to see six skaters from the same country compete at the grand prix final?

Maybe yes, but more often than not-no.
To the average Joe, seeing sthe top six of the same country will send a message that only this country is dominant in skating.- this does not bring much hope
Would NBC or CBC bother roadcasting to North America if this was the status quo- yes for now as they are contractually obliged to broadcast, but when the contract runs out...you never know if they will re-sign another contract for the same or even less than what they are paying now.

We need to acknowledge that there is some sort of issue and something has to change slightly.
I am sticking to my guns and say that at least a minimum of 10 nations need to participate in the JGPF/GPF combined. There were less than 10 nations competing this year.

I know that this post will get slammed and that the GPF/JGPF should not taken into account nationality, but if this trend continues with pool of nations competing becoming smaller, then we should just give up globslising the sport and go home.

Heck, we can replace the name of the GPF with Four Nations *note i am being sarcastic here

Russia, Canada, Japan and the USA
Wit occaisonally a European Country and China chucked into the mix

 

[Alba]

Would NBC or CBC bother roadcasting to North America if this was the status quo- yes for now as they are contractually obliged to broadcast, but when the contract runs out...you never know if they will re-sign another contract for the same or even less than what they are paying now.

Do you really think they would pay a penny if you bring in weaker skaters, just because they are all from different countries? I don't think so.

 

[GF2445]

Do you really think they would pay a penny if you bring in weaker skaters, just because they are all from different countries? I don't think so.

But would anyone, anywhere in the world bother to watch if only one country or a handful of countries dominate the sport- to be blunt that is how sports die out- lack of diversity.

 

[Alba]

But would anyone, anywhere in the world bother to watch if only one country or a handful of countries dominate the sport- to be blunt that is how sports die out- lack of diversity.

Well, improve the quality of the skaters, assist FS in your own country.
Are seriously suggesting that athletes should be punished because they are stronger? Because this is a punishment. Plus, it's a cheated competition. It's like ban the quads in pairs, because afterall, only canadians and chinese are doing them.

 

[evangeline]

But would anyone, anywhere in the world bother to watch if only one country or a handful of countries dominate the sport- to be blunt that is how sports die out- lack of diversity.

I'm not sure if this is true. The history of ice hockey is dominated by Canada and Russia/Soviet Union, with the USA a distant third and a small handful of European countries. But ice hockey is still popular and prosperous.

 

[merleice]

But would anyone, anywhere in the world bother to watch if only one country or a handful of countries dominate the sport- to be blunt that is how sports die out- lack of diversity.

Men's tennis has been dominated by not just a handful of countries but by essentially 3 men--Federer, Nadal and Djokovic for more than a decade and stadiums are packed, ratings are high and it continues to attract new fans globally. I would say people like to watch great rivalries and relish head to head match ups among the best, diversity of styles is more attractive than diversity of countries. Back in their day the Yags and Plush rivalry certainly generated a lot of interest internationally, I don't think the lack of diversity made people lose interest. If anything many fans seem to yearn for another great rivalry.

 

[Sandpiper]

I'd give the average Joe some credit and say he wants to see good skaters, more than he wants to see "more countries."

Anyway, out of curiosity, if we implemented Bianchetti's rule (assuming we go by qualification points, and not the horrid "Fed selects whoever they want" idea hopelessness:

Ladies:
Elena Radionova
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva
Gracie Gold - WD, replaced by Courtney Hicks (I'm not kidding)
Ashley Wagner
Rika Hongo
Satoko Miyahara

The Good: The podium would likely remain the same.
The Bad: Same three countries, just a 2/2/2 split. I can't see how this promotes figure skating. Also, a lot of people get passed over: three Russians (Anna, Yulia, Alena), and one Japanese (Kanako). Heck, if we had one more WD, Alaine Chartrand with her one bronze and one near-last-finish would get in.

Men:
Maxim Kovtun
Javier Fernandez
Tatsuki Machida
Takahito Mura
Sergei Voronov
Jason Brown

The good: Yuzuru wouldn't be in the final... so we can complain less about his GP scores. We do fit one more country in. And Javi would've won, making Spain happy.
The bad: Yuzuru wouldn't be in the final... so we've arguably robbed him of a major title. Jason is a lower-scoring skater, so the show-down would be less exciting. Javi would've won with subpar performances.

Pairs:
Stolbova/Klimov
Duhamel/Radford
Kavaguti/Smirnov
Peng/Zhang
Sui/Han
Denney/Frazier

The good: We fit in one more country. And guess who it is again?
The bad: Probably no point. A last-place qualifier in the pairs discipline is unlikely to attract attention in the US.

Ice Dance:
Chock/Bates
Weaver/Poje
Papadakis/Cizeron
Shibutani/Shibutani
Gilles/Poirier
Ilinykh/Zhiganshin

Nothing changes.

So, in conclusion: Not a huge difference in pairs/dance (except for poor Yu/Jin), but it would be a shift in singles. The worst effect in ladies, I would argue, since after WDs we'd have to go down to the eleventh place qualifier. It's not more diverse; it just waters down the competition since we've taken out multiple people who are legitimate gold/podium threats.

The effect in men would change the podium. There is the argument that Misha/Nam would've been more deserving of the spot... but two wrongs don't make a right. And ultimately, Misha--the true "small country underdog"--still doesn't get to go.

Also, for some reason, beneficiaries in every discipline seem to be from the US. I guess some would argue this system is better for drumming up skating's popularity in the States.

 

[gammarae]

But would anyone, anywhere in the world bother to watch if only one country or a handful of countries dominate the sport- to be blunt that is how sports die out- lack of diversity.

Speaking as an American and supporter of USFS: I was glued to the IceNetwork feed, watching every skater in the GP and the Final -- I love skating and skaters -- who cares if there are 6 Russians or 6 skaters from Mars -- I want to see them all.

Geographically, yeah, it was a little lopsided this year. Next time it will be lopsided in another direction. I will watch any event any time, and I tell you this: My favorite skater is the one on the ice at this moment.

 

[meteorlight8]

But would anyone, anywhere in the world bother to watch if only one country or a handful of countries dominate the sport- to be blunt that is how sports die out- lack of diversity.

This is just absolutely not true! Some of the most popular sports in the world are dominated by a handful of countries/people. Sure the underdog stories generate a lot of interest, but I've yet to see evidence of any sport dying because of total domination by the few. Usually domination also means excellence and quality, and I'd say most if not all sports fans value these over diversity. Did swimming lose out on viewership in 2008 because Micheal Phelps was winning everything? Did track n field with the domination of Jamaica and Usain Bolt? Has the FIFA World Cup become unpopular after decades of having only a few perennial favorites? How about basketball despite the USA's dominance over the years (case in point an Olympic bronze was considered utter failure for the Dream Team)? Quite the opposite I'd say! Local sports leagues like the Premier League, La Liga, NBA, NHL are WIDELY popular around the world - diversity means very little when excitement and high-level competition are being delivered.

Obviously quality AND diversity would be ideal, but IMO there shouldn't too many (some is okay, but we already have enough with Olys/Worlds/Euros etc.) artificial barriers to promote diversity at the expense of quality. Underdog stories in sports are only of interest b/c the underdog is competing/able to hold their own against the major players on a leveled playing field (e.g. Costa Rica in the World Cup, Miracle on Ice, Denis Ten and maybe in the future Michael Christian Martinez). Rules made solely to get more nations (and markedly inferior athletes) on the roster to fill a quota and finish at the bottom won't do anything to help attract viewers (except in VERY rare special circumstances such as the Jamaican bobsled team).

The suggestion of capping the GPF is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS. It's the ONE major competition left where the entries are purely merit-based. Sports should be about pushing boundaries, not lowering the bar to accommodate the less capable. The GPF isn't and shouldn't turn into a pity contest - may sound harsh but that's the beauty of sports.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I wholeheartedly disagree with her about limiting the GPF to two athletes from each country. Being the 4th best in a strong country already precludes a skater from participating in Euros and Worlds. The GPF is completely merit-based and you have to show excellence in two events to get there.

I agree that limiting it to two skaters is a bad idea. The GPF should be the top 6 skaters on the grand prix that year. Particularly in countries with deep fields like Russian ladies or Japanese men, this is fair since it offers incentives. I mean, imagine if three Russian ladies each won 2 Grand Prix events, and one of them wasn't in the final.

Euros/4CC/Worlds should have a max number of skaters from countries in the interest of time, as well as promoting skaters from other countries.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The suggestion of capping the GPF is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS. It's the ONE major competition left where the entries are purely merit-based. Sports should be about pushing boundaries, not lowering the bar to accommodate the less capable. The GPF isn't and shouldn't turn into a pity contest - may sound harsh but that's the beauty of sports.

Agreed.

Interestingly, this is what the field would have been if the skaters were capped to 2 (additions are asterisked). Note that the US would have benefited with 3 more entries (I'm onto you, Sonia! ). As for "diversifying", this would have simply added a US pairs team, a US male, a US lady, and a Japanese lady. :sarcasm:

MEN:
Kovtun RUS
Voronov RUS
Fernandez ESP
Mura JPN
Machida JPN
*Brown USA (replacing Hanyu, the eventual winner)

PAIRS
S/K RUS
D/R CAN
K/S RUS
P/Z CHN
S/H CHN
*D/F USA

ICE DANCE
No changes

LADIES (with Gold WD)
Radionova RUS
Tuktamysheva RUS
Wagner USA
Hongo JPN
*Miyahara JPN
*Hicks USA (note Hicks is only 11th in the GP standings and didn't even medal at her GPs, whereas Pogo/Lip/Leonova/Murakami all medalled)

Those who want to limit the GPF to 2 skaters/country: do you think Hicks deserved to compete, in lieu of Pogorilaya who earned a gold and a silver in her 2 GPs?

 

[MalAssada]

Here is my opinion as someone who was an average Jane doe until this season: I'm Brazilian. Brazil was part of the Olympics. Brazil got the dead last place.

This is how FS was broadcast in free TV: Only Isadora Williams was shown. She fell, she doubled her jumps, and like I said, dead last place. I rolled my eyes through the whole thing, because I had watched Lipnitskaya's European FS and even this Jane Doe could recognize talent (and I hadn't even watched Yuna!).

Then in February, the Federation for Winter Sports made an event in USA to see potential skaters ellegible for Brazil. I looked at the entries and didn't see any potential girls who could get into top 10. I have to check again, but if I'm not wrong the best skater we had was 12 years old Juvenile.

So, as a Brazilian, I don't care if the podium is a Russian sweep. I want to see good competition. Would I like to see Brazil represented in the Olympics? Heck, yes, but I don't want to see a random girl bomb and don't make it to LP.

To sum it up, I think that if athletes deserve the spot, they should get it. Limiting the spots per country should only be used when other countries may really benefit from it. Getting a last place isn't benefiting, IMO.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

With the 2-entry cap, here's who would have been added to the GPF in the past quad (the US men would have benefited the most):

2014: Brown (USA), Denney/Frazier (USA), Hicks (USA), Miyahara (JPN)
2013: Rippon (USA), Suzuki (JPN), Kostner (ITA)
2012: Abbott (USA), Amodio (FRA), Denney/Coughlin (USA)
2011: no country had more than 2 entries in all four disciplines

For the Junior GP, it's much more apparent that the disciplines are dominated by certain countries -- note that there are twice as many additional entries than the senior GPF.

2014: Chen (USA), Turzynbaeva (KAZ), Oganesian/Bardei (UKR), Koga/Boudreau Audet (JPN), Parsons/Parsons (USA), Mcnamara/Carpenter (USA)
2013: Turzynbaeva (KAZ), Kato (JPN), Aaron/Settlage (USA), Cernuschi/Ambrosini (ITA), Seguin/Bilodeau (CAN), Edwards/Pang (CAN)
2012: Kim (KOR), Aaron/Settlage (USA), Koch/Nuchtern (GER), Edwards/Pang (CAN)
2011: Cesario (USA), Bonacorsi/Mager (USA)

Interesting, senior ice dance also never had more than 2 entries from one country in the past quad (or junior men, at that).

 

[Alba]

Agreed.

Interestingly, this is what the field would have been if the skaters were capped to 2 (additions are asterisked). Note that the US would have benefited with 3 more entries (I'm onto you, Sonia! ). As for "diversifying", this would have simply added a US pairs team, a US male, a US lady, and a Japanese lady. :sarcasm:

:agree:

 

[GF2445]

I love it when people shut me down. Thanks guys.

I am still insistent- at least a minimum 10 nations need to be Represented throughout JGPF an GPF combined.

There are only six entries per discipline. Im not saying that we need to set strict quotas like Bianchetti but the JGPF and GPF combined (not each) should ideally have a minimum of 10 nations.
nit as a rule but as something the ISU can put into their goals. The ISU have development programs and seminars throughout the year so it is obvious that they have good intentions.

We'll we have to sit tight and see how the state of skating is by the next olympic cycle....

In my defense, this is only my opinion. My opinion only. I respect your opinions everypne and i nknow that i am in the minority. Do not accuse me of wantiing to ruin the grand prix final. I have no intention nor the power to do so.
Im not saying we need to lower standards, but something has to change. Only in an ideal world right?

Okay i think i killed the conversation

 

[cooper]

i agree w/ sonia bianchetti.. besides i don't want figure skating to be like rythmic gymnastics.. before even the performance you would know who will be in the top of the podium.. tbh.. the sport is already dead.. and it will never be reincarnated if 1 nation dominates.. smaller feds literally = no chance in hell EVER..

 

[dorispulaski]

Not necessarily. How about adding 3 skaters/ teams to each JGPF event and limiting skaters/teams to 3 per country? That would be the best place to encourage smaller fed participation in any case.

Leave the GPF alone?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

8 nations competed in the GPF/JGPF this year: Canada, US, Japan, France, Russia, Spain, Korea, China. And there were some close calls: if Denis Ten or Elizabet Turzynbaeva had done better, Kazhakstan would have been added. If Coomes/Buckland hadn't had a disastrous FD at NHK, then Great Britain would have been added. If Misha Ge were properly judged in his events, Uzbekistan might have made the final too.

10 nations competed last year: Canada, US, Japan, France, Russia, Spain, China, Germany, Italy, Ukraine

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Not necessarily. How about adding 3 skaters/ teams to each JGPF event and limiting skaters/teams to 3 per country? That would be the best place to encourage smaller fed participation in any case. Leave the GPF alone?

The JGPF used to have 8 entries in their final, but they cut back. Regardless of that, usually it went to a popular nation anyways. That being said, there's plenty of representation of countries on the Junior Grand Prix circuit, but the reality is, to make the final a skater needs to earn it. Not through affirmative action, so to speak.

 

[GF2445]

The JGPF used to have 8 entries in their final, but they cut back. Regardless of that, usually it went to a popular nation anyways. That being said, there's plenty of representation of countries on the Junior Grand Prix circuit, but the reality is, to make the final a skater needs to earn it. Not through affirmative action, so to speak.

I see your point. And i agree.